Adults with Aspergers Seem 'Normal' to Me

Page 23 of 25 [ 398 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25  Next

nessa238
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,908
Location: UK

29 Apr 2012, 6:17 am

Verdandi wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
No, you patronised Joe90 to within an inch of her life, I called you out on it and as a result you have back-tracked and posted in a more respectful manner towards her

So job done I'd say! :)


I did not consider that what I said might be taken that way, which is why I said that. But I did not backtrack. I see you continue to read things between the lines that are simply not there. That is to say, intentions.

I am not unreasonable. If you tell me that I am being rude to someone and I do not intend to be rude, I will do my best to stop. This is not backtracking. I am not sure whether I should trust your perspective on how I come across to Joe90, but it couldn't hurt to at least clarify my actual intentions, rather than whatever you're trying to read into my actions.

You have spent much of this thread making condescending remarks toward any number of people who do not adopt your preferred and suggested perspective toward having autism, and you accuse those who describe impairments more severe than yours of faking or playing games.

Quote:
Autism is predominantly a social communication disorder - you saying it isn't won't change that fact

"Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism


Yes, the people who define autism place a greater value on the social aspects of autism and tend to gloss over the many other traits relevant to autism. It is a disorder with social and communication-related elements, but it has many other features as well. Consider that sensory sensitivities have been identified as a part of autism going back to Kanner's research, but it's only in the DSM-5 that this particular trait was included in the diagnostic criteria. Executive dysfunction relevant to autism still hasn't been included (except peripherally, by identifying particular traits related to it - such as focused interests).

Some researchers are even approaching the question of what autism is beyond simply a "social communication disorder."

Anyway, in the DSM-5, autism will be autism spectrum disorder. Social communication disorder will be its own disorder separate from autism.


As I said, it's pointless interacting further as you've blithely decided to re-write the entire canon of autism knowledge and research to make social communication difficulties not the main thing in autism! You've even suggested they are something that needs to be assessed outside of the autism diagnosis completely! What point the autism diagnsois at all if people like you just jettison major parts of it that you feel aren't so important??

You are proof positive of the completely arbitary interpretations of the whole condition!

I'm sure you'll have a new interpretation of it all tomorrow as you seem adept at twisting the facts to suit your argument.

I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!

With a mind like yours, you'd make a perfect politician!

Unlike most others I don't buy the BS but nice try! :D



NarcissusSavage
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 675

29 Apr 2012, 7:00 am

nessa238 wrote:
Autism is predominantly a social communication disorder - you saying it isn't won't change that fact

"Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

There's no intelligent discussion to be had with a person who'd argue black is white - it becomes meaningless and pointless!


Sorry to point this out. But...

Quote:
"Autism is a disorder of neural development


It is not, by the definition you provided, a disorder of social communication, predominantly or otherwise.

It is a disorder of "neural development" which is characterized by "impaired" social interaction and communication, as well as characterized by restricted and repetitive behavior. So, disorder of neural development. Of which has two equally important characteristics. There is no predominating anything, other than neural development disorder.

But I agree, there is no intelligent conversation to be had. And not because you are claiming black is white...but because you are angry and hostile to people on this site in general. Calm your aggression, open your mind to the point of view and opinions of other people, and then we can have a conversation that has a point and is meaningful.



NarcissusSavage
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 675

29 Apr 2012, 7:10 am

nessa238 wrote:
As I said, it's pointless interacting further as you've blithely decided to re-write the entire canon of autism knowledge and research to make social communication difficulties not the main thing in autism! You've even suggested they are something that needs to be assessed outside of the autism diagnosis completely! What point the autism diagnsois at all if people like you just jettison major parts of it that you feel aren't so important??

You are proof positive of the completely arbitary interpretations of the whole condition!

I'm sure you'll have a new interpretation of it all tomorrow as you seem adept at twisting the facts to suit your argument.

I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!

With a mind like yours, you'd make a perfect politician!

Unlike most others I don't buy the BS but nice try! :D


I'm not a moderator, but I will contact them if this type of attack continues.

I urge you to please be more considerate and less insulting. I understand that sometimes things can get heated and maybe you feel under pressure because you feel somehow your ego or self image is being altered by whatever has gone on thus far in this thread.

But I have just read through it, and I can assure you, as a more or less objective reader, you are being hostile Nessa. And it would be incredible if you could please stop. Any point you are trying to make is going to get lost by the overshadowing of personal attacks you are making, or by the disregard you are showing for the perspective and thoughts of other members.



nessa238
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,908
Location: UK

29 Apr 2012, 7:16 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
Autism is predominantly a social communication disorder - you saying it isn't won't change that fact

"Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

There's no intelligent discussion to be had with a person who'd argue black is white - it becomes meaningless and pointless!


