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RLgnome
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XFilesGeek wrote:
If you need support, you get DXed. If you currently don't need support, you don't get DXed.

If you have "issues" that MIGHT require you to need support in the future, you should work on those issues while postponing the DX until you actually need support.


I agree, but that's from the patient's perspective. From a doctor's perspective (I'm not a doctor, by the way), if an assessment is already under way (let's say the patient's general practitioner referred him or her), the patient's (possible) future needs should be taken into account. The best thing would be to convince the patient to postpone a diagnosis until the need arises, but sometimes either the patient insists (which pretty much is a sign that he or she at the very least needs emotional support), or the referring doctor, workplace psychologist or similar makes a referral that isn't strictly necessary. In those cases, the specialist should conclude according to the patient's symptoms, with future needs in mind.

Quote:
What's wrong with working on social skills with your shrink? Is there something preventing people with no DX of autism from working on their social skills with their shrink? No. I don't see the value of slapping people with a diagnostic label who "might" need support at some undefined moment in time in the future.


Nothing is wrong with that. On the contrary, more people should see a therapist. And nothing prevents them, except in some cases economy. And I didn't say anyone should be slapped with a diagnostic label. As a matter of fact, unless you are committed, which typically only happens if you're severely depressed or psychotic, you'll never be diagnosed against your will. You can always say no to an assessment. So being slapped with a label will only happen if you (or your parents, I'll admit that may count as a slapping) asked for it. But if the patient wants a full assessment (which I said might not be the "smart thing" if not needed, but for some people the "best thing" may not always be the "smart thing"), or an assessment already is underway for some other reason (unnecessary referral), it's better to get the label than have your journal say you *don't have* the condition, as some professionals misinterpret that to be a permanent conclusion. After all, AS is genetic, so if you didn't have it five years ago (as an adult), you shouldn't have it now. The correct diagnosis then would be AS without current need for practical support. That may perhaps not fit quite in with the new DSM, but it would in my opinion fit with the purpose, acknowledging the patient has a disorder that would cause him/her trouble in other situations. A doctor who views diagnostic manuals as religious scripture and his job as filling out check lists, is a doctor I wouldn't want to see. But this is highly hypothetical anyway, I very much doubt many people would seek a diagnosis if they didn't have a need for support on some level or another. Few people want labels unless the label would improve their situation.

Also, regarding economy: While working on social skills (or any other problem) with your shrink is possible with no diagnosis, it is expensive. In those countries where appointments are covered *if there is a medical reason for them*, that is most definitely a significant need for support. In such case, a diagnosis would secure future therapy - I would not be able to afford a psychologist without coverage.

Quote:
I didn't say "support" was limited to "government support."


I didn't say you said so either Wink But plenty of people think so, including a huge amount of health professionals, hence my mentioning it. Living in a country with public welfare (which has its blessings, no doubt), I meet that attitude weekly.
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Verdandi
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe90 wrote:

I haven't actually made this point for ages. My new confusion now is the ''NTs and empathy'' thing. It's just that before when I made a ''differences between severe Autism and mild AS'' thread people claimed that there is no difference between the two.


No one ever claimed that. What people said is that there are indeed similarities, and also disagreed with your characterization of the entire forum membership as having mild AS. When you talked about self-injuring behaviors (SIBs) people pointed out that some diagnosed with AS have SIBs, not just those diagnosed with autism and considered severe, just for one example.

If you don't understand what people are saying, there's nothing wrong with asking for clarification. But insisting that anyone said things they never said and would never say makes conversations frustrating, because one never knows how you're going to interpret any discussion.


Last edited by Verdandi on Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nessa238 wrote:

Hmm so when the Asperger's Diagnosis disappears, how are thy going to preceisely differentiate the very specific differences between severe autism and mild Aspergers when they've only got three sub-categories of severity within the Autism Spectrum Disorder category:-

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=94#

Level 1 - Requiring Support

Level 2 - Requiring Substantial Support

Level 3 - Requiring Very Substantial Support

Which level of support do people consider themselves as needing?


There are no very specific differences between severe autism and mild asperger's syndrome, only relative severity - someone diagnosed with AS can present with the same or similar symptoms as someone diagnosed with autism. The only differences are those of exclusion in which a diagnosis of AS requires one to speak on time and have no developmental delays in self-help and adaptive skills (although a really large number of people diagnosed with AS have delays in self-help and adaptive skills - I did), as well as not having any intellectual disability.

