Ancalagon
Computer Geek
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | i am incensed by pro-life standpoints, regardless of whether it comes from a man or a woman. |
That explains a lot.
If you are so emotionally devoted to your opinion on this, it's unlikely that you will be able to see your opponent's arguments and opinions as they really are.
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | for me the point of an internet debate is not to convince the other people of anything, it's to discuss the topic so that third parties can make their own decisions. i do not expect that an opponent will ever have their mind changed. |
Maybe not, but they can pick up on a few new things. I don't expect to change your mind on anything. I just want to make sure I'm not going to be wasting time typing a bunch of stuff when my points would not even be considered in the spirit of curiosity. There is a difference between disagreeing while genuinely listening and disagreeing by dismissing a point.
| hyperlexian wrote: | | maybe, maybe not. i can't abide by people wanting to decide what happens to my body. it is personal on a life-or-death level. there is likely no point in debating the subject with me as i will not change my mind about that aspect. |
Thanks for the heads up.
Now, I know there are sixty-f**ktillion ways of looking at this, but this is just one example. I could go on and on.
My position is that if a man and a woman make a commitment, they surrender certain freedoms as per the nature of contracts. Assume John wants to have a child with Mary and raise a family. Mary formally agrees under the condition that John moves in with her. After all is said and done, Mary suddenly get an abortion while John is eagerly awaiting the child, because "her body, her choice".
Duty, responsibility and integrity are the virtues that often justify a loss of liberty. Abortion does not bother me if the mother-to-be never sacrificed her right to get it, or if the contract she agreed to dissolved. (i.e. rape victim, breakup, etc.) It does bother me when it comes with this whole "I get to do whatever I want because eat me" mentality. I would not make a decision for someone else, but contracts represent relationships and they mean nothing if they are not enforced.
Abortion makes it possible for women to stop something they do not want to do. Fine, but when men have something at stake in a relationship that depends on the abortion, I feel the agreement between them should address this. Demanding freedom to solve your own problems means demanding all of the responsibilities that come with them.
What will end up happening is John would make it clear that having an abortion means Mary will be liable for any damages that come with backing out of the agreement. If John's house had been sold and he could not go home, he would be left in a position where he held up his end of the bargain and she did not.
Since the contract was essentially anulled on betrayal, John and Mary were both freed from their responsibilities. Problem is, Mary lost nothing because she decided to no longer value the child or the relationship, and now John is homeless.
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Last edited by sage_gerard on Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
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Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | i am incensed by pro-life standpoints, regardless of whether it comes from a man or a woman. |
That explains a lot.
If you are so emotionally devoted to your opinion on this, it's unlikely that you will be able to see your opponent's arguments and opinions as they really are. |
most people have an oar in this water, so i am not particularly unique. i can definitely see the arguments as they are, but i am not likely to ever change my mind on this matter. so if that is your intent it will not work.
i come from the starting point that if a person takes away my right to have an abortion it risks my life. so a pro-life standpoints is hostile to me personally.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | for me the point of an internet debate is not to convince the other people of anything, it's to discuss the topic so that third parties can make their own decisions. i do not expect that an opponent will ever have their mind changed. |
Maybe not, but they can pick up on a few new things. I don't expect to change your mind on anything. I just want to make sure I'm not going to be wasting time typing a bunch of stuff when my points would not even be considered in the spirit of curiosity. There is a difference between disagreeing while genuinely listening and disagreeing by dismissing a point.
| hyperlexian wrote: | | maybe, maybe not. i can't abide by people wanting to decide what happens to my body. it is personal on a life-or-death level. there is likely no point in debating the subject with me as i will not change my mind about that aspect. |
Thanks for the heads up.
Now, I know there are sixty-f**ktillion ways of looking at this, but this is just one example. I could go on and on.
My position is that if a man and a woman make a commitment, they surrender certain freedoms as per the nature of contracts. Assume John wants to have a child with Mary and raise a family. Mary formally agrees under the condition that John moves in with her. After all is said and done, Mary suddenly get an abortion while John is eagerly awaiting the child, because "her body, her choice".
