GoonSquad
Gadfly or Fly Food?
Joined: May 12, 2007
Age: 43
Posts: 3584
Location: International House of Paincakes...
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainy wrote: | | Quote: | Umm... employing children and paying them half-wages (because they're half size) is good for increasing profits too.
When were we ever talking about what increases profits? We are discussing what's good for society, and capitalism, as it is currently practiced, is not. (and those record profits won't last because they are destroying their market)
Here's what bleeding your workers will get you: 6.2% unemployment and an 18% poverty rate. That's what we have currently where I live. Frankly, its obscene and Americans should be ashamed that they have allowed their country to come to this... |
Hint: People don't have to, and usually aren't going to screw themselves over just for you.
| Quote: | That's nonsense. Ford wasn't a bleeding heart to be sure, but he did want to turn his workers into customers and increasing wages was a way to do that. Like I said, it was an investment in his market...
And even if it was not intentional, it still demonstrated the economy expanding effects of high wages in a consumer driven economy!
I'll say it again, CONSUMERS MUST HAVE MONEY TO SPEND. |
Intentional or not, Ford's situation isn't the same as the situation today. Doing something that worked decades ago won't necessarily work today.
Raising wages means taking something out from somewhere else, either by raising unemployment, increasing prices, or reducing company profits. I suppose the last one is more acceptable, but that really doesn't give them much incentive to do it. |
That last bit is the key.
This is why capitalism MUST be regulated--because modern capitalists are so short sighted and self-destructive. Because, while they are destroying the American market, they really aren't creating another one... Sure, the marketers are getting a hard-on dreaming of emerging markets in Latin America and Asia, but those markets will never reach the heights of the U.S. market, because their business practices won't allow for the formation of another truly robust consumer class.
What are the capitalists gonna do when they've raped the whole world?
_________________
If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.~Marcus Aurelius |
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Rainy
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 24, 2012
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| So what was the point of referencing how Henry Ford increased his profits by raising wages if you're just going to say companies should reduce their profits? |
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GoonSquad
Gadfly or Fly Food?
Joined: May 12, 2007
Age: 43
Posts: 3584
Location: International House of Paincakes...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainy wrote: | | So what was the point of referencing how Henry Ford increased his profits by raising wages if you're just going to say companies should reduce their profits? |
That was not my point at all.
My point was that America became an economic superpower because of Fordist economic policy.
Fordism (i.e. doubling wages etc.) allowed for the formation of the greatest, most prosperous middle class in the history of the world. That middle class, in turn, drove the greatest, most productive economy in the world.
This has nothing to do with short term corporate profits. It has everything to do with how to create a great, just, and prosperous SOCIETY--something modern capitalists have little interest in.
LET ME SAY IT ONE LAST TIME: CONSUMERS MUST HAVE MONEY TO SPEND.
To break it down even more:
If capitalist won't pay a living wage were are consumers supposed to get their spending money from?
Companies are already abandoning China because those uppity, ungrateful slackers want $.50/hr!
The Chinese middle class will be stillborn... What are the capitalist jackals gonna do when everyone has been bled dry?
_________________
If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.~Marcus Aurelius
Last edited by GoonSquad on Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rainy
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 24, 2012
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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You do realize that rich people get taxed heavily, and are also huge consumers, right? They wouldn't even be making their huge profits if there wasn't a massive amount of consumers spending money.
The problem isn't with capitalists being capitalists. It's the current global economic crisis that's causing your unemployment and poverty issues. |
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GoonSquad
Gadfly or Fly Food?
Joined: May 12, 2007
Age: 43
Posts: 3584
Location: International House of Paincakes...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainy wrote: | You do realize that rich people get taxed heavily, and are also huge consumers, right? They wouldn't even be making their huge profits if there wasn't a massive amount of consumers spending money.
The problem isn't with capitalists being capitalists. It's the current global economic crisis that's causing your unemployment and poverty issues. |
Capitalist CAUSED this crisis and rich people are giving me my 6.5% unemployment/18% poverty rate economy!
I don't like it. Sue me.
_________________
If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.~Marcus Aurelius |
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Rainy
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 24, 2012
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| It wasn't caused by wage rates. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29291
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| GoonSquad wrote: | | Rainy wrote: | You do realize that rich people get taxed heavily, and are also huge consumers, right? They wouldn't even be making their huge profits if there wasn't a massive amount of consumers spending money.
The problem isn't with capitalists being capitalists. It's the current global economic crisis that's causing your unemployment and poverty issues. |
Capitalist CAUSED this crisis and rich people are giving me my 6.5% unemployment/18% poverty rate economy!
I don't like it. Sue me. |
Capitalism also created the employment that shrunk by 6.7 percent.