As far as requiring support goes, I'm between 1 and 2. I am not sure precisely where, but my therapist and others who have worked with me have said that I need some kind of support to insure I remember to do daily things like remember to eat and buy groceries and do those activities of daily living that are such a pain. I'm not even sure AS is the correct diagnosis for me, despite having started speaking at 10 months.
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nessa238
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verdandi wrote:
Joe90 wrote:

I haven't actually made this point for ages. My new confusion now is the ''NTs and empathy'' thing. It's just that before when I made a ''differences between severe Autism and mild AS'' thread people claimed that there is no difference between the two.


No one ever claimed that. What people said is that there are indeed similarities, and also disagreed with your characterization of the entire forum membership as having mild AS. When you talked about self-injuring behaviors (SIBs) people pointed out that some diagnosed with AS have SIBs, not just those diagnosed with autism and considered severe, just for one example.

If you don't understand what people are saying, there's nothing wrong with asking for clarification. But insisting that anyone said things they never said and would never say makes conversations frustrating, because one never knows how you're going to interpret any discussion.


I always find Joe90's posts interesting and they make perfectly logical sense to me, so I can only assume the problem resides with your inability to grasp the point she's making. You can always ask me for clarification the next time you get stuck. Smile

I'd say it's a perfectly intelligent observation that most people on this forum would tend to have a milder form of autism - they are seeking social interaction for a start; people with the more severe types of autism don't tend to seek or want any form of social interaction - that's their essential problem! So from the very fact of being here and actively wanting to communicate with others, a person has clearly demonstrated less severity to their autism in my opinion.

A forum is group behaviour in action and group behaviour is anathema to autistic behaviour.
Ergo by taking part in a discussion forum a person is by definition being 'less autistic', as autism is a social communication disorder and they are demonstrating that they are less 'disordered' by seeking to communicate with others (which is NT-type behaviour/normal).

The behaviour of many people on this forum is not that different from interaction on the average NT forum - believe me, I've experienced enough of it! - there's still all the jockying for position and ignoring/patronising of intelligent people who are making perfectly decent points that others fail to grasp - it's all here, just with an autistic overlay.

And as far as remembering to buy groceries is concerned - you can set up reminders on the Microsoft Outlook Calendar and write a 'To Do' list - this works for me. (I do realise there will be fundamental reasons why this obvious solution won't work for you though - it never will for people who aren't seeking an actual solution to their problems)

Ever read 'The Games People Play' by Eric Berne? You should - many people on here exhibit classic examples of the "Why Don't You Yes But," game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_People_Play_(book)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nessa238 wrote:
I always find Joe90's posts interesting and they make perfectly logical sense to me, so I can only assume the problem resides with your inability to grasp the point she's making. You can always ask me for clarification the next time you get stuck. Smile

I'd say it's a perfectly intelligent observation that most people on this forum would tend to have a milder form of autism - they are seeking social interaction for a start; people with the more severe types of autism don't tend to seek or want any form of social interaction - that's their essential problem! So from the very fact of being here and actively wanting to communicate with others, a person has clearly demonstrated less severity to their autism in my opinion.


I find a lot of what Joe90 says make sense, and I have nothing against her. I should point out that when she made that statement that everyone (not most people or a lot of people, but everyone on the forum had AS as mild as hers) it was in a thread in which a non-verbal adult autistic who would qualify as "severe" under DSM-5 criteria was participating. As in someone who needed step by step detailed instructions in order to boil water or who, if she couldn't see food because it was in a closed refrigerator or behind closed cupboards, would forget the food was there.

If you think my statement reflects hostility toward Joe90, I am not sorry to disappoint you: I'm not hostile toward her at all.

A desire to communicate with others is not properly a reflection of severity, and does not mean that one is mild. I have interacted with numerous autistic people here and elsewhere, and severity tends to be all over the place. Participating on this forum may not even strictly reflect a desire to communicate, although communication is a factor.

For example, Carly Fleischman.

Her inability to communicate did not reflect a lack of desire to communicate.

Quote:
A forum is group behaviour in action and group behaviour is anathema to autistic behaviour.
Ergo by taking part in a discussion forum a person is by definition being 'less autistic', as autism is a social communication disorder and they are demonstrating that they are less 'disordered' by seeking to communicate with others (which is NT-type behaviour/normal).


