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AlienVisitor
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Sep 17, 2009
Posts: 55
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 Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: Nonverbal learning disorder (NLD) |
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Hi folks,
Here are a couple links, and please go googling for more information.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_learning_disorder
> http://ohioline.osu.edu/flm03/FS11.pdf
NLD description corresponds more or less to my situation:
I wrote 'more or less' because:
- I don't have a well-developed memory of any kind, working memory, long-term memory, whatever.
- I'm considered 'clumsy' by people around me (trouble with gymnastics, dancing, manual work, etc) BUT I was 'good' at various sports, from soccer to tennis and not a bad runner or... fighter.
Besides these 'discrepancies' between the general description of NLD and my own 'problems', here is what seems to fit the description:
- Huge gap between visual/spatial and verbal intelligences.
- Absence of mental imagery.
- Can't relate to most math, especially geometry but most algebra as well, beyond elementary math, elementary statistics. A shock to teachers, used to be very good at simple math and stats, but can't relate to any more 'advanced' mathematics.
- Very bad at producing literary work, no imagination, same for drawing and the arts included music.
- Said to have no sense of humor, as understood by most of the population.
- Trouble developing, maintaining social relationships. Had 'friends', 'girlfriends', people enter and leave my life all the time, sometimes called an hermit, loner... by others. Said to be living in his own world, and likes to be left alone, always in the corner in a group, relatives, friends, strangers, any social group.
Now how do I relate to Asperger's?
- As a child, obsessive Asperger-like interests, one I remember was memorizing the population of every town in the region. Hoped to know by heart the name of every city and the population figures of every place of the planet, but hey, very bad memory, not photographic at all, so ambition never fulfilled.
- Would not say hello to people at family meetings or to visitors at my parent's home. Secretive, reclusive as a child, still is.
- Repetitive routines, likes to eat the same food or wear the same clothes, reluctant to change.
- Said to be both insensitive and sensitive, hard to empathize (some people thought I might be a sociopath), but also very sensitive and prone to emotional outbursts. So too insensitive, too sensitive.
- Social anxiety.
- Poor speech, prefer to know what to say before entering into a dialogue with another person, otherwise, lot's of confusion.
- Talk too much or barely talk.
- Love talking about my interests to anybody, long inappropriate Asperger-like monologues. Tend to disregard what discussion partner says.
- Can be very focused. Work in IT.
- Avoid eye contact.
...etc.
Now I know this doesn't make me autistic per se, not in the clinical sense, but I can relate quite a bit to people suffering from mild forms of autism.
OK I hope you guys with issues pertaining to mental imagery have found the NLD part of my post interesting.
Regards,
AlienVisitor
PS: I'm not a native English speaker, I'm stating the obvious but I just wanted to make it clear. 
Note: I just saw the NLD sticky thread, sorry 
Last edited by AlienVisitor on Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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j0sh
NERD-NOS
Joined: Nov 19, 2008
Age: 36
Posts: 1195
Location: Tampa, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Well, I saw the Neurologist yesterday. He’s never had a patient that reported having no mental image capability to him. I find it kind of interesting that a highly recommended Neurologist that’s been in practice for 9 years has never heard this from a patient. I guess it’s not too common.
I’ll be doing a 24 hour EEG in a few weeks. They will also do an MRI of my brain. I’m really interested to see if and what differences may show on my MRI.
He will be looking for tumors, tissue damage, evidence of a past stroke, ect. My cousin died about 6 months ago from brain cancer. If a tumor is found to be the cause of me being incapable of mental images, I don’t think I will freak out. It would had to of been there since before age 3. If it hadn’t killed me yet, it would have to be malignant.
I suspect there will be some damage or abnormality in the high hemisphere. I don’t know a ton, but maybe it will be the right temporal lobe. It seems that this area of the brain plays a role in mental imagery. Stimulation of the temporal lobes can cause people to have hallucinations. Stimulating the left temporal lobe can cause auditory hallucinations. Stimulation of the right temporal lobe can cause visual hallucinations.
