sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
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 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | are you saying that his ideas are not bigoted? |
Who's?
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | | Quote: | | are you saying that his ideas are not bigoted? |
Who's? |
the OP's.
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | sage_gerard wrote: | | Quote: | | are you saying that his ideas are not bigoted? |
Who's? |
the OP's. |
Well...
| Quote: | | Not saying the above-mentioned things are my beliefs, but I just don't think one's "tolerance" should ride on those things. |
Apparently they aren't his ideas.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | sage_gerard wrote: | | Quote: | | are you saying that his ideas are not bigoted? |
Who's? |
the OP's. |
Well...
| Quote: | | Not saying the above-mentioned things are my beliefs, but I just don't think one's "tolerance" should ride on those things. |
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obviously, i was talking about the beliefs he was presenting. do you think those beliefs are not bigoted?
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | obviously, i was talking about the beliefs he was presenting. do you think those beliefs are not bigoted? |
Depends on the lens you view them through.
If you take them literally, then they are bigoted.
On the other hand, you can take them as observations that "anti-bigots" prioritize retaliation over reconciliation.
That means reading this:
| Quote: | | If you oppose abortion, you hate women. |
As:
| Quote: | | You are assumed to hate women if you oppose an issue that is important to them. |
Or more generally:
| Quote: | | You are assumed to hate As if you oppose them. |
| Friedrich Nietzsche wrote: | | He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. |
If he believes the latter, he did not make bigoted statements. He made important observations that fighting bigot fiercely enough means becoming a bigot yourself.
I'm not sure which he believes, and I won't speak for him in that regard.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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i don't think i have come across anyone fighting bigotry to the point of becoming a bigot themselves. do you have an example?
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2388
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | it could be my body dying because i could not get a foetus aborted. |
This is obviously different, and a special case.
| Quote: | | and if you do not want to discuss it..... don't quote me and start arguing. |
I don't want to get too far into detail. I did want to make one quick point, along with the several others I made at the same time. I don't think that's unreasonable.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | No, it assumes that the crime rate is higher in Mexico than it is in Canada. |
so what? that doesn't mean that individual mexicans are criminals. assuming that they would be would be bigotry by definition. |
What I said was that it doesn't require any such assumption that Mexicans are by default criminals to support border security.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | You're assuming that the ideas involved are bigoted ideas. |
they are, by definition. |
What is your definition of bigotry then? Someone disagreeing with you?
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Chevand
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 21, 2008
Posts: 576
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim_Tex wrote: | | Here is what it seems the case is: |
Before I begin to explain my perspective on each of your subsequent statements, I feel I should say that, taken as a whole, I'm picking up a passive-aggressive vibe from them, directed toward people to the left of you. I won't deny that there are likely people for whom these statements ring relatively true to their ideologies-- but I think it's a bit misguided to suggest that anyone who self-identifies as "liberal" or "progressive" believes these things. Speaking as someone who, at least socially, considers himself a liberal, if you feel persecuted because of your faith or your political beliefs, I'm genuinely sorry. It is not my desire to force my ideologies upon you. I may not see eye to eye with you, but I'm of the school of thought that diversity of ideology strengthens a society, and that people with different beliefs can coexist. All I really want is the same courtesy, and the ability to have open, respectful, civil discourse.
| Quote: | | 1. You can only be tolerant if you're liberal, and not a Christian. |
This, for example, I know is patently false-- both the assertion itself, and the implication that liberals necessarily believe it as axiomatic. I've heard many arguments from the left that acknowledge that Christ himself was a teacher of peace, love, and tolerance. I personally am an agnostic; however, I have no specific complaints about Christianity. I've known many wonderful, friendly people who also happened to be Christian. My complaints are more often than not about specific people who claim to be Christian, but (counter to Jesus's teachings) show unwarranted disdain and hostility toward anyone who happens to be different. My philosophy is, respect is a two-way street-- so long as someone respects my right to be an agnostic, I respect him or her regardless of religious beliefs. When someone tries to impose his or her religion upon me, though, I won't hesitate to fight back.