Autism is not strictly a social communication disorder. It impacts many areas of functioning - social perception, communication, reciprocity, sensory processing, executive functions, concrete vs. abstract thinking, and so on. Thinking of it as a social communication disorder misses its full impact.

I would also argue that the use of online social media does not actually reflect "less autistic." For a lot of autistic people, social media represents a lower stress environment for social interaction and information exchange, especially as compared to face-to-face interactions.

For example:

Autistics speaking day.

Also, this blog related to the above event: http://autisticsspeakingday.blogspot.com/

Quote:
The behaviour of many people on this forum is not that different from interaction on the average NT forum - believe me, I've experienced enough of it! - there's still all the jockying for position and ignoring/patronising of intelligent people who are making perfectly decent points that others fail to grasp - it's all here, just with an autistic overlay.


Joe90 wasn't making a decent point, she was misrepresenting what others have said in the past. Or she misunderstood what others have said in the past and continues to express the same misunderstanding.

Anyway, I would agree with you on one point. I suspect that the only thing you've been doing in this thread is ignoring/patronizing people and jockeying for position.

Quote:
And as far as remembering to buy groceries is concerned - you can set up reminders on the Microsoft Outlook Calendar and write a 'To Do' list - this works for me. (I do realise there will be fundamental reasons why this obvious solution won't work for you though - it never will for people who aren't seeking an actual solution to their problems)


I do use calendars to give me daily reminders for all sorts of things. I have implemented solutions to several of my daily difficulties, but all I can say is that if you do not understand executive dysfunction, you are certainly not going to understand how much I (or anyone else here) has struggled with it and how much effort I've put into trying to work around, over, under, and through those difficulties. I don't need self-help books that will simply tell me that I must be making excuses, I need actually practical solutions - and if that means assistance to ensure I get things done, then I am willing to do that. You may not agree, but that is an actual solution to my problems. I don't need someone to do everything or even most things for me, but I do sometimes need someone I can't just ignore to prompt me when things need to be done because even with calendars, alarms, and reminders, I still get stuck doing something nonconstructive.

Since you think this is a matter of choice and not a matter of neurology, I suggest researching executive dysfunction. Also, it couldn't hurt to read about autistic inertia.. Fortunately, the people who need to take my needs and difficulties seriously actually do so, and understand that the problem is not simply stubbornness or laziness.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verdandi wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
I always find Joe90's posts interesting and they make perfectly logical sense to me, so I can only assume the problem resides with your inability to grasp the point she's making. You can always ask me for clarification the next time you get stuck. Smile

I'd say it's a perfectly intelligent observation that most people on this forum would tend to have a milder form of autism - they are seeking social interaction for a start; people with the more severe types of autism don't tend to seek or want any form of social interaction - that's their essential problem! So from the very fact of being here and actively wanting to communicate with others, a person has clearly demonstrated less severity to their autism in my opinion.


I find a lot of what Joe90 says make sense, and I have nothing against her. I should point out that when she made that statement that everyone (not most people or a lot of people, but everyone on the forum had AS as mild as hers) it was in a thread in which a non-verbal adult autistic who would qualify as "severe" under DSM-5 criteria was participating. As in someone who needed step by step detailed instructions in order to boil water or who, if she couldn't see food because it was in a closed refrigerator or behind closed cupboards, would forget the food was there.

If you think my statement reflects hostility toward Joe90, I am not sorry to disappoint you: I'm not hostile toward her at all.

A desire to communicate with others is not properly a reflection of severity, and does not mean that one is mild. I have interacted with numerous autistic people here and elsewhere, and severity tends to be all over the place. Participating on this forum may not even strictly reflect a desire to communicate, although communication is a factor.

For example, Carly Fleischman.

Her inability to communicate did not reflect a lack of desire to communicate.

Quote:
A forum is group behaviour in action and group behaviour is anathema to autistic behaviour.
Ergo by taking part in a discussion forum a person is by definition being 'less autistic', as autism is a social communication disorder and they are demonstrating that they are less 'disordered' by seeking to communicate with others (which is NT-type behaviour/normal).


Autism is not strictly a social communication disorder. It impacts many areas of functioning - social perception, communication, reciprocity, sensory processing, executive functions, concrete vs. abstract thinking, and so on. Thinking of it as a social communication disorder misses its full impact.