Sorry to point this out. But...

Quote:
"Autism is a disorder of neural development


It is not, by the definition you provided, a disorder of social communication, predominantly or otherwise.

It is a disorder of "neural development" which is characterized by "impaired" social interaction and communication, as well as characterized by restricted and repetitive behavior. So, disorder of neural development. Of which has two equally important characteristics. There is no predominating anything, other than neural development disorder.

But I agree, there is no intelligent conversation to be had. And not because you are claiming black is white...but because you are angry and hostile to people on this site in general. Calm your aggression, open your mind to the point of view and opinions of other people, and then we can have a conversation that has a point and is meaningful.


Yes I was waiting for someone to back up her point! Lol

I've posted a lot of interesting intellectual ideas on this thread yet only one person has shown any interest in them

That tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about the mindset of people on here

You (and others with closed minds) have no real interest in the intellect or intellectual ideas full stop - just wearing others down until they agree with your tediously conformist (and often just plain irrational!) point of view

Well it aint happening with me! - you'll be happy to know that most people in society and on this site are conformist drones but I have my own ideas about things and respect only INTELLIGENT people who respect other peoples' intellectual ideas

So by all means continue trying to re-inforce the status quo of anti-intellectualism that exists on this forum/the world in general and I'll read something more interesting!

You bet I'm angry at having to live in such a stupid society with such stupid, unenquiring minds!

I'm trying to help people to think more widely than the self-important opinions of idiots on forums but it's a lost cause!

People will need to read this thread right from the start to see what/who I'm talking about.

I don't have to think in ANY particular way to suit you or anyone on this forum - I don't toe the
party line like the conformist herd on here - I'm an individual and if you have even the slightest grasp of history you will know that the individual thinker is positively loathed by the majority for being just that - an individual!

Most people are intellectually asleep and you are no different from the rest



Last edited by nessa238 on 29 Apr 2012, 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

nessa238
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,908
Location: UK

29 Apr 2012, 7:23 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
As I said, it's pointless interacting further as you've blithely decided to re-write the entire canon of autism knowledge and research to make social communication difficulties not the main thing in autism! You've even suggested they are something that needs to be assessed outside of the autism diagnosis completely! What point the autism diagnsois at all if people like you just jettison major parts of it that you feel aren't so important??

You are proof positive of the completely arbitary interpretations of the whole condition!

I'm sure you'll have a new interpretation of it all tomorrow as you seem adept at twisting the facts to suit your argument.

I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!

With a mind like yours, you'd make a perfect politician!

Unlike most others I don't buy the BS but nice try! :D


I'm not a moderator, but I will contact them if this type of attack continues.

I urge you to please be more considerate and less insulting. I understand that sometimes things can get heated and maybe you feel under pressure because you feel somehow your ego or self image is being altered by whatever has gone on thus far in this thread.

But I have just read through it, and I can assure you, as a more or less objective reader, you are being hostile Nessa. And it would be incredible if you could please stop. Any point you are trying to make is going to get lost by the overshadowing of personal attacks you are making, or by the disregard you are showing for the perspective and thoughts of other members.


I've seen little to no regard or perspective taking on my views so your demand for respect seems to only work one way

I'd be positively ecstatic to be banned from this site

I'm trying to give people some useful information before I carry on with my life unburdened by the Asperger label

Being banned will be utterly symbolic of all I've said in this thread!

So go for it! - it will be like an autistic crucifixion of the resident heretic - I'm loving the idea!

Intolerance towards others but not towards you eh? :wink:



RLgnome
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 25 Jul 2011
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 118

29 Apr 2012, 7:30 am

nessa238 wrote:
I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!


And you accuse others of patronizing you, and not taking you seriously?

Get down from your pedestal. You don't come across as any more intelligent than the rest here. You also don't come across as very knowledgeable, despite your own thinking so. You use the classic technique of shutting down every opponent by saying you're just trying to have an intelligent debate, which implies that everyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent and/or unreasonable. From your argument, they're also lazy liars (or at least they seduced themselves into thinking they have problems you deny exist). You seem to have read the diagnostic manuals, and some psychiatry-hostile literature, while not really knowing much about autism other than the social factors. Despite overwhelming evidence and clinical experience, you've decided to view other factors as "not trying hard enough" or "making up problems". And then you accuse people for going against evidence, when they point out that social dysfunction is not the *predominant* factor, because you don't understand the word "predominant". It is *characterized* by (among other things) social dysfunction, but the other factors are equal (or sometimes bigger) in extent, though not as visible. Diagnostic manuals are exactly what the term implies - manuals to help a professional make a *diagnosis*. Social dysfunction is often so visible it plays the biggest (but never the only) part in *diagnosis*. That doesn't mean social dysfunction always makes up the biggest part of that person's *challenges*. Other literature confirms that.

