ZX_SpectrumDisorder
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Joined: Feb 25, 2012
Posts: 1608
Location: Ireland
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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CrinklyCrustacean
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Joined: Mar 23, 2009
Posts: 1223
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| ToughDiamond wrote: | It all looks pretty normal to me, what you've written there. Except that you've not said much about what attention you gave her at the ceilidh. I'm wondering if you might have inadvertently pushed her away by sticking to your friends more than she'd expected on that night, so she felt the relationship had stopped developing. You could have been really accommodating for all I know, but it can be very hard for an Aspie to balance a newcomer with existing friends.....also, if it had been a budding romance, I think it would be OK for friends to have to take a back seat while you gave your full attention to that.
Not that I'm saying it wasn't a budding romance or still can't be. To talk at length to a new person, if they're of the right sexual orientation for you, is one of the first steps to a relationship, it's called chatting up......then you asked her along to a social thing, and she accepted, which is another step. At such an early stage, the question "is it just friendly banter or is it romance?" is meaningless........it IS just friendly banter, but what happens next depends on what you both do next. You can either collectively develop it or not. Any time along the road, one may notice dealbreakers and drop out. I suppose people chat even if there's no sexual chemistry for them, but they wouldn't normally continue associating with you as a man-woman pair unless there was some other definite shared purpose, and even then there would be an awareness, and care might have to be taken to avoid giving the wrong impression.......and things can change - what starts a simple alliance for a practical shared purpose can very easily deepen. Even the sexual chemistry can change.? |
Ok. First, I didn't talk a lot about the ceilidh because it wasn't really the point. My point was that because there was no mutual romantic interest, the invititation to the Ceilidh was not asking her on a date. Also it never was anyway, because it was something I wanted to do with my friends, and dates are one-to-one events. Second, I don't understand how the question, "Is it just friendly banter or is it romance?" is meaningless. Surely if the answer to the question is, "It's friendly banter" then you are friends, and if the answer is, "It's romantic" then there is the possibility she will accept being asked out? The assumption that because I spent a long time chatting with a girl I'd just met means there is mutual romantic interest is flawed, IMO. I could spend that long talking to her because I found what she had to say interesting on its own merits, and vice-versa. If I actually found what T said boring, you can bet I would have changed the subject, but I didn't because I found it interesting. Also, I thought "Chatting up" in the classic sense was when you walked up to a girl you'd never met, introduced yourself (possibly including a cheap pickup line such as "Hi sugar, you're looking sweet tonight") and attempted to start a conversation with the sole intent of developing a relationship or a one-night stand. A simple conversation like I had was just a means of getting to know her as a person - I had no ulterior motive at any point. I'm still having a bit of trouble reconciling my views with yours on these points, though.
Anyway, to answer your questions: no, I didn't push her away; my own feelings for her (which had already reduced over time with not seeing/hearing from her) faded over the course of the night. Further, I doubt she ever noticed how much I liked her, or even that I liked her at all. I did try and get a reasonable number of dances with her, though, and balance it out a bit with my other friends.
| ToughDiamond wrote: | | Did you kiss her? |
NO I MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT!  She clearly wasn't interested and even if she had been there wasn't much opportunity. The dance lasted about 40 minutes, but in case that seems short it was the Irish kind of ceilidh, not the Scottish. The Irish version is MUCH faster, and we were all absolutely knackered by the end of it, plus we all had to catch trains home fairly soon after. No goodnight kiss on the cheek, definitely no snogging, just a friendly goodbye. I saw her one last time a few months later, when I went to watch another play C was in, and that was 4 years ago. For various very unfortunate reasons, even her close friends have difficulty getting hold of her now, but that after-show party is one moment I won't forget in a hurry. It was actually a fabulous evening overall: even if she hadn't been there I'd have said the same thing.  |
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ToughDiamond
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Joined: Sep 16, 2008
Age: 60
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CrinklyCrustacean wrote: | | because there was no mutual romantic interest, the invititation to the Ceilidh was not asking her on a date. |
True, it wasn't as datey as an appointment for a one-on-one social evening, but it wasn't a million miles away from that either. You might have ended up "coupling off" together if you'd shown enough interest in her. There was potential there.