I would also argue that the use of online social media does not actually reflect "less autistic." For a lot of autistic people, social media represents a lower stress environment for social interaction and information exchange, especially as compared to face-to-face interactions.

For example:

Autistics speaking day.

Also, this blog related to the above event: http://autisticsspeakingday.blogspot.com/

Quote:
The behaviour of many people on this forum is not that different from interaction on the average NT forum - believe me, I've experienced enough of it! - there's still all the jockying for position and ignoring/patronising of intelligent people who are making perfectly decent points that others fail to grasp - it's all here, just with an autistic overlay.


Joe90 wasn't making a decent point, she was misrepresenting what others have said in the past. Or she misunderstood what others have said in the past and continues to express the same misunderstanding.

Anyway, I would agree with you on one point. I suspect that the only thing you've been doing in this thread is ignoring/patronizing people and jockeying for position.

Quote:
And as far as remembering to buy groceries is concerned - you can set up reminders on the Microsoft Outlook Calendar and write a 'To Do' list - this works for me. (I do realise there will be fundamental reasons why this obvious solution won't work for you though - it never will for people who aren't seeking an actual solution to their problems)


I do use calendars to give me daily reminders for all sorts of things. I have implemented solutions to several of my daily difficulties, but all I can say is that if you do not understand executive dysfunction, you are certainly not going to understand how much I (or anyone else here) has struggled with it and how much effort I've put into trying to work around, over, under, and through those difficulties. I don't need self-help books that will simply tell me that I must be making excuses, I need actually practical solutions - and if that means assistance to ensure I get things done, then I am willing to do that. You may not agree, but that is an actual solution to my problems. I don't need someone to do everything or even most things for me, but I do sometimes need someone I can't just ignore to prompt me when things need to be done because even with calendars, alarms, and reminders, I still get stuck doing something nonconstructive.

Since you think this is a matter of choice and not a matter of neurology, I suggest researching executive dysfunction. Also, it couldn't hurt to read about autistic inertia.. Fortunately, the people who need to take my needs and difficulties seriously actually do so, and understand that the problem is not simply stubbornness or laziness.


No, you patronised Joe90 to within an inch of her life, I called you out on it and as a result you have back-tracked and posted in a more respectful manner towards her

So job done I'd say! Smile

Autism is predominantly a social communication disorder - you saying it isn't won't change that fact

"Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

There's no intelligent discussion to be had with a person who'd argue black is white - it becomes meaningless and pointless!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nessa238 wrote:

No, you patronised Joe90 to within an inch of her life, I called you out on it and as a result you have back-tracked and posted in a more respectful manner towards her

So job done I'd say! Smile


I did not consider that what I said might be taken that way, which is why I said that. But I did not backtrack. I see you continue to read things between the lines that are simply not there. That is to say, intentions.

I am not unreasonable. If you tell me that I am being rude to someone and I do not intend to be rude, I will do my best to stop. This is not backtracking. I am not sure whether I should trust your perspective on how I come across to Joe90, but it couldn't hurt to at least clarify my actual intentions, rather than whatever you're trying to read into my actions.

You have spent much of this thread making condescending remarks toward any number of people who do not adopt your preferred and suggested perspective toward having autism, and you accuse those who describe impairments more severe than yours of faking or playing games.

Quote:
Autism is predominantly a social communication disorder - you saying it isn't won't change that fact

"Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism


Yes, the people who define autism place a greater value on the social aspects of autism and tend to gloss over the many other traits relevant to autism. It is a disorder with social and communication-related elements, but it has many other features as well. Consider that sensory sensitivities have been identified as a part of autism going back to Kanner's research, but it's only in the DSM-5 that this particular trait was included in the diagnostic criteria. Executive dysfunction relevant to autism still hasn't been included (except peripherally, by identifying particular traits related to it - such as focused interests).

Some researchers are even approaching the question of what autism is beyond simply a "social communication disorder."

Anyway, in the DSM-5, autism will be autism spectrum disorder. Social communication disorder will be its own disorder separate from autism.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verdandi wrote:
nessa238 wrote:

No, you patronised Joe90 to within an inch of her life, I called you out on it and as a result you have back-tracked and posted in a more respectful manner towards her

So job done I'd say! Smile


I did not consider that what I said might be taken that way, which is why I said that. But I did not backtrack. I see you continue to read things between the lines that are simply not there. That is to say, intentions.