And to bring up one specific example, you make comparisons that proves your lack of knowledge of human neurology (note: I'm just a simple technology student, but at least I'm not trying to revolutionize autism research by claiming the knowledge acquired the last few decades is wrong). You asked someone who's not always able to leave his/her house to buy food, whether they'd flee if the house was on fire. The basic fact that those are two situations interpreted totally differently by the brain, was beyond you. A fire causes an adrenaline reaction, which activates other instinct than mere hunger. By the time anything similar happens from hunger, you're almost too weak to move. Those behaviors are even managed by different areas in the brain. You also wasn't aware that some people (not necessarily autistic people, either) freeze in those situations. Do you think freezing is because they're not trying hard enough, too?

But unless I lost something, you didn't bother to answer that rebuttal. Instead, you chose other ways to blame your opponents of being less intelligent and/or hostile. That's yet another dirty debate technique; ignore arguments you know are better than yours, keep claiming you're right, and find other quotes to prove your points. Or just stop arguing all together, and just repeat your own points, claiming you're the intelligent part of the discussion.

Try to read something as basic as Tony Attwood's The Complete Guide to Asperger Syndrome. Then come back and tell us his decades-long experience with autism (and therefore also executive dysfunction) is wrong, because you solved your own problems by trying harder.

Oh, and sorry if I'm coming along a bit harsh. I'm getting tired of reading your recycled arguments, even after people have proved them wrong. You've said you think it's in our heads (which, ironically it is, but in quite another sense), and if you think that, nothing we say will convince you. Your position is noted, there's no point in repeating it over and over again. Note that I'm not trying to shut you down - if you come up with anything actually new, by all means post it.



nessa238
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,908
Location: UK

29 Apr 2012, 7:39 am

RLgnome wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!


And you accuse others of patronizing you, and not taking you seriously?

Get down from your pedestal. You don't come across as any more intelligent than the rest here. You also don't come across as very knowledgeable, despite your own thinking so. You use the classic technique of shutting down every opponent by saying you're just trying to have an intelligent debate, which implies that everyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent and/or unreasonable. From your argument, they're also lazy liars (or at least they seduced themselves into thinking they have problems you deny exist). You seem to have read the diagnostic manuals, and some psychiatry-hostile literature, while not really knowing much about autism other than the social factors. Despite overwhelming evidence and clinical experience, you've decided to view other factors as "not trying hard enough" or "making up problems". And then you accuse people for going against evidence, when they point out that social dysfunction is not the *predominant* factor, because you don't understand the word "predominant". It is *characterized* by (among other things) social dysfunction, but the other factors are equal (or sometimes bigger) in extent, though not as visible. Diagnostic manuals are exactly what the term implies - manuals to help a professional make a *diagnosis*. Social dysfunction is often so visible it plays the biggest (but never the only) part in *diagnosis*. That doesn't mean social dysfunction always makes up the biggest part of that person's *challenges*. Other literature confirms that.

And to bring up one specific example, you make comparisons that proves your lack of knowledge of human neurology (note: I'm just a simple technology student, but at least I'm not trying to revolutionize autism research by claiming the knowledge acquired the last few decades is wrong). You asked someone who's not always able to leave his/her house to buy food, whether they'd flee if the house was on fire. The basic fact that those are two situations interpreted totally differently by the brain, was beyond you. A fire causes an adrenaline reaction, which activates other instinct than mere hunger. By the time anything similar happens from hunger, you're almost too weak to move. Those behaviors are even managed by different areas in the brain. You also wasn't aware that some people (not necessarily autistic people, either) freeze in those situations. Do you think freezing is because they're not trying hard enough, too?

But unless I lost something, you didn't bother to answer that rebuttal. Instead, you chose other ways to blame your opponents of being less intelligent and/or hostile. That's yet another dirty debate technique; ignore arguments you know are better than yours, keep claiming you're right, and find other quotes to prove your points. Or just stop arguing all together, and just repeat your own points, claiming you're the intelligent part of the discussion.

Try to read something as basic as Tony Attwood's The Complete Guide to Asperger Syndrome. Then come back and tell us his decades-long experience with autism (and therefore also executive dysfunction) is wrong, because you solved your own problems by trying harder.

Oh, and sorry if I'm coming along a bit harsh. I'm getting tired of reading your recycled arguments, even after people have proved them wrong. You've said you think it's in our heads (which, ironically it is, but in quite another sense), and if you think that, nothing we say will convince you. Your position is noted, there's no point in repeating it over and over again. Note that I'm not trying to shut you down - if you come up with anything actually new, by all means post it.