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Also it never was anyway, because it was something I wanted to do with my friends, and dates are one-to-one events |
Yes, but would you have invited her at all if you hadn't desired better acquaintance with her?
| Quote: | | I don't understand how the question, "Is it just friendly banter or is it romance?" is meaningless. |
What I mean is, it's not a question of black or white. The answer is usually a shade of grey. Provided the lady is even vaguely open to a new relationship with a guy at all, romance can't be ruled out, even if she initially doesn't feel particularly attracted to you. My first serious girlfriend, who married me, said that after our first encounter she'd decided not to see me again, but a couple of her friends persuaded her to give me another chance. If they'd not been there, I'd have simply concluded that she'd not been interested. Do you see what I'm driving at? The decision she has to make is the only black-or-white thing about it. When a person decides to cross somebody off their list of possible partners, there is usually at least a grain of doubt. If you were to get stuck with that person in a lift, your behaviour could remove that doubt or it could amplify it.
| Quote: | | Surely if the answer to the question is, "It's friendly banter" then you are friends, and if the answer is, "It's romantic" then there is the possibility she will accept being asked out? |
I don't think it's at all common for friendly banter to happen without at least a tiny spark of romantic feeling, if it's a boy and a girl and they're heterosexual. At that point it's often almost nothing, but the warmth she feels for you is never absolute zero. That includes sexual warmth. Obviously if you start annoying each other then that feeling will hide away, but if you resolve it, the feeling will come back. And the effect on a person of knowing that a potential lover seems interested, shouldn't be overlooked. People warm to people who like them. Just don't overdo it - premature confessions of powerful amorous feelings can be more scary than flattering, and in my experience if somebody is too well-assured of another's willingness to be their partner, they don't value it so much, and are tempted to put the person on hold while they see if there's anything better elsewhere - after all, the besotted one will probably still be there as an insurance policy.
| Quote: | | The assumption that because I spent a long time chatting with a girl I'd just met means there is mutual romantic interest is flawed, IMO. I could spend that long talking to her because I found what she had to say interesting on its own merits, and vice-versa. If I actually found what T said boring, you can bet I would have changed the subject, but I didn't because I found it interesting. |
I don't mean that just because she talked to you one-on-one for a long time, she was in love with you. If a woman chats with me for a long time like that, and I'm looking for a partner, I'd always feel slightly curious about what it might be like if we had a relationship. To me, there is no such thing as an ineligible woman, just that some women are less eligible than others, sometimes very close to zero eligibility, but never beyond redemption unless I've had that relationship with them and its turned out bad. Nobody knows what somebody's like in bed until they've been to bed with them. Nobody knows how good a partner a person might be until they are their partner. So we try to forecast, but we know it's only an estimate. Sure, in practice people approximate and assign low eligibility to zero eligibility, but new information can be presented......as with being found guilty in a court case, one can appeal with new evidence and new arguments. You can even do that from jail.
| Quote: | | Also, I thought "Chatting up" in the classic sense was when you walked up to a girl you'd never met, introduced yourself (possibly including a cheap pickup line such as "Hi sugar, you're looking sweet tonight") and attempted to start a conversation with the sole intent of developing a relationship or a one-night stand. A simple conversation like I had was just a means of getting to know her as a person - I had no ulterior motive at any point. I'm still having a bit of trouble reconciling my views with yours on these points, though. |
Yes you can make it obvious that your invitation is ultimately sexual, and then if she turns up, there's a close to 100% chance that she's equally interested in that, but I suspect most relationships come about more gradually, beginning as friendly banter and run-of-the-mill social interest, and growing deeper over time as you share more together. I've never done the "Hi sugar" thing. I just make platonic friends with them and take it from there. It's not that I'm hiding my sexual ideas any more than anybody else does (no sexual partner of mine ever bothered to tell me that they fancied me, they just sat there and waited for me to risk making a total fool of myself......Lord! The stress they could have saved me if they'd just been open and honest about their hidden sexual desires for me....but they don't work that way. It seems to be bioiogically hard-wired. But it should have been obvious to me. If they like sex, and they like me (they wouldn't spend much social time with me if they didn't), then I don't see any reason why they would set it in stone that I wasn't sexually acceptable. Mostly I think it's the competition that tips the balance.......if they like another guy more, they'll subtract the other guy's rating from mine and see me as less than zero, but that's a relative zero, not an absolute zero. If that hunky rival makes a jerk of himself just once, my rating will go back into the black, and if he did something rotten that she knows I don't do, I could become Mr. Popular.. Everybody hates Dave Miliband now, but every time Cameron annoys the public, they will love Miliband a little more.