I am not unreasonable. If you tell me that I am being rude to someone and I do not intend to be rude, I will do my best to stop. This is not backtracking. I am not sure whether I should trust your perspective on how I come across to Joe90, but it couldn't hurt to at least clarify my actual intentions, rather than whatever you're trying to read into my actions.

You have spent much of this thread making condescending remarks toward any number of people who do not adopt your preferred and suggested perspective toward having autism, and you accuse those who describe impairments more severe than yours of faking or playing games.

Quote:
Autism is predominantly a social communication disorder - you saying it isn't won't change that fact

"Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism


Yes, the people who define autism place a greater value on the social aspects of autism and tend to gloss over the many other traits relevant to autism. It is a disorder with social and communication-related elements, but it has many other features as well. Consider that sensory sensitivities have been identified as a part of autism going back to Kanner's research, but it's only in the DSM-5 that this particular trait was included in the diagnostic criteria. Executive dysfunction relevant to autism still hasn't been included (except peripherally, by identifying particular traits related to it - such as focused interests).

Some researchers are even approaching the question of what autism is beyond simply a "social communication disorder."

Anyway, in the DSM-5, autism will be autism spectrum disorder. Social communication disorder will be its own disorder separate from autism.


As I said, it's pointless interacting further as you've blithely decided to re-write the entire canon of autism knowledge and research to make social communication difficulties not the main thing in autism! You've even suggested they are something that needs to be assessed outside of the autism diagnosis completely! What point the autism diagnsois at all if people like you just jettison major parts of it that you feel aren't so important??

You are proof positive of the completely arbitary interpretations of the whole condition!

I'm sure you'll have a new interpretation of it all tomorrow as you seem adept at twisting the facts to suit your argument.

I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!

With a mind like yours, you'd make a perfect politician!

Unlike most others I don't buy the bullshit but nice try! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nessa238 wrote:

Autism is predominantly a social communication disorder - you saying it isn't won't change that fact

"Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

There's no intelligent discussion to be had with a person who'd argue black is white - it becomes meaningless and pointless!


Sorry to point this out. But...

Quote:
"Autism is a disorder of neural development


It is not, by the definition you provided, a disorder of social communication, predominantly or otherwise.

It is a disorder of "neural development" which is characterized by "impaired" social interaction and communication, as well as characterized by restricted and repetitive behavior. So, disorder of neural development. Of which has two equally important characteristics. There is no predominating anything, other than neural development disorder.

But I agree, there is no intelligent conversation to be had. And not because you are claiming black is white...but because you are angry and hostile to people on this site in general. Calm your aggression, open your mind to the point of view and opinions of other people, and then we can have a conversation that has a point and is meaningful.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nessa238 wrote:
As I said, it's pointless interacting further as you've blithely decided to re-write the entire canon of autism knowledge and research to make social communication difficulties not the main thing in autism! You've even suggested they are something that needs to be assessed outside of the autism diagnosis completely! What point the autism diagnsois at all if people like you just jettison major parts of it that you feel aren't so important??

You are proof positive of the completely arbitary interpretations of the whole condition!

I'm sure you'll have a new interpretation of it all tomorrow as you seem adept at twisting the facts to suit your argument.

I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!

With a mind like yours, you'd make a perfect politician!

Unlike most others I don't buy the bullshit but nice try! Very Happy


I'm not a moderator, but I will contact them if this type of attack continues.

I urge you to please be more considerate and less insulting. I understand that sometimes things can get heated and maybe you feel under pressure because you feel somehow your ego or self image is being altered by whatever has gone on thus far in this thread.

But I have just read through it, and I can assure you, as a more or less objective reader, you are being hostile Nessa. And it would be incredible if you could please stop. Any point you are trying to make is going to get lost by the overshadowing of personal attacks you are making, or by the disregard you are showing for the perspective and thoughts of other members.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NarcissusSavage wrote:
nessa238 wrote:

Autism is predominantly a social communication disorder - you saying it isn't won't change that fact

"Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

There's no intelligent discussion to be had with a person who'd argue black is white - it becomes meaningless and pointless!


Sorry to point this out. But...

Quote:
"Autism is a disorder of neural development


It is not, by the definition you provided, a disorder of social communication, predominantly or otherwise.

It is a disorder of "neural development" which is characterized by "impaired" social interaction and communication, as well as characterized by restricted and repetitive behavior. So, disorder of neural development. Of which has two equally important characteristics. There is no predominating anything, other than neural development disorder.

