Post 4592636 - (What constitutes tolerance? Bigotry?)

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What constitutes tolerance? Bigotry?

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hyperlexian
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:13 am Post subject:

Ancalagon wrote:

That would be her abusive boyfriend, actually.

you would also be trying to take away her choice. again, it's 2 sides of the same coin.

Quote:

I'm not sure how you can think that makes sense. This sort of thing is why I don't like to get into the abortion debate on the internet anymore: people imply that if you disagree with them that you must have evil plans for their body, or hate women, or something along those lines.

it is an evil plan for my body if you oppose abortion, yes.

Quote:

Making one point and leaving it at that.

don't quote me if you don't want a response. or even better, don't post your opinion and nobody can respond.

Quote:

4. If you support border security, you hate Mexicans.

The OP was complaining about people assuming false things about pro-border security people and then calling them names because of it. I was supporting the OP's point by asserting exactly what you just said: that "border security is different from not allowing Mexican immigrants".

you're right - i misremembered it. he also expanded it to include al-Qaeda. i think that increased border security hasn't really helped, considering the cost, but it's neither here nor there.

Quote:

You asserted that certain ideas were clearly bigoted when they were clearly not. I was wondering if you were using a special definition of bigotry.

what did i say was bigoted that is not?

border security is not necessarily bigoted (i thought we were talking about immigration), but opposing abortion and gay marriage can be. this is not my personal definition. do you maybe have some sort of obscure definition that does not encompass those things?
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Ancalagon
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:12 am Post subject:

hyperlexian wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

That would be her abusive boyfriend, actually.

you would also be trying to take away her choice. again, it's 2 sides of the same coin.

Quote:

it is an evil plan for my body if you oppose abortion, yes.

This is exactly the sort of nastiness that I was trying to avoid.

It's also the worst I've ever been insulted on WP. I've never before been called evil or compared to an abusive boyfriend who threatened to beat his girlfriend until she had a miscarriage. And over opinions I went out of my way not to express directly so as to be less argumentative!

Quote:

Making one point and leaving it at that.

don't quote me if you don't want a response. or even better, don't post your opinion and nobody can respond.

I *didn't* post my opinion. I was trying to make a point that you were incorrect in your assumptions about what pro-lifers want.
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hyperlexian
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:21 am Post subject:

Ancalagon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

That would be her abusive boyfriend, actually.

you would also be trying to take away her choice. again, it's 2 sides of the same coin.

Quote:

it is an evil plan for my body if you oppose abortion, yes.

opposing abortion risks women's lives. you made a JOKE that it is an evil plan, as though risking women's lives is something to make a joke about. i was horrified, so i agreed with your "joke". feel free to explain how it does not risk women's lives to oppose abortions.

Quote:

Making one point and leaving it at that.

don't quote me if you don't want a response. or even better, don't post your opinion and nobody can respond.

I *didn't* post my opinion. I was trying to make a point that you were incorrect in your assumptions about what pro-lifers want.

you created an argument, and you didn't really make any point of the sort you are stating here. you said that people who oppose abortions do not want to make decisions for my body... but... they do. you also said it is not my body getting killed in the case of abortion, but you were not correct in drawing that conclusion either, as i can most definitely die if abortion is not allowed.

so if you do not want an argument, maybe... don't start one.
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LiendaBalla
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:34 am Post subject:

zena4 wrote:

LiendaBalla wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

Here is what it seems the case is:

1. You can only be tolerant if you're liberal, and not a Christian.

... Says the woman who is 33 this year. (Awww, the old "said the TROLL" battle line. Rolling Eyes

)

And saying that myself, I don't know which emoticon(s) would fit the best now.

Some people don't believe in your God. Sorry, but that doesn't automatically make you a victim. Do you live in America? The news media like to lie and talk smack at non-Christians all the time. For example, the "war on Christmas"? That's just bigot propaganda, and some of the media love using it. I know what feelings would fit me right now. Very Happy

Last edited by LiendaBalla on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:54 am; edited 2 times in total

Grebels
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:44 am Post subject:

Quote:

Here is what it seems the case is:

1. You can only be tolerant if you're liberal, and not a Christian.

I was a tolerant, easy going kind of guy until I came here. Now I'm a bigot.

sage_gerard
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:48 am Post subject:

hyperlexian wrote:

nonexistent bigotry that a person is mistakenly acting on is not the same thing as opposing actual bigotry until the point that one becomes a bigot.

No, but an individuals motivation can be inherited from a special interest group that once acted defensively to overcome actual bigotry. They may end up still fighting when it is not necessary. At that time, bigotry is only perceived at an individual level, but it was fought before. This does not support my point for individuals, but it is one way for a special interest group to be corrupted by becoming the bigot.

To bring it closer to the individual level, this article (click) ties into what we are talking about here. This is an example where a single defender of the mosque a few blocks away from Ground Zero shamed opponents for being opponents. This runs on the assumption that if a few opponents of the mosque ARE bigots, they must ALL be bigots. That is "If you oppose the mosque, you are a bigot" as opposed to "If you oppose the mosque solely because you hate Muslims, you are a bigot".