Try reading my replies as well

I read Tony Attwood's book years ago - Newsflash - he's made an excellent career out of patronising you all! Try getting a job in the same department of whatever organisation he works in, as an autistic person - good luck with that!

I wonder in fact how many autistic people (in paid employment) he works alongside full stop? I can guarantee not many!

These 'autism gurus' have several common attributes:-

1. They never have autism themselves
2. They make an exceedingly nice profit from books and on the lecture circuit
3. An autistic person will never achieve the same status or level of success as them
due to the very fact that the whole autism industry, while based on autistic people, is inherently biased against them ie they want to talk about you to other NTs but not actually to you

Discuss!



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

29 Apr 2012, 7:52 am

nessa238 wrote:
As I said, it's pointless interacting further as you've blithely decided to re-write the entire canon of autism knowledge and research to make social communication difficulties not the main thing in autism! You've even suggested they are something that needs to be assessed outside of the autism diagnosis completely! What point the autism diagnsois at all if people like you just jettison major parts of it that you feel aren't so important??


I have my own opinion formed by my own experiences and interactions with other autistic people. I am not rewriting the entire canon of autism knowledge, I am referring to knowledge that already exists and pointing out how it's neglected in terms of how autism is perceived and diagnosed.

Quote:
You are proof positive of the completely arbitary interpretations of the whole condition!


:roll:

Quote:
I'm sure you'll have a new interpretation of it all tomorrow as you seem adept at twisting the facts to suit your argument.


My arguments are consistent. I have said several times that I believe autism is predominantly a processing disorder that impacts every part of the brain - hence sensory processing issues, social skills issues, adaptive skills issues, executive functions, emotional processing, and the tendency toward particular kinds of co-morbid conditions (such as depression, anxiety, and ADHD, for three examples). I have said this other times on this forum, and this is all I am saying now. I have an informed opinion about autism and the state of autism research, why shouldn't I express my opinion? That opinion is that while the social and communication deficits are valid and are impairing, they are not the primary deficits in autism.

Quote:
I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!


Why would I convince myself of something that has been true for decades? How can you possibly know what it's like to be me? What makes you think you have the slightest understanding of what I deal with on a daily basis? I don't have to convince myself that it's possible for me to do this, I am simply reporting a fact about my life.

In any event, I did not claim that I was completely incapable of going grocery shopping without someone to remind me to do so. I can do it, and have done it in the past. The question is a matter of getting them in a timely and routine manner as opposed to a haphazard manner that is sometimes timely and sometimes can lead to me going without food for 3-4 days before hunger drives me to buy something. It is simply an example of support that would be helpful. And the truth is I do have this kind of support already, although it is informal in that it is other people I live with who do this, rather than an aide.

I am not, however, psychotic. I cannot convince myself that I am an alien from another planet because I simply am not an alien from another planet. There is no comparison between these two items.

Quote:
With a mind like yours, you'd make a perfect politician!

Unlike most others I don't buy the BS but nice try! :D


You say you're not a conformist, but truthfully I have encountered many more people with your attitudes about disability than I ever have who shared my attitudes about disability. Insistent denial that impairments could be real, insistence that seeing one's self as disabled is "playing the victim," insistence that if you refuse to acknowledge any impairments then they don't exist. Your rather negative attitudes toward disability and disabled people are fairly commonplace and not hard to encounter at all. You're not a rebel or a nonconformist as far as I can tell.

It's actually inconsistent that you would claim that while berating me for daring to hold a perspective on what autism is that differs from your wikipedia quote. So is it only good to "go against the crowd" when it's you doing it, but if I do it, then I am not worth talking to because my definition of autism does not agree with yours? This is bizarrely inconsistent and illogical on its own, but is consistent with many of the things you have accused me of in this and other posts in this thread.

I have no doubt you will try to twist my words again, as that seems to be one of the very few rhetorical options you resort to when faced with disagreement., I at least want it on record that it is in fact you who is twisting words in this thread.



NarcissusSavage
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 675

29 Apr 2012, 7:57 am

nessa238 wrote:
RLgnome wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!


And you accuse others of patronizing you, and not taking you seriously?

Get down from your pedestal. You don't come across as any more intelligent than the rest here. You also don't come across as very knowledgeable, despite your own thinking so. You use the classic technique of shutting down every opponent by saying you're just trying to have an intelligent debate, which implies that everyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent and/or unreasonable. From your argument, they're also lazy liars (or at least they seduced themselves into thinking they have problems you deny exist). You seem to have read the diagnostic manuals, and some psychiatry-hostile literature, while not really knowing much about autism other than the social factors. Despite overwhelming evidence and clinical experience, you've decided to view other factors as "not trying hard enough" or "making up problems". And then you accuse people for going against evidence, when they point out that social dysfunction is not the *predominant* factor, because you don't understand the word "predominant". It is *characterized* by (among other things) social dysfunction, but the other factors are equal (or sometimes bigger) in extent, though not as visible. Diagnostic manuals are exactly what the term implies - manuals to help a professional make a *diagnosis*. Social dysfunction is often so visible it plays the biggest (but never the only) part in *diagnosis*. That doesn't mean social dysfunction always makes up the biggest part of that person's *challenges*. Other literature confirms that.