But I agree, there is no intelligent conversation to be had. And not because you are claiming black is white...but because you are angry and hostile to people on this site in general. Calm your aggression, open your mind to the point of view and opinions of other people, and then we can have a conversation that has a point and is meaningful.


Yes I was waiting for someone to back up her point! Lol

I've posted a lot of interesting intellectual ideas on this thread yet only one person has shown any interest in them

That tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about the mindset of people on here

You (and others with closed minds) have no real interest in the intellect or intellectual ideas full stop - just wearing others down until they agree with your tediously conformist (and often just plain irrational!) point of view

Well it aint happening with me! - you'll be happy to know that most people in society and on this site are conformist drones but I have my own ideas about things and respect only INTELLIGENT people who respect other peoples' intellectual ideas

So by all means continue trying to re-inforce the status quo of anti-intellectualism that exists on this forum/the world in general and I'll read something more interesting!

You bet I'm angry at having to live in such a stupid society with such stupid, unenquiring minds!

I'm trying to help people to think more widely than the self-important opinions of idiots on forums but it's a lost cause!

People will need to read this thread right from the start to see what/who I'm talking about.

I don't have to think in ANY particular way to suit you or anyone on this forum - I don't toe the
party line like the conformist herd on here - I'm an individual and if you have even the slightest grasp of history you will know that the individual thinker is positively loathed by the majority for being just that - an individual!

Most people are intellectually asleep and you are no different from the rest


Last edited by nessa238 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NarcissusSavage wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
As I said, it's pointless interacting further as you've blithely decided to re-write the entire canon of autism knowledge and research to make social communication difficulties not the main thing in autism! You've even suggested they are something that needs to be assessed outside of the autism diagnosis completely! What point the autism diagnsois at all if people like you just jettison major parts of it that you feel aren't so important??

You are proof positive of the completely arbitary interpretations of the whole condition!

I'm sure you'll have a new interpretation of it all tomorrow as you seem adept at twisting the facts to suit your argument.

I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!

With a mind like yours, you'd make a perfect politician!

Unlike most others I don't buy the bullshit but nice try! Very Happy


I'm not a moderator, but I will contact them if this type of attack continues.

I urge you to please be more considerate and less insulting. I understand that sometimes things can get heated and maybe you feel under pressure because you feel somehow your ego or self image is being altered by whatever has gone on thus far in this thread.

But I have just read through it, and I can assure you, as a more or less objective reader, you are being hostile Nessa. And it would be incredible if you could please stop. Any point you are trying to make is going to get lost by the overshadowing of personal attacks you are making, or by the disregard you are showing for the perspective and thoughts of other members.


I've seen little to no regard or perspective taking on my views so your demand for respect seems to only work one way

I'd be positively ecstatic to be banned from this site

I'm trying to give people some useful information before I carry on with my life unburdened by the Asperger label

Being banned will be utterly symbolic of all I've said in this thread!

So go for it! - it will be like an autistic crucifixion of the resident heretic - I'm loving the idea!

Intolerance towards others but not towards you eh? Wink
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RLgnome
Raven
Raven


Joined: Jul 26, 2011
Age: 32
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nessa238 wrote:
I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!


And you accuse others of patronizing you, and not taking you seriously?

Get down from your pedestal. You don't come across as any more intelligent than the rest here. You also don't come across as very knowledgeable, despite your own thinking so. You use the classic technique of shutting down every opponent by saying you're just trying to have an intelligent debate, which implies that everyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent and/or unreasonable. From your argument, they're also lazy liars (or at least they seduced themselves into thinking they have problems you deny exist). You seem to have read the diagnostic manuals, and some psychiatry-hostile literature, while not really knowing much about autism other than the social factors. Despite overwhelming evidence and clinical experience, you've decided to view other factors as "not trying hard enough" or "making up problems". And then you accuse people for going against evidence, when they point out that social dysfunction is not the *predominant* factor, because you don't understand the word "predominant". It is *characterized* by (among other things) social dysfunction, but the other factors are equal (or sometimes bigger) in extent, though not as visible. Diagnostic manuals are exactly what the term implies - manuals to help a professional make a *diagnosis*. Social dysfunction is often so visible it plays the biggest (but never the only) part in *diagnosis*. That doesn't mean social dysfunction always makes up the biggest part of that person's *challenges*. Other literature confirms that.