Those kind of bigots did exist in the anti-mosque side of the debate, but opponents become bigots themselves by they generalize their attitude to the non-bigoted. I am starting to think this can apply to other debates ITT.
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sage_gerard
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:02 am Post subject:

hyperlexian, Before I contribute to the whole abortion discussion, what is your opinion about men saying something about it? I ask because I've met women who insist that I should never have an opinion on it, regardless of what it might be. _________________ "Sex, streams, friends accessing private members... Either I am just discovering unintentional innuendo or Stroustrup is a pervert."

Chipshorter
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:44 am Post subject:

hyperlexian, Ancalagon asked you for your definition of bigotry. You clearly avoided answering the question. So am going to ask you the same question question but this time reword it What does the word bigotry mean to you? While am at it I have a few question question that I insist that you answer: Do you consider people of Welsh ethnicity and nationality to be inferior to other ethnicities and nationalities? Do you acknowledge that people of Welsh ethnicity and nationality have there own unique culture? Do you acknowledge that people of Welsh ethnicity and nationality have a national day called Saint David's Day which falls on the 1st of March? Do Welsh people have the right to celebrate Saint David's Day free from prejudice and discrimination? Are Welsh people immoral? Do you have tolerance and respect for Welsh people and Welsh culture? Have you ever shown intolerance and disrespect to Welsh people and there culture? _________________ Censorship reflects a society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. --Potter Stewart Corruption is authority plus monopoly minus transparency. --Unknown

Ancalagon
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject:

hyperlexian wrote:

opposing abortion risks women's lives.

What? How?

You've given two examples of this that don't work. In your 'suicidal woman with hormonal changes' example, you are failing to take into account that danger to the mother's life is considered an acceptable reason for abortion by pro-lifers. In your 'psychotic boyfriend will beat his girlfriend', you're not making sense. Psychotic boyfriends beating their girlfriends does not resemble the pro-life stance, nor does it result from it.

Quote:

you made a JOKE that it is an evil plan, as though risking women's lives is something to make a joke about. i was horrified, so i agreed with your "joke".

That wasn't a joke. Jokes have punchlines.

I am not sure how you could possibly read into it that I was somehow trivializing people's lives.

Quote:

I *didn't* post my opinion. I was trying to make a point that you were incorrect in your assumptions about what pro-lifers want.

you created an argument, and you didn't really make any point of the sort you are stating here.

Here is what I actually said:

Ancalagon wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

well... i'd say that someone who opposes abortion wants to have control over the decisions i make with my body.

Then you'd be wrong. I don't want to get into too much detail, since I've sworn off debating this on the internet, but people who are opposed to abortion are opposed on the grounds that it's killing someone. They don't find killing someone in the name of controlling your own body acceptable. (And, yes, I know that those who support abortions would say there isn't anybody there yet.)

Notice that you said 'wants to have control', and that I explained the actual motivation. Notice that I was not saying 'I think' but 'people who are opposed to abortion think', so that it would be clear I wasn't trying to assert a pro-life position but rather describe it. Notice that I deliberately included the opposing argument as well, so as to avoid starting a debate on abortion in general.

Quote:

you said that people who oppose abortions do not want to make decisions for my body... but... they do.

You're trying to put words in other people's mouths here.

Perhaps that's what I should have said in the first place, but I didn't think of it at the time.
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Ancalagon
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject:

hyperlexian wrote:

Quote:

You asserted that certain ideas were clearly bigoted when they were clearly not. I was wondering if you were using a special definition of bigotry.

what did i say was bigoted that is not?

border security is not necessarily bigoted (i thought we were talking about immigration), but opposing abortion and gay marriage can be.

You appear to have answered your own question in the bolded bit.

Quote:

this is not my personal definition. do you maybe have some sort of obscure definition that does not encompass those things?

This definition from the wikipedia page seems reasonable to me:

Quote:

Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot," a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group.

Notice that the definition does not apply to opposition of abortion or gay marriage. Notice also that wikipedia is not exactly 'obscure'.
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hyperlexian
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject:

sage_gerard wrote:

hyperlexian, Before I contribute to the whole abortion discussion, what is your opinion about men saying something about it?

I ask because I've met women who insist that I should never have an opinion on it, regardless of what it might be.

i am incensed by pro-life standpoints, regardless of whether it comes from a man or a woman.
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sage_gerard
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject:

hyperlexian wrote:

sage_gerard wrote:

i am incensed by pro-life standpoints, regardless of whether it comes from a man or a woman.

That does not answer my question. There are more shades to the pro-life and pro-choice positions than popular culture thinks.

I'm pro-choice, but think pro-choice people are approaching this as a woman's issue when women are not the only stakeholders.

What I am asking you is: In the event that you do not like what I have to say about it, are you still willing to listen?
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hyperlexian
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject:

sage_gerard wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

sage_gerard wrote:

i am incensed by pro-life standpoints, regardless of whether it comes from a man or a woman.

maybe, maybe not. i can't abide by people wanting to decide what happens to my body. it is personal on a life-or-death level. there is likely no point in debating the subject with me as i will not change my mind about that aspect.
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SpiritBlooms
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject:

sage_gerard wrote:

I think it's fine for men to have an opinion, just not to have any say in what an individual woman does about it. But then I'm a woman, and I don't think I should have a say in what another woman does when she finds herself pregnant.

hyperlexian
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject:

for me the point of an internet debate is not to convince the other people of anything, it's to discuss the topic so that third parties can make their own decisions. i do not expect that an opponent will ever have their mind changed. _________________ on a break, so if you need assistance please contact another moderator from this list: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5043493.html#5043493

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