Duty, responsibility and integrity are the virtues that often justify a loss of liberty. Abortion does not bother me if the mother-to-be never sacrificed her right to get it, or if the contract she agreed to dissolved. (i.e. rape victim, breakup, etc.) It does bother me when it comes with this whole "I get to do whatever I want because eat me" mentality. I would not make a decision for someone else, but contracts represent relationships and they mean nothing if they are not enforced.
Abortion makes it possible for women to stop something they do not want to do. Fine, but when men have something at stake in a relationship that depends on the abortion, I feel the agreement between them should address this. Demanding freedom to solve your own problems means demanding all of the responsibilities that come with them.
What will end up happening is John would make it clear that having an abortion means Mary will be liable for any damages that come with backing out of the agreement. If John's house had been sold and he could not go home, he would be left in a position where he held up his end of the bargain and she did not.
Since the contract was essentially anulled on betrayal, John and Mary were both freed from their responsibilities. Problem is, Mary lost nothing because she never valued the child or the relationship, and now John is homeless. |
well, we have different ideas about the point of an internet debate. in any formal debate setting, the purpose is not to convince the other side, the purpose is to convince the spectators. so that is my perspective on internet debates as well. i don't know you (or anyone else) from Adam, so it does not matter to me personally if you agree with me.
in an ideal situation, i would like to see embryonic transplants so that men can have an equal say in what happens to their creation. but since that is not currently possible, the options are limited. it is not a system that is fair to the father, but science isn't advanced enough yet to allow both men and women the full range of options.
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Tim_Tex
Professor Hineybottom
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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As for abortion, it isn't something I encourage, but if someone ultimately makes that decision, I don't try to stop them. Basically, it means I would say no if someone were suggesting that I get one (or do anything else I don't agree with).
This goes for anything I don't agree with personally.
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | most people have an oar in this water, so i am not particularly unique. |
Well, I have an 'oar in the water' too, but that doesn't mean that the existence of people who disagree with me pisses me off.
| Quote: | | i come from the starting point that if a person takes away my right to have an abortion it risks my life. so a pro-life standpoints is hostile to me personally. |
That doesn't make sense.
| Quote: | | well, we have different ideas about the point of an internet debate. in any formal debate setting, the purpose is not to convince the other side, the purpose is to convince the spectators. |
I don't see much resemblance between a formal debate and an informal one on the internet. I see an informal internet debate as an opportunity to think logically about a subject and construct arguments and rebut arguments from other people. I've argued on the internet about lots of things, and I've learned a lot doing so. I haven't done much changing of major opinions, but it has certainly shifted my opinions of some things. Even when I don't leave a debate with a different opinion, I usually leave it with a better idea of what my opponents thought and why.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21990
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | most people have an oar in this water, so i am not particularly unique. |
Well, I have an 'oar in the water' too, but that doesn't mean that the existence of people who disagree with me pisses me off. |
their existence doesn't piss me off either. i see that you're drawing absurd conclusions about me, that's interesting but not relevant. do you have something else to say on the actual topic, or did you want to engage in some kind of snippy nastiness with me? because it's really not as fun as having actual debates on here.
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Ancalagon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | their existence doesn't piss me off either. |
That's not consistent with "i am incensed by pro-life standpoints" unless I'm missing something.
| Quote: | | do you have something else to say on the actual topic, |
I had several on-topic points answering your questions in earlier posts. If you want to continue conversing with me on topic, that would be a good place to start.
| Quote: | | or did you want to engage in some kind of snippy nastiness with me? |
I didn't insult or make nasty insinuations about anyone. I tried to steer things away from possible nastiness and several times mentioned that I didn't want to get into things further because abortion topics always turn nasty. So, quite clearly, the answer is no.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | their existence doesn't piss me off either. |
That's not consistent with "i am incensed by pro-life standpoints" unless I'm missing something. |
you ARE missing something. i bolded it. last i checked, a standpoint is not a person.
| Ancalagon wrote: | | Quote: | | or did you want to engage in some kind of snippy nastiness with me? |
I didn't insult or make nasty insinuations about anyone. I tried to steer things away from possible nastiness and several times mentioned that I didn't want to get into things further because abortion topics always turn nasty. So, quite clearly, the answer is no. |
you made a snide remark directed at me instead of posting on-topic. now that you are aware of it, i would expect that if you want to continue the discussion, you would make points about that instead of directing the snippiness at me. you didn't ever try to steer anything away from nastiness... you BROUGHT it.
since you don't seem to want to discuss the topic at hand, i don't see the point in continuing this excahnge.