Do you think the government could run the economy and not have have all day standing in line for food and other stuff?
ruveyn
Last edited by ruveyn on Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GoonSquad
Gadfly or Fly Food?
Joined: May 12, 2007
Age: 43
Posts: 3584
Location: International House of Paincakes...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainy wrote: | | It wasn't caused by wage rates. |
excuse me, the 18% poverty rate is absolutely caused by insufficient wages!
just to be clear, this is 18% poverty in America....not some 3rd world hellhole... well, I guess maybe it is....
_________________
If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.~Marcus Aurelius |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9184
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| GoonSquad wrote: | | If capitalist won't pay a living wage were are consumers supposed to get their spending money from? |
That's what asset bubbles and predatory loans are for. If you're not willing to provide spending money to consumers directly through wages, just give them lots of credit to work with. Then when it all comes crashing down unload the cost on government and proceed to attack said government that just bailed your ass out for "meddling in the markets and causing unemployment". Lather, rinse, and repeat. That's how the economy has worked for the past three decades. |
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Rainy
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 24, 2012
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| GoonSquad wrote: | | Rainy wrote: | | It wasn't caused by wage rates. |
excuse me, the 18% poverty rate is absolutely caused by insufficient wages!
just to be clear, this is 18% poverty in America....not some 3rd world hellhole... well, I guess maybe it is.... |
It would be lower without the recession.
By the way, you do realize that what is considered poverty in America isn't even close to what 3rd world poverty looks like, right? |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5687
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| '3rd world poverty' is the standard by which we are measuring ourselves now? |
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mcg
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 27, 2010
Age: 23
Posts: 538
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GoonSquad wrote: | | Rainy wrote: | | So what was the point of referencing how Henry Ford increased his profits by raising wages if you're just going to say companies should reduce their profits? |
That was not my point at all.
My point was that America became an economic superpower because of Fordist economic policy.
Fordism (i.e. doubling wages etc.) allowed for the formation of the greatest, most prosperous middle class in the history of the world. That middle class, in turn, drove the greatest, most productive economy in the world.
This has nothing to do with short term corporate profits. It has everything to do with how to create a great, just, and prosperous SOCIETY--something modern capitalists have little interest in.
LET ME SAY IT ONE LAST TIME: CONSUMERS MUST HAVE MONEY TO SPEND.
To break it down even more:
If capitalist won't pay a living wage were are consumers supposed to get their spending money from?
Companies are already abandoning China because those uppity, ungrateful slackers want $.50/hr!
The Chinese middle class will be stillborn... What are the capitalist jackals gonna do when everyone has been bled dry? |
Sounds like Hoover's high-wage doctrine, which exacerbated the recession in 1929. Under standard economic models, an exogenous decrease in wages actually shifts the aggregate supply curve to the right, increasing production.
Funny that people here should support this notion which has never been confirmed empirically or predicted using modern economic models. Intuition can be a dangerous thing when dealing with nonlinear dynamic systems. |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| mcg wrote: |
Sounds like Hoover's high-wage doctrine, which exacerbated the recession in 1929. Under standard economic models, an exogenous decrease in wages actually shifts the aggregate supply curve to the right, increasing production.
Funny that people here should support this notion which has never been confirmed empirically or predicted using modern economic models. Intuition can be a dangerous thing when dealing with nonlinear dynamic systems. |
Don't you think that it's still a bit too close to the financial crisis to be pretending that "standard economics models" is anything other than a branch of mathematics? |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| OP do you even realize how many people have died under Communist rule? Communism is good in theory but not in pracitce no country has been economically successful under communism. Communism is flawed at least in a democracy you have rights and you can own property thinks to Capitalism. While Capitalism is not a perfect system it is what helped America win the cold war because Communist Russia could not produce quality goods the way America did. And you can not pay every worker the same paying everyone the same hurts that countrys economy thats why Socialism never works spreading the wealth around is a bad economic idea. |
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mcg
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 27, 2010
Age: 23
Posts: 538
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | mcg wrote: |
Sounds like Hoover's high-wage doctrine, which exacerbated the recession in 1929. Under standard economic models, an exogenous decrease in wages actually shifts the aggregate supply curve to the right, increasing production.
Funny that people here should support this notion which has never been confirmed empirically or predicted using modern economic models. Intuition can be a dangerous thing when dealing with nonlinear dynamic systems. |
Don't you think that it's still a bit too close to the financial crisis to be pretending that "standard economics models" is anything other than a branch of mathematics? |
All economic models have limitations, even under normal circumstances. I'm certainly not trying to argue that a mathematical model based on relatively few parameters can perfectly describe a dynamic system. The point is that GoonSquad's claims are completely baseless. |
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