As far as NLD goes… I don’t fit the VIQ>PIQ difference that is common. It seems that NLD is mainly diagnosed based on examining cognitive strengths/weaknesses and behavioral symptoms. I want the neurologist to examine my brain for physical differences. I’ll discuss NLD with my other doctor. |
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AlienVisitor
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Sep 17, 2009
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| j0sh wrote: | | Well, I saw the Neurologist yesterday. He’s never had a patient that reported having no mental image capability to him. I find it kind of interesting that a highly recommended Neurologist that’s been in practice for 9 years has never heard this from a patient. I guess it’s not too common. |
Thanks a lot for your post, very interesting. Please keep us updated. |
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polymathpoolplayer
Velociraptor
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Posts: 473
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| j0sh wrote: |
I understand that. I've also seen that some think the majority of people with ASD are visual thinkers. I've seen that reflected in some of the discussions on these forums. It seems like the majority of people here are visual thinkers. Some studies have shown that people with AS usually score higher on VIQ than PIQ when there is a discrepancy.
So I'd like to know if there are people that primarily think visually, but score higher on VIQ than PIQ on IQ tests. I understand it's not supposed to work that way, but something doesn't add up. If the majority of people with AS are visual thinkers, why is it more common for them to have a higher VIQ than PIQ?
It's the flip side of my own situation. My visual thinking is impaired, but I scored higher on PIQ than VIQ. I'd like to know if anyone else has the same profile or the opposite. I see no harm in asking, even if that's not how it's supposed to work. |
Actually Aspies/Auties are extreme: most are highly visual with some who have zero visual ability (like me) |
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j0sh
NERD-NOS
Joined: Nov 19, 2008
Age: 36
Posts: 1195
Location: Tampa, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I’m scheduled for an MRI in two days. I think I know one of the things that will show up… I think the reason I cannot see any mental images is due to an abnormality in the right hippocampus.
From what I can gather, that’s where visual memory is stored. The hippocampus is part of the temporal lobe. There is a left and right temporal lobe. The left controls functions like language and emotions. The right controls visual memory and visual spacial processing.
Abnormalities in the brain can cause seizures. I had NO FREAKING IDEA that I was having seizures because the only type of seizure I knew about was the classic Tonic Colonic type that cause full body reactions. The tingles I get when I listen to music or am thinking deeply may possibly be Simple Partial Seizures and evidence of dysfunction in the temporal lobes.
I can’t really adequately explain this experience. A year ago I discovered that all this time, 99.9% of everyone I knew could actually see things in their minds. I’m baffled at how useful this basic brain function must be for learning (especially spelling). Now I may actually know why I can’t. The best comparison I can come up with is finding out when you’re 31, that you’ve been deaf and not aware of it. Then you find out why…. I can’t put words to it. |
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pgd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 17, 2010
Posts: 1624
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: Re: High Performance IQ with no visualization ability. |
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| j0sh wrote: | Hello,
I’ve been trying to make sense of this for a while. I’d appreciate any thoughts or theories that may explain this.
I have no mental imagery ability. I cannot create any images in my mind. This is with or without my eyes closed. I cannot picture colors, shapes, faces, ect. The only time I see mental images is when I am dreaming. From the researching I’ve done, it seems that almost everyone is capable of mental imagery to some degree regardless of their primary thinking style.
I expected this to greatly impact my Performance IQ score. I took the WAIS-III as part of my AS assessment. I was expecting my VIQ to be much higher than my PIQ for the above reason. But, my PIQ ended up being 14 points higher than my VIQ.
PIQ Subtests:
Picture Completion = 14
Digital Symbol Coding = 8
Block Design = 17
Matrix Reasoning = 17
Picture Arrangement = 14
It seems that Digital Symbol Coding was the only subtest that may of been impacted by not being able to visualize. And that would only be if standard way to take that portion of the test is to created a mental image of the key at the top of the paper… I don’t know if most people can do that or not.
It just seems like the IQ testing completely missed that I was missing a vital component of non-verbal information processing that just about everyone possesses.
This also got me thinking. Do any of you that have very high Verbal IQ’s compared to Performance IQ’s have visualization issues?
If yes, please try to describe your way of thinking. Do you have mind full of word knowledge that’s completely dethatched from a mental image?