| Quote: | | 2. If you oppose abortion, you hate women. |
I don't think being pro-life necessarily equates to misogyny. I disagree with it strongly, and I don't see what concern it is of anyone but the woman herself what she can and can't do with her body, but in most cases I don't call that misogyny. I will qualify, though, that I say "most cases"-- if we're talking about legislators trying to force a rape victim to carry her rapist's child for 9 months, or trying to make abortion as uncomfortable for the woman as possible with unnecessary mandatory procedures, well... then I'd personally see that as chauvinistic.
The bigger part of my objection to the pro-life movement, though, is that it seems less about commitment to the principle of "sanctity of life" and more about just another religious imposition upon others. I don't see pro-lifers protesting vociferously outside the Pentagon everytime the U.S. government ships young men and women off to war. I don't see them forming picket lines outside prisons to force state legislatures to repeal capital punishment. And with all of the abortion clinics which have been targeted for domestic terrorism and murder in the U.S., it's pretty obvious that some portion of the pro-life movement has a very selective definition of whose life is sacred and whose is not.
| Quote: | | 3. If you oppose same-sex marriage, you hate gay people. |
Again, no. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt here, and point out that opposing same-sex marriage does not equal homophobia. However, the word "hate" is a little bit of doublespeak here, because it gives the impression that a violation of civil liberties is not occurring so long as conscious antipathy toward the group in question is absent. Whatever your feelings toward the LGBT community may be, my perspective is that denying anyone the right to legally consummate a relationship with the person he or she loves is rather cruel.
| Quote: | | 4. If you support border security, you hate Mexicans. |
I'll admit, I don't really have much of a personal stake in this argument, being an American citizen who lives (with all the proper legal documentation, thank you) in Canada. I actually believe in tightening border security myself, insofar as being a deterrent against crime-- trafficking by the Mexican cartels, for example. It's a bit of a nuisance, but when I drive from here to Washington state, I want to be interrogated because it means the border patrol is doing its best to weed out offenders. But on the issue of illegal immigration specifically-- I think it's a vain pursuit.
From my experiences immigrating into Canada, I've come to the conclusion that the process of legal immigration is quite often a very complex and daunting process. That's by design, I suppose, to ensure that the immigrants who find a path to citizenship are going to make positive contributions to their adopted homeland. However, if one perceives life across the border as a vast improvement and wants it badly enough, those hurdles and roadblocks aren't going to do very much to sway them-- and actually, it might be more logical for a person in that position to jump fences and dodge the INS, rather than trying to attain citizenship the long, expensive, and painful way.
| Quote: | | 5. If you support the death penalty, you hate black people (because they are more likely to be sentenced to death than a white person who commits the same crime). |
This one surprised me a bit. I've never actually heard it before. I personally don't support capital punishment-- I think a couple consecutive life sentences without chance for parole produce pretty much the same result at the end, without the State presuming to commit an additional act of sanctioned murder on behalf of its citizens. It also reduces the possibility of accidentally killing an innocent person to nil. But I'd never even thought of considering people who disagreed with my position on this as hating black people.
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | i don't think i have come across anyone fighting bigotry to the point of becoming a bigot themselves. do you have an example? |
Sure thing, but I should add something first.
| Quote: | | He made important observations that fighting bigotry fiercely enough means becoming a bigot yourself. |
This was too ambiguous. I should have emphasized that one could be fighting perceived bigotry (you often see this through stereotypes being made when tensions are high, but real hatred is not yet practiced), or that one could fight actual bigotry (current or past) while making the assumption that a perceived oppressor is inferior or evil because of some insignificant detail. The former is sometimes practiced as reverse discrimination.
Here is an example that is kind of a mix of both: <clicky> It's really more about guilt by association, which is behind many personal experiences I've had where "being a white man =  ".