And to bring up one specific example, you make comparisons that proves your lack of knowledge of human neurology (note: I'm just a simple technology student, but at least I'm not trying to revolutionize autism research by claiming the knowledge acquired the last few decades is wrong). You asked someone who's not always able to leave his/her house to buy food, whether they'd flee if the house was on fire. The basic fact that those are two situations interpreted totally differently by the brain, was beyond you. A fire causes an adrenaline reaction, which activates other instinct than mere hunger. By the time anything similar happens from hunger, you're almost too weak to move. Those behaviors are even managed by different areas in the brain. You also wasn't aware that some people (not necessarily autistic people, either) freeze in those situations. Do you think freezing is because they're not trying hard enough, too?

But unless I lost something, you didn't bother to answer that rebuttal. Instead, you chose other ways to blame your opponents of being less intelligent and/or hostile. That's yet another dirty debate technique; ignore arguments you know are better than yours, keep claiming you're right, and find other quotes to prove your points. Or just stop arguing all together, and just repeat your own points, claiming you're the intelligent part of the discussion.

Try to read something as basic as Tony Attwood's The Complete Guide to Asperger Syndrome. Then come back and tell us his decades-long experience with autism (and therefore also executive dysfunction) is wrong, because you solved your own problems by trying harder.

Oh, and sorry if I'm coming along a bit harsh. I'm getting tired of reading your recycled arguments, even after people have proved them wrong. You've said you think it's in our heads (which, ironically it is, but in quite another sense), and if you think that, nothing we say will convince you. Your position is noted, there's no point in repeating it over and over again. Note that I'm not trying to shut you down - if you come up with anything actually new, by all means post it.


Try reading my replies as well

I read Tony Attwood's book years ago - Newsflash - he's made an excellent career out of patronising you all! Try getting a job in the same department of whatever organisation he works in, as an autistic person - good luck with that!

I wonder in fact how many autistic people (in paid employment) he works alongside full stop? I can guarantee not many!

These 'autism gurus' have several common attributes:-

1. They never have autism themselves
2. They make an exceedingly nice profit from books and on the lecture circuit
3. An autistic person will never achieve the same status or level of success as them
due to the very fact that the whole autism industry, while based on autistic people, is inherently biased against them ie they want to talk about you to other NTs but not actually to you

Discuss!


Totally random, but it just occurred to me I think I know what's going on here.

You were misdiagnosed. You are not autistic, you are schizophrenic. You should consult a professional about that; there is some promising work and therapies available for that disorder. I think it can even be partially or completely medicinally treated.


The misplaced hostility, the paranoid thought patterns, mixing up the order and causality of events, misplacing or interweaving multiples people’s posts as having the same hive mind thinking, lack of understanding of the mind of another.

Schizophrenia is sometimes mixed up with autism, as some of the symptoms can present in similar ways, and to a not so awesome mental health professional...well, you know, mistakes happen.

Maybe you could look into it and its related disorders and consult someone for a reevaluation; it might help you out more than a misdiagnosis of autism ever could.



Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

29 Apr 2012, 8:02 am

nessa238 wrote:
Try reading my replies as well

I read Tony Attwood's book years ago - Newsflash - he's made an excellent career out of patronising you all! Try getting a job in the same department of whatever organisation he works in, as an autistic person - good luck with that!

I wonder in fact how many autistic people (in paid employment) he works alongside full stop? I can guarantee not many!

These 'autism gurus' have several common attributes:-

1. They never have autism themselves
2. They make an exceedingly nice profit from books and on the lecture circuit
3. An autistic person will never achieve the same status or level of success as them
due to the very fact that the whole autism industry, while based on autistic people, is inherently biased against them ie they want to talk about you to other NTs but not actually to you

Discuss!


This is not controversial. It is in fact a common criticism of the autism community by the autistic community. A friend of mine who is a member of ASAN is actually working to improve this situation locally to him, in terms of improving how autism and autistic people are dealt with, and it's been frustrating work for him. I am sure many members of ASAN are working at this. And it is something that has been brought up repeatedly by multiple bloggers and authors.

This doesn't really mean that anything Tony Attwood has written is specifically incorrect (although the fact that some of the things he has written really are incorrect achieves that already), it does reflect something that is all too true about autism research and the autism community.