And to bring up one specific example, you make comparisons that proves your lack of knowledge of human neurology (note: I'm just a simple technology student, but at least I'm not trying to revolutionize autism research by claiming the knowledge acquired the last few decades is wrong). You asked someone who's not always able to leave his/her house to buy food, whether they'd flee if the house was on fire. The basic fact that those are two situations interpreted totally differently by the brain, was beyond you. A fire causes an adrenaline reaction, which activates other instinct than mere hunger. By the time anything similar happens from hunger, you're almost too weak to move. Those behaviors are even managed by different areas in the brain. You also wasn't aware that some people (not necessarily autistic people, either) freeze in those situations. Do you think freezing is because they're not trying hard enough, too?

But unless I lost something, you didn't bother to answer that rebuttal. Instead, you chose other ways to blame your opponents of being less intelligent and/or hostile. That's yet another dirty debate technique; ignore arguments you know are better than yours, keep claiming you're right, and find other quotes to prove your points. Or just stop arguing all together, and just repeat your own points, claiming you're the intelligent part of the discussion.

Try to read something as basic as Tony Attwood's The Complete Guide to Asperger Syndrome. Then come back and tell us his decades-long experience with autism (and therefore also executive dysfunction) is wrong, because you solved your own problems by trying harder.

Oh, and sorry if I'm coming along a bit harsh. I'm getting tired of reading your recycled arguments, even after people have proved them wrong. You've said you think it's in our heads (which, ironically it is, but in quite another sense), and if you think that, nothing we say will convince you. Your position is noted, there's no point in repeating it over and over again. Note that I'm not trying to shut you down - if you come up with anything actually new, by all means post it.
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nessa238
Phoenix
Phoenix


Joined: Jul 02, 2011
Age: 48
Posts: 3908
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RLgnome wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!


And you accuse others of patronizing you, and not taking you seriously?

Get down from your pedestal. You don't come across as any more intelligent than the rest here. You also don't come across as very knowledgeable, despite your own thinking so. You use the classic technique of shutting down every opponent by saying you're just trying to have an intelligent debate, which implies that everyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent and/or unreasonable. From your argument, they're also lazy liars (or at least they seduced themselves into thinking they have problems you deny exist). You seem to have read the diagnostic manuals, and some psychiatry-hostile literature, while not really knowing much about autism other than the social factors. Despite overwhelming evidence and clinical experience, you've decided to view other factors as "not trying hard enough" or "making up problems". And then you accuse people for going against evidence, when they point out that social dysfunction is not the *predominant* factor, because you don't understand the word "predominant". It is *characterized* by (among other things) social dysfunction, but the other factors are equal (or sometimes bigger) in extent, though not as visible. Diagnostic manuals are exactly what the term implies - manuals to help a professional make a *diagnosis*. Social dysfunction is often so visible it plays the biggest (but never the only) part in *diagnosis*. That doesn't mean social dysfunction always makes up the biggest part of that person's *challenges*. Other literature confirms that.

And to bring up one specific example, you make comparisons that proves your lack of knowledge of human neurology (note: I'm just a simple technology student, but at least I'm not trying to revolutionize autism research by claiming the knowledge acquired the last few decades is wrong). You asked someone who's not always able to leave his/her house to buy food, whether they'd flee if the house was on fire. The basic fact that those are two situations interpreted totally differently by the brain, was beyond you. A fire causes an adrenaline reaction, which activates other instinct than mere hunger. By the time anything similar happens from hunger, you're almost too weak to move. Those behaviors are even managed by different areas in the brain. You also wasn't aware that some people (not necessarily autistic people, either) freeze in those situations. Do you think freezing is because they're not trying hard enough, too?

But unless I lost something, you didn't bother to answer that rebuttal. Instead, you chose other ways to blame your opponents of being less intelligent and/or hostile. That's yet another dirty debate technique; ignore arguments you know are better than yours, keep claiming you're right, and find other quotes to prove your points. Or just stop arguing all together, and just repeat your own points, claiming you're the intelligent part of the discussion.

Try to read something as basic as Tony Attwood's The Complete Guide to Asperger Syndrome. Then come back and tell us his decades-long experience with autism (and therefore also executive dysfunction) is wrong, because you solved your own problems by trying harder.