If not, please try to describe your way of thinking. Do you have a massive index of mental images that are attached to facts or other types of knowledge?
Is it possible that the key to a high verbal IQ score is having superior non-verbal abilities in the area of visual imagery? It seems to me that good visualization ability could assist greatly in the Information, Similarities/Differences, and Digit Span subtests.
Does this make any sense?
Thanks,
Josh |
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Constructional Apraxia
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/apraxia/apraxia.htm
ADHD - Tirend (a FDA approved alertness aid)
Recall reading a How To (understand) book (1981) about ADHD Inattentive by C. Thomas Wild where he discussed this idea of visualization and how a FDA approved medicine (Tirend - an alertness aid - contains caffeine - 100 mg/14 other ingredients) temporarily activated parts of his brain/mind (not a cure) so he could draw accurate pictures in both black and white and color easily. Wild directly addresses the process of turning a lump of clay into a figure like a dog, horse, or human face.
Part of the ability to visualize is linked to the right hemisphere of the brain. |
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pgd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 17, 2010
Posts: 1624
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Wombat wrote: | I can visualize with photographic clarity.
Plus I could take the tune "Pop goes the weasel" and hear it played on pipe organ and bagpipes just as clearly as if it was real.
When I read a novel I see the scenes and hear the characters voices like I was watching a movie. |
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Is there is a term for what you describe.
Sounds like you could be a good theater actor.
Movie directors have that kind of artistic ability - the ability to turn a short story with many characters into a movie. |
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pgd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 17, 2010
Posts: 1624
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| j0sh wrote: | Well, I saw the Neurologist yesterday. He’s never had a patient that reported having no mental image capability to him. I find it kind of interesting that a highly recommended Neurologist that’s been in practice for 9 years has never heard this from a patient. I guess it’s not too common.
I’ll be doing a 24 hour EEG in a few weeks. They will also do an MRI of my brain. I’m really interested to see if and what differences may show on my MRI.
He will be looking for tumors, tissue damage, evidence of a past stroke, ect. My cousin died about 6 months ago from brain cancer. If a tumor is found to be the cause of me being incapable of mental images, I don’t think I will freak out. It would had to of been there since before age 3. If it hadn’t killed me yet, it would have to be malignant.
I suspect there will be some damage or abnormality in the high hemisphere. I don’t know a ton, but maybe it will be the right temporal lobe. It seems that this area of the brain plays a role in mental imagery. Stimulation of the temporal lobes can cause people to have hallucinations. Stimulating the left temporal lobe can cause auditory hallucinations. Stimulation of the right temporal lobe can cause visual hallucinations.
As far as NLD goes… I don’t fit the VIQ>PIQ difference that is common. It seems that NLD is mainly diagnosed based on examining cognitive strengths/weaknesses and behavioral symptoms. I want the neurologist to examine my brain for physical differences. I’ll discuss NLD with my other doctor. |
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Am aware that a complete lack of imagery can be associated/due to the side-effect (concussion) of a car rollover accident as well as some cases of ADHD Inattentive. In the world of hemiplegia/hemiparesis, a visualualization challenge may be called a visual-perceptual difficulty.
http://www.hemihelp.org.uk/
Suspect that the MRI will be read as normal since I do know a somewhat similar case where all EEGs were read normal, a CT scan was read normal, and a MRI was read normal but there were major visualization difficulties similar to what you describe. |
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helles
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 14, 2012
Age: 42
Posts: 845
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for bringing this issue up.
This is exactely how my brain works - no pictures at all! I only found out a couple of weeks ago, found out that I have aspergers the week before that.
I didn´t realise that it was that unusual, I thought that the visualisation thing was unusual 
I don´t know the thests you mention, I have only taken the ordinary mensa test (I´m not mensa material). I do not know how I should perform on such a test since I have dyscalculia and no ability to visualize?