If you don't mind me typing long personal examples, I could give you some of those, too.
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2388
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Chevand wrote: | | I will qualify, though, that I say "most cases"-- if we're talking about legislators trying to force a rape victim to carry her rapist's child for 9 months, or trying to make abortion as uncomfortable for the woman as possible with unnecessary mandatory procedures, well... then I'd personally see that as chauvinistic. |
I don't want to get into this topic much, but looking at it from a pro-life perspective, there really isn't a way to distinguish between a rape victim carrying a child and a non-rape victim carrying a child. If you could say (without contradicting yourself) that it's really morally ok for the rape victim to abort, then you have to say it's ok for everyone else too.
Of course, there are a lot of people who might make an exception for rape in order to not look like the bad guy, but if they're doing that, they're being inconsistent.
| Quote: | | The bigger part of my objection to the pro-life movement, though, is that it seems less about commitment to the principle of "sanctity of life" and more about just another religious imposition upon others. I don't see pro-lifers protesting vociferously outside the Pentagon everytime the U.S. government ships young men and women off to war. I don't see them forming picket lines outside prisons to force state legislatures to repeal capital punishment. |
There are some good arguments against capital punishment, but merely believing in the sanctity of life is not one of them. Very few people get executed these days (at least in the US), and there was a supreme court case not too long ago where they said that brutal child rape was not something that could be punished with death. I don't think there's much of anything that can get a death sentence that doesn't involve killing someone, and not every murder gets punished by death. It is at the very least quite arguable that killing a killer is respecting the sanctity of life.
Sanctity of life is also not a general-purpose argument against all wars. Without going into whether any particular war is justified or not, there is such a thing as a just war, and some wars kill fewer people than would have died if they were not fought.
In neither of these two cases is one person electing to kill another for personal convenience, which is what happens (from a pro-life perspective) in the case of abortion.
| Quote: | | However, the word "hate" is a little bit of doublespeak here, because it gives the impression that a violation of civil liberties is not occurring so long as conscious antipathy toward the group in question is absent. Whatever your feelings toward the LGBT community may be, my perspective is that denying anyone the right to legally consummate a relationship with the person he or she loves is rather cruel. |
I don't want to give the impression that I'm equating the two things, however, your argument as stated would equally support the sort of relationships that NAMBLA wants. I presume that wouldn't be one of the things you'd support.
I have been considering changing my mind (which isn't very strongly made up anyway) on the subject of gay marriage, but I haven't found a logical argument to persuade me yet.
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Tim_Tex
Professor Hineybottom
Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Age: 33
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Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Here are my beliefs:
1. I am a Christian and a Republican, and I try to be the most tolerant person I can.
2. Abortion: I realize that things like rape and incest happen, and that a pregnancy can cause dangerous problems to the mother, and those things may necessitate an abortion. However, I would not encourage anyone to get one because a child would cramp one's style, for example. In those cases, I would recommend offering the child for adoption.
3. Same-Sex Marriage: As a Christian, I am aware of what Leviticus 18:22 says, but the Bible was written long before the notion of homosexuality being a choice ever came up. Some even say it may be genetic. I don't think I could oppose same-sex marriage given those facts.
4. Border Security: I don't think it targets Mexicans specifically. Since 9/11, people have been concerned that al-Qaida operatives could sneak in from either border (if anyone remembers the millennium terrorist attack planned on Los Angeles on New Year's Day 2000, they were trying to sneak in between Vancouver and Seattle, so the Canadian border should be monitored as well). However, the border with Mexico is more volatile because of the drug violence, and I think it's monitored more than the Canadian border or the Florida straits because of that.