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
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Age: 22
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | their existence doesn't piss me off either. |
That's not consistent with "i am incensed by pro-life standpoints" unless I'm missing something. |
you ARE missing something. i bolded it. last i checked, a standpoint is not a person. |
One could believe that anyone shorter than 5'5" should be buried alive. That is also a life or death situation that attacks liberty.
How much would that idea bother you if one smelly homeless guy was on the corner shouting it, compared to an organized political entity that Congress was seriously listening to?
If you are trying to say that malicious ideas alone bother you, regardless of their political representation, wouldn't you be angry all the time? You've got infinitely many things to be incensed about.
People seek to spread ideas and gain power, which makes them threatening to those who disagree. You may not like a standpoint, but people do factor in how much it bugs you.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | their existence doesn't piss me off either. |
That's not consistent with "i am incensed by pro-life standpoints" unless I'm missing something. |
you ARE missing something. i bolded it. last i checked, a standpoint is not a person. |
One could believe that anyone shorter than 5'5" should be buried alive. That is also a life or death situation that attacks liberty.
How much would that idea bother you if one smelly homeless guy was on the corner shouting it, compared to an organized political entity that Congress was seriously listening to?
If you are trying to say that malicious ideas alone bother you, regardless of their political representation, wouldn't you be angry all the time? You've got infinitely many things to be incensed about.
People seek to spread ideas and gain power, which makes them threatening to those who disagree. You may not like a standpoint, but people do factor in how much it bugs you. |
i would definitely be angry a lot more often if i paid attention to pro-life statements, but usually i don't. i intentionally avoid them both on the forum and in real life (this one sneaked up on me).
but even if i purposefully tried to encounter them at every opportunity, it is not possible to be immersed in those statements 24/7. and thankfully crazy people don't yell too much about that on the streetcorner. 
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | you ARE missing something. i bolded it. last i checked, a standpoint is not a person. |
Your interpretation was not how I meant it, but that is a fair point.
If I had thought of that, I would have ended the sentence like this: "that doesn't mean that people disagreeing with me pisses me off." Fair enough?
| Quote: | | you made a snide remark directed at me instead of posting on-topic. |
Then point it out instead of beating around the bush.
| Quote: | | you didn't ever try to steer anything away from nastiness... you BROUGHT it. |
I mentioned specifically 3 times to you and once to someone else that I didn't want to get into it much, and just had one quick point to make. I went out of my way to avoid phrasing things in a way that would likely spark a full fledged debate on abortion. I did not insult you back when you compared me to an abusive boyfriend and talked about my 'evil plans'.
What are you talking about?
| Quote: | | since you don't seem to want to discuss the topic at hand, |
Since you appear to have missed it in my last post, let me remind you that I made points that you did not bother answering. If you were interested in the topic at hand, you could respond to them. Why should I make more points when you aren't going to bother answering me?
Here's a link to one such post.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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about your link... i didn't say that bigotry should encompass abortion specifically. though technically it could be sexist, it is a stretch.
bigotry does address homophobia, which covers gay marriage.
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Tim_Tex
Professor Hineybottom
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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People tend to take it further and say that all Christians and Republicans are bigots, because of the abortion and same-sex marriage issues, regardless of whether one supports it or not.
As far as the Christian part, why are Christians attacked for intolerance, when Islam is even more intolerant? For example, people get angry at Christians because same-sex marriage is only legal in a few states, yet these people completely ignore the fact that homosexuality carries the death penalty in much of the Middle East. Of course, I am not saying that all Muslims are intolerant, but people for some reason like to single out Christians.
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sage_gerard
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim_Tex wrote: | | As far as the Christian part, why are Christians attacked for intolerance, when Islam is even more intolerant? |
Think really, really hard about what you just typed.
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