I can relate to the quote earlier in this thread.
| Quote: | | The way I would describe it is being able to juggle or play with ideas without those ideas being tied to images or words. I can explain the idea in words, but I don't have to follow a sequential process in words to manipulate the idea or look at it from another angle. |
I find that I think in layers. One middle layer of "thinking aloud". Above the middle layer, one layer of "continually thinking - alllll the time". Under the middle layer I can detect two layers of thoughts - the lowermost is extremely difficult to access if I try to grab one of those thoughts it will be as slippery as a slimy fish. It might seem a bit odd, but i thoght it was the way it was done?
It is impossible for me not to think, all the time. My problem can be to dim the (uppermost layer of) thoughts. I think (this is quite new to me as well) by reading and listening to musik.
Helle |
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Rascal77s
Picnic Basket Thief
Joined: Nov 13, 2011
Posts: 2337
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: High Performance IQ with no visualization ability. |
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| Sora wrote: | Interesting.
I was thinking: How come your low score on Symbol Coding?
Because this one relies heavily on being able to memorise and recall visual information. Is that a problem for you? Visual memory?
A deficit in the ability to recall visual information might easily impair your visualisation though your visualisation abilities could be just fine with you being unable to use them because of your inability to recall images from memory/that are not in front of your eyes. |
You are absolutely right Sora. I was going to write the same thing until I read your post.
To the OP: If you have the opportunity I would recommend you take the WMS IV test and see how you do. |
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arko5
Raven
Joined: Jul 19, 2010
Age: 24
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'm completely unable to visualise things inside my head as well, or hear 'sounds', i.e. I couldn't imagine what someone's voice sounds like. It's weird in a way, for example if asked to describe even my parents I would be completely unable to; because I can't picture them. I seem to think using words, but with no actual sound to the words, it's hard to describe. I am quite envious of those who can visualise though, it must be incredibly useful, particularly with diagrams and things.
_________________
Your Aspie score: 146 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 51 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie (confirmed w/ diagnosis) |
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RazorEddie
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 19, 2012
Age: 42
Posts: 608
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| arko5 wrote: | | I'm completely unable to visualise things inside my head as well, or hear 'sounds', i.e. I couldn't imagine what someone's voice sounds like. It's weird in a way, for example if asked to describe even my parents I would be completely unable to; because I can't picture them. I seem to think using words, but with no actual sound to the words, it's hard to describe. |
I'm pretty much exactly the same. I do occasionally get vague flashes from memory but I certainly can't create an image.
Just out of interest do you get lost easily? I am terrible at navigating around unfamiliar places. A part of my job involves working on-site at factories. I have to be very careful to build a mental description of the building or I'll probably end up getting lost. I've always put this down to my inability to create a mental image of where I am.
_________________
I stopped fighting my inner demons. We're on the same side now. |
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XFilesGeek
Pretentiousness personified.
Joined: Jul 25, 2010
Posts: 1791
Location: The Oort Cloud
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This also got me thinking. Do any of you that have very high Verbal IQ’s compared to Performance IQ’s have visualization issues? |
Yes.
I can "see" images and moving pictures, but I can't actually DO anything with them.
However, I can score high on "mechanical aptitude tests" by using verbal, as opposed to visual, thinking.
Oh, and I have most traits of NVLD, but my comprehension score is too high and I have no auditory memory, so, for now, I just say I have a visual-spatial deficit.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced." |
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helles
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 14, 2012
Age: 42
Posts: 845
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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It is hard to describe, not to be able to visualise (people seem to think that I should just try harder!!). Just black is not really enough to describe it. I am not sure if it have any advantages to it?
It is a different way of thinking. I can easily work out soultions to complicated problems without thinking in pictures, by just making a combination of facts.
Helle |
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RazorEddie
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 19, 2012
Age: 42
Posts: 608
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Here is an interesting test that cropped up on another thread about lack of visualization. Answer this question:
Which is darker, lettuce or spinach?
Now how did you come up with your answer? A friend of mine who thinks almost exclusively in pictures did it by seeing the two in his head and comparing them. I did it by asking myself the questions 'What colour is lettuce?'(light green) and 'what colour is spinach?' (dark green) . I have an internal description of lettuce that includes it's colour, taste, shape etc. The same goes for spinach (including an association with Popeye!). I just pulled the relevant data out of each description.
_________________
I stopped fighting my inner demons. We're on the same side now. |
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