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UnLoser
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 29, 2012
Posts: 623
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim_Tex wrote: | | Abortion: I realize that things like rape and incest happen, and that a pregnancy can cause dangerous problems to the mother, and those things may necessitate an abortion. However, I would not encourage anyone to get one because a child would cramp one's style, for example. In those cases, I would recommend offering the child for adoption. |
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who would encourage abortion because a baby would "cramp one's style". At least as long as it was someone else's style being cramped. A more important issue is: do you think that abortion should be outlawed under most/any circumstances? |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21970
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | it could be my body dying because i could not get a foetus aborted. |
This is obviously different, and a special case. |
i can give you many examples of cases that would result in death. such as when my sister was told by her abusive boyfriend that she must have an abortion or he would beat it out of her. you would be taking away her choice too.
or a severely depressed woman that becomes suicidal because of the hormonal changes of pregnancy. you would be taking away her choice as well.
there is no getting around the fact that opposing abortion means trying to decide for me what happens to my body (pretty much the same as my sister's boyfriend really. it's 2 sides of the same coin).
| Quote: | | Quote: | | and if you do not want to discuss it..... don't quote me and start arguing. |
I don't want to get too far into detail. I did want to make one quick point, along with the several others I made at the same time. I don't think that's unreasonable. |
you don't think... what's unreasonable? making a point then trying to insist that you don't want an argument. you decided to quote me and turn that into a debate. that was your choice.
| Quote: | | What I said was that it doesn't require any such assumption that Mexicans are by default criminals to support border security. |
that wasn't what the OP said. border security is different from not allowing Mexican immigrants.
| Quote: | | What is your definition of bigotry then? Someone disagreeing with you? |
read wikipedia, maybe, if you are uncertain of the definition.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
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Posts: 21970
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | | Quote: | | i don't think i have come across anyone fighting bigotry to the point of becoming a bigot themselves. do you have an example? |
Sure thing, but I should add something first.
| Quote: | | He made important observations that fighting bigotry fiercely enough means becoming a bigot yourself. |
This was too ambiguous. I should have emphasized that one could be fighting perceived bigotry (you often see this through stereotypes being made when tensions are high, but real hatred is not yet practiced), or that one could fight actual bigotry (current or past) while making the assumption that a perceived oppressor is inferior or evil because of some insignificant detail. The former is sometimes practiced as reverse discrimination.
Here is an example that is kind of a mix of both: <clicky> It's really more about guilt by association, which is behind many personal experiences I've had where "being a white man = ".
If you don't mind me typing long personal examples, I could give you some of those, too. |
nonexistent bigotry that a person is mistakenly acting on is not the same thing as opposing actual bigotry until the point that one becomes a bigot.
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2388
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | i can give you many examples of cases that would result in death. such as when my sister was told by her abusive boyfriend that she must have an abortion or he would beat it out of her. you would be taking away her choice too. |
That would be her abusive boyfriend, actually.
| Quote: | | there is no getting around the fact that opposing abortion means trying to decide for me what happens to my body |
I'm not sure how you can think that makes sense. This sort of thing is why I don't like to get into the abortion debate on the internet anymore: people imply that if you disagree with them that you must have evil plans for their body, or hate women, or something along those lines.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I don't want to get too far into detail. I did want to make one quick point, along with the several others I made at the same time. I don't think that's unreasonable. |
you don't think... what's unreasonable? |
Making one point and leaving it at that.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | What I said was that it doesn't require any such assumption that Mexicans are by default criminals to support border security. |
that wasn't what the OP said. border security is different from not allowing Mexican immigrants. |
Here is what the OP said:
| Quote: | Here is what it seems the case is:
...
4. If you support border security, you hate Mexicans. |
The OP was complaining about people assuming false things about pro-border security people and then calling them names because of it. I was supporting the OP's point by asserting exactly what you just said: that "border security is different from not allowing Mexican immigrants".
| Quote: | | Quote: | | What is your definition of bigotry then? Someone disagreeing with you? |
read wikipedia, maybe, if you are uncertain of the definition. |
You asserted that certain ideas were clearly bigoted when they were clearly not. I was wondering if you were using a special definition of bigotry.
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