There is some change, although it varies. Michelle Dawson has worked with Dr. Laurent Mottron, and contributed to several of his research papers (wikipedia says he estimates she contributes approximately 20%).

I am not sure who I'd recommend for you to read. I would have to assume you're engaging in good faith, which at this point is a nigh-insurmountable barrier for me. Much more difficult than shopping for food.



RLgnome
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 25 Jul 2011
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 118

29 Apr 2012, 8:33 am

nessa238 wrote:
Try reading my replies as well


I have. Diligently. But I'm starting to suspect you don't read your own replies.

Quote:
I read Tony Attwood's book years ago - Newsflash - he's made an excellent career out of patronising you all! Try getting a job in the same department of whatever organisation he works in, as an autistic person - good luck with that!


Unless you're point to something he's been saying to media (I'm not Internet stalking the guy), or he's suddenly changed his attitude, your definition of "to patronize" is to acknowledge someone has problems. His books are respectful and show great care for his patients, and he's one of the few specialists I've seen that makes a priority out of quoting autistic people instead of just flagging his own theories without bothering what the patients would have to say.

I'm aware you think you're not having problems of any kind. I'm aware you think you've seen the 'light'. And the rest of us are stupid or not intelligent not to see it. It could be you're right about your own problems. Or you could be in denial (I prefer not to make assumptions like that, but your aggressiveness has made the thought occur to me), and that will backfire sooner or later. But that's none of my concern. Your consistently condescending and patronizing tone against people with AS, however, *is* my concern.

Quote:
I wonder in fact how many autistic people (in paid employment) he works alongside full stop? I can guarantee not many!


I don't make speculations like that. Feel free to e-mail him and ask. At least he lets autistic people have a say in his book. Would you let anyone of us have our say in your book?

Quote:
These 'autism gurus' have several common attributes:-

1. They never have autism themselves


Some of the most widely quoted 'autism gurus' have autism. They may not be therapists, but they're most definitely in the 'curriculum' of basic literature on autism. Temple Grandin and Liane Holliday Willey are two prime examples.

Quote:
2. They make an exceedingly nice profit from books and on the lecture circuit


So what? They would've made more money if they focused on more 'high prestige' areas. Most of them are very talented people, and chose to work in this field for a reason. They would probably have made money in any area. I'm glad to have people like that fighting my case.

Quote:
3. An autistic person will never achieve the same status or level of success as them
due to the very fact that the whole autism industry, while based on autistic people, is inherently biased against them ie they want to talk about you to other NTs but not actually to you


Paranoid nonsense. There is no 'autism industry', at least I've never seen one. There are plenty of diagnoses society would rather have an increase of, since autism is expensive, difficult to relate to, and can't be written off as hopeless cases, since even severely autistic children often are annoyingly talented (yes, yes, I'm aware that's not always the case, that's why i used the word 'often' - often compared to other severe disabilities). With things like ADHD, a pill will resolve most of the problems in a huge majority of cases. That's cheap, and easier to relate to.

For this exact reason, many of us are constantly fighting to get the support we *need*, because we meet this attitude every week. "Try harder!" "Try being independent for once!" "Many people share your problems, you just have a slightly different thinking style!"

That attitude kills people, or at least makes them severely depressed. And it's not new. You're not revolutionary. You're recycling old, and very common, prejudice.

Apparently you want to be banned to prove your own 'point'. Newsflash: That's a common symptom of an Internet troll. And I'm losing my dinner appointment. RLgnome out.



nessa238
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,908
Location: UK

29 Apr 2012, 9:05 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:
Totally random, but it just occurred to me I think I know what's going on here.

You were misdiagnosed. You are not autistic, you are schizophrenic. You should consult a professional about that; there is some promising work and therapies available for that disorder. I think it can even be partially or completely medicinally treated.


The misplaced hostility, the paranoid thought patterns, mixing up the order and causality of events, misplacing or interweaving multiples people’s posts as having the same hive mind thinking, lack of understanding of the mind of another.

Schizophrenia is sometimes mixed up with autism, as some of the symptoms can present in similar ways, and to a not so awesome mental health professional...well, you know, mistakes happen.

Maybe you could look into it and its related disorders and consult someone for a reevaluation; it might help you out more than a misdiagnosis of autism ever could.


LOL!

That's given me the best laugh of the day!

Why on earth would I unburden myself with one diagnosis to then saddle myself with another that is even more spurious than the first??

Unlike you, I want to live my life authentically as ME, not some textbook-designated version of me!

You might need to use Aspergers as some kind of mental crutch to explain and excuse your difficulties but I'll stand or fall by my own efforts thanks very much!



nessa238
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,908
Location: UK

29 Apr 2012, 9:13 am

RLgnome wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
Try reading my replies as well


I have. Diligently. But I'm starting to suspect you don't read your own replies.