Oh, and sorry if I'm coming along a bit harsh. I'm getting tired of reading your recycled arguments, even after people have proved them wrong. You've said you think it's in our heads (which, ironically it is, but in quite another sense), and if you think that, nothing we say will convince you. Your position is noted, there's no point in repeating it over and over again. Note that I'm not trying to shut you down - if you come up with anything actually new, by all means post it.


Try reading my replies as well

I read Tony Attwood's book years ago - Newsflash - he's made an excellent career out of patronising you all! Try getting a job in the same department of whatever organisation he works in, as an autistic person - good luck with that!

I wonder in fact how many autistic people (in paid employment) he works alongside full stop? I can guarantee not many!

These 'autism gurus' have several common attributes:-

1. They never have autism themselves
2. They make an exceedingly nice profit from books and on the lecture circuit
3. An autistic person will never achieve the same status or level of success as them
due to the very fact that the whole autism industry, while based on autistic people, is inherently biased against them ie they want to talk about you to other NTs but not actually to you

Discuss!
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Phoenix


Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 12517
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nessa238 wrote:
As I said, it's pointless interacting further as you've blithely decided to re-write the entire canon of autism knowledge and research to make social communication difficulties not the main thing in autism! You've even suggested they are something that needs to be assessed outside of the autism diagnosis completely! What point the autism diagnsois at all if people like you just jettison major parts of it that you feel aren't so important??


I have my own opinion formed by my own experiences and interactions with other autistic people. I am not rewriting the entire canon of autism knowledge, I am referring to knowledge that already exists and pointing out how it's neglected in terms of how autism is perceived and diagnosed.

Quote:
You are proof positive of the completely arbitary interpretations of the whole condition!


Rolling Eyes

Quote:
I'm sure you'll have a new interpretation of it all tomorrow as you seem adept at twisting the facts to suit your argument.


My arguments are consistent. I have said several times that I believe autism is predominantly a processing disorder that impacts every part of the brain - hence sensory processing issues, social skills issues, adaptive skills issues, executive functions, emotional processing, and the tendency toward particular kinds of co-morbid conditions (such as depression, anxiety, and ADHD, for three examples). I have said this other times on this forum, and this is all I am saying now. I have an informed opinion about autism and the state of autism research, why shouldn't I express my opinion? That opinion is that while the social and communication deficits are valid and are impairing, they are not the primary deficits in autism.

Quote:
I'm not surprised that you've convinced yourself you're unable to remember to do the shopping without the input of another person - you could probably convince yourself you're actually an alien from another planet if you tried hard enough - go on, give it a go - it'll be amusing if nothing else!


Why would I convince myself of something that has been true for decades? How can you possibly know what it's like to be me? What makes you think you have the slightest understanding of what I deal with on a daily basis? I don't have to convince myself that it's possible for me to do this, I am simply reporting a fact about my life.

In any event, I did not claim that I was completely incapable of going grocery shopping without someone to remind me to do so. I can do it, and have done it in the past. The question is a matter of getting them in a timely and routine manner as opposed to a haphazard manner that is sometimes timely and sometimes can lead to me going without food for 3-4 days before hunger drives me to buy something. It is simply an example of support that would be helpful. And the truth is I do have this kind of support already, although it is informal in that it is other people I live with who do this, rather than an aide.

I am not, however, psychotic. I cannot convince myself that I am an alien from another planet because I simply am not an alien from another planet. There is no comparison between these two items.

Quote:
With a mind like yours, you'd make a perfect politician!

Unlike most others I don't buy the bullshit but nice try! Very Happy


You say you're not a conformist, but truthfully I have encountered many more people with your attitudes about disability than I ever have who shared my attitudes about disability. Insistent denial that impairments could be real, insistence that seeing one's self as disabled is "playing the victim," insistence that if you refuse to acknowledge any impairments then they don't exist. Your rather negative attitudes toward disability and disabled people are fairly commonplace and not hard to encounter at all. You're not a rebel or a nonconformist as far as I can tell.

It's actually inconsistent that you would claim that while berating me for daring to hold a perspective on what autism is that differs from your wikipedia quote. So is it only good to "go against the crowd" when it's you doing it, but if I do it, then I am not worth talking to because my definition of autism does not agree with yours? This is bizarrely inconsistent and illogical on its own, but is consistent with many of the things you have accused me of in this and other posts in this thread.

I have no doubt you will try to twist my words again, as that seems to be one of the very few rhetorical options you resort to when faced with disagreement., I at least want it on record that it is in fact you who is twisting words in this thread.
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