Quote:
I read Tony Attwood's book years ago - Newsflash - he's made an excellent career out of patronising you all! Try getting a job in the same department of whatever organisation he works in, as an autistic person - good luck with that!


Unless you're point to something he's been saying to media (I'm not Internet stalking the guy), or he's suddenly changed his attitude, your definition of "to patronize" is to acknowledge someone has problems. His books are respectful and show great care for his patients, and he's one of the few specialists I've seen that makes a priority out of quoting autistic people instead of just flagging his own theories without bothering what the patients would have to say.

I'm aware you think you're not having problems of any kind. I'm aware you think you've seen the 'light'. And the rest of us are stupid or not intelligent not to see it. It could be you're right about your own problems. Or you could be in denial (I prefer not to make assumptions like that, but your aggressiveness has made the thought occur to me), and that will backfire sooner or later. But that's none of my concern. Your consistently condescending and patronizing tone against people with AS, however, *is* my concern.

Quote:
I wonder in fact how many autistic people (in paid employment) he works alongside full stop? I can guarantee not many!


I don't make speculations like that. Feel free to e-mail him and ask. At least he lets autistic people have a say in his book. Would you let anyone of us have our say in your book?

Quote:
These 'autism gurus' have several common attributes:-

1. They never have autism themselves


Some of the most widely quoted 'autism gurus' have autism. They may not be therapists, but they're most definitely in the 'curriculum' of basic literature on autism. Temple Grandin and Liane Holliday Willey are two prime examples.

Quote:
2. They make an exceedingly nice profit from books and on the lecture circuit


So what? They would've made more money if they focused on more 'high prestige' areas. Most of them are very talented people, and chose to work in this field for a reason. They would probably have made money in any area. I'm glad to have people like that fighting my case.

Quote:
3. An autistic person will never achieve the same status or level of success as them
due to the very fact that the whole autism industry, while based on autistic people, is inherently biased against them ie they want to talk about you to other NTs but not actually to you


Paranoid nonsense. There is no 'autism industry', at least I've never seen one. There are plenty of diagnoses society would rather have an increase of, since autism is expensive, difficult to relate to, and can't be written off as hopeless cases, since even severely autistic children often are annoyingly talented (yes, yes, I'm aware that's not always the case, that's why i used the word 'often' - often compared to other severe disabilities). With things like ADHD, a pill will resolve most of the problems in a huge majority of cases. That's cheap, and easier to relate to.

For this exact reason, many of us are constantly fighting to get the support we *need*, because we meet this attitude every week. "Try harder!" "Try being independent for once!" "Many people share your problems, you just have a slightly different thinking style!"

That attitude kills people, or at least makes them severely depressed. And it's not new. You're not revolutionary. You're recycling old, and very common, prejudice.

Apparently you want to be banned to prove your own 'point'. Newsflash: That's a common symptom of an Internet troll. And I'm losing my dinner appointment. RLgnome out.


Quote of the day:-

"With things like ADHD, a pill will resolve most of the problems in a huge majority of cases."

:roll:



NarcissusSavage
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 675

29 Apr 2012, 9:16 am

nessa238 wrote:
NarcissusSavage wrote:
Totally random, but it just occurred to me I think I know what's going on here.

You were misdiagnosed. You are not autistic, you are schizophrenic. You should consult a professional about that; there is some promising work and therapies available for that disorder. I think it can even be partially or completely medicinally treated.


The misplaced hostility, the paranoid thought patterns, mixing up the order and causality of events, misplacing or interweaving multiples people’s posts as having the same hive mind thinking, lack of understanding of the mind of another.

Schizophrenia is sometimes mixed up with autism, as some of the symptoms can present in similar ways, and to a not so awesome mental health professional...well, you know, mistakes happen.

Maybe you could look into it and its related disorders and consult someone for a reevaluation; it might help you out more than a misdiagnosis of autism ever could.


LOL!

That's given me the best laugh of the day!

Why on earth would I unburden myself with one diagnosis to then saddle myself with another that is even more spurious than the first??

Unlike you, I want to live my life authentically as ME, not some textbook-designated version of me!

You might need to use Aspergers as some kind of mental crutch to explain and excuse your difficulties but I'll stand or fall by my own efforts thanks very much!


I don't have Aspergers. So don't use it as a crutch, for lack of having it.

I do have HFA, which is rather similar. I do not use it as a crutch though, but I do allow it to be a roadmap to improving myself, sort of a guide. When I identify something about myself I wish to improve, I often have additional resources to use to achieve success in my goals. Because I am certainly not the first person with HFA, I have others with similar difficulties to my own to consult. Health professionals with working knowledge to turn to. People who know where I am coming from to consort with.

I choose to use my diagnosis as another tool in my kit towards personal growth. And the only reason I recommend you get an accurate diagnosis is so that you have the right tool for the job on your own journey of personal growth. If that doesn't seem like a good idea to you, by all means, disregard my suggestion.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,440
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

29 Apr 2012, 10:35 am

nessa238 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
These sorts of threads always end up in arguments then getting locked. Some people seem to think that there is no difference between severe Autism and mild AS because severe traits can overlap mild traits and that every Autistic person is different, which is very true, but again there's an answer we will never find.


Why do you consistently misrepresent what people are saying when you comment in threads like this? No one has said that there is no difference between severe autism and mild AS. I do not recall this ever having been said since I've joined this forum, but every time the topic comes up you make this claim.


Hmm so when the Asperger's Diagnosis disappears, how are thy going to preceisely differentiate the very specific differences between severe autism and mild Aspergers when they've only got three sub-categories of severity within the Autism Spectrum Disorder category:-

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision/Pa ... px?rid=94#

Level 1 - Requiring Support

Level 2 - Requiring Substantial Support

Level 3 - Requiring Very Substantial Support

Which level of support do people consider themselves as needing?


The message in DSMV is self evident. If you have been diagnosed with AS in the past, but your symptoms are so mild that you require "no" support to function in NT society then you are deemed no longer on the ASD spectrum.

Honestly I can;t understand the logic of people who are desperate to get an official AS Dx when they turn around and claim they function quite well in NT society?

I anticipate many current AS Dx will say they require mental health services (i.e. counselling) to cope with stress. So the answer simply is they fall into Level 1. End of story.


Yes exactly

Which seems to make the whole discovery/invention of the AS diagnosis a waste of time in the first place as we're now back to square one with it ceasing to exist in the diagnostic manual!

When DSM V comes out, what if a person who thinks they might have the traits which might previously have been diagnosed as Aspergers going to be diagnosed with if their 'problems' aren't sufficient to need support? They won't be diagnosed with anything in my opinion and even if they are they will be pointed in the diection of, as you say, either mental health services and/or services being provided for people with Autism and these people will invariably also have a Learning Disability so the service won't be appropriate for a person with normal IQ ie the support needs will be of a completely different nature

I know one thing - the onus on councils/the NHS to provide any Asperger-specific support services will be zero! The DSM-V's getting rid of Aspergers as a diganosis will be an absolute gift to them in not having to provide anything but standard Autism/LD services!

A person will say "I have Aspergers, I need support" and they will reply "Er that diagnosis no longer exists; if you have Autism there's the Autism service (which will be predominantly for those with classic autism, with accompanying LD) which we only provide for people with a certain high level of need and your level of need isn't high enough so doesn't qualify for help' -I can see it coming a mile off!


People that are diagnosed with AS will simply be considered autistic by the DSM-5, and the autism spectrum will have different severity levels....so it can be anywhere from very severe, to mild and only causing mild impairments that still are diagnosable. If one does not have impairing symptoms why would they need a diagnoses in the first place?

Also if someone does have a diagnoses...I would think that would point to them having difficulties in functioning that they can't just 'overcome' hence the being diagnosed with a disorder.


_________________
We won't go back.


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,440
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

29 Apr 2012, 10:45 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
If you need support, you get DXed. If you currently don't need support, you don't get DXed.

If you have "issues" that MIGHT require you to need support in the future, you should work on those issues while postponing the DX until you actually need support.

What's wrong with working on social skills with your shrink? Is there something preventing people with no DX of autism from working on their social skills with their shrink? No. I don't see the value of slapping people with a diagnostic label who "might" need support at some undefined moment in time in the future.

Quote:
Thing is, support and dysfunction can be so many things, and not needing support from the public sector now, doesn't mean you won't need it in the future.


I didn't say "support" was limited to "government support."


Not everyone who 'needs' support has it, so what do you do with that....I mean luckily I am not totally alone in the world and have some friends and family who can help me, but if it was not for them I don't even know where I would be. But I cannot afford professional 'support' regardless of how much I do struggle with my symptoms and not just AS.....with the AS I've learned it is how my brain functions so I have to try to work with that.....not against it other then that my co-morbid disorders can be hell. If one has a consistant disorder, I would think it would actually be detrimental to just try to push through issues until there is no doubt about it that you need help....with some disorders the longer you post pone adressing it the worse it gets. That's what's happened with my depression, anxiety and PTSD.....as for the AS it was never identified when I was a child so it might not have gotten 'worse' but the differences it caused between me and most people seemed to bring on mis-treatment from other students and some teachers and I had to cope with feeling like I don't belong and the lonliness and pain it caused certainly took its toll.


_________________
We won't go back.