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Anyway, to answer your questions: no, I didn't push her away; my own feelings for her (which had already reduced over time with not seeing/hearing from her) faded over the course of the night. Further, I doubt she ever noticed how much I liked her, or even that I liked her at all. I did try and get a reasonable number of dances with her, though, and balance it out a bit with my other friends. |
You showed her that you liked her by inviting her to the ceilidh. Would you say that the root cause of "losing" her that night was that you didn't show much interest, or that she didn't show much interest and therefore made you think you weren't wanted, thus dampening your (potential) ardour and your interest in her?
| Quote: | | ToughDiamond wrote: | | Did you kiss her? |
NO I MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT! She clearly wasn't interested and even if she had been there wasn't much opportunity. The dance lasted about 40 minutes, but in case that seems short it was the Irish kind of ceilidh, not the Scottish. The Irish version is MUCH faster, and we were all absolutely knackered by the end of it, plus we all had to catch trains home fairly soon after. No goodnight kiss on the cheek, definitely no snogging, just a friendly goodbye. I saw her one last time a few months later, when I went to watch another play C was in, and that was 4 years ago. For various very unfortunate reasons, even her close friends have difficulty getting hold of her now, but that after-show party is one moment I won't forget in a hurry. It was actually a fabulous evening overall: even if she hadn't been there I'd have said the same thing. |
Maybe there was too much distraction for you to get near each other. I wonder what would have happened if you'd asked her on a one-on-one date? I agree you were probably right not to kiss her......too forward at that stage. Though if you approach in a certain way (slowly, no grabbing), then it would have been interesting to see if she backed away........you could then have saved face by pretending it never happened (which it wouldn't have of course). Why not ask her on a "proper" date, and find out whether she's worthy of you? |
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CrinklyCrustacean
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Joined: Mar 23, 2009
Posts: 1223
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| ToughDiamond wrote: | | True, it wasn't as datey as an appointment for a one-on-one social evening, but it wasn't a million miles away from that either. You might have ended up "coupling off" together if you'd shown enough interest in her. There was potential there. |
Relationships are reciprocal; it doesn't matter how much interest I show, if she doesn't show any then nothing will happen. Also I don't see how it can be a date if friends are around.
| ToughDiamond wrote: | | Yes, but would you have invited her at all if you hadn't desired better acquaintance with her? |
If I had not been badly crushing on her, yes I would have invited her in order to develop our friendship.
| Quote: | | What I mean is, it's not a question of black or white. The answer is usually a shade of grey. Provided the lady is even vaguely open to a new relationship with a guy at all, romance can't be ruled out, even if she initially doesn't feel particularly attracted to you. My first serious girlfriend, who married me, said that after our first encounter she'd decided not to see me again, but a couple of her friends persuaded her to give me another chance. If they'd not been there, I'd have simply concluded that she'd not been interested. Do you see what I'm driving at? The decision she has to make is the only black-or-white thing about it. When a person decides to cross somebody off their list of possible partners, there is usually at least a grain of doubt. If you were to get stuck with that person in a lift, your behaviour could remove that doubt or it could amplify it. |
Yes, but unless she mentions it, there is no way to tell whether she is already open to a relationship or not. Also, even if she is, there's still the question of whether she's interested in going out with YOU, which is not the same thing.
| Quote: | | I don't think it's at all common for friendly banter to happen without at least a tiny spark of romantic feeling, if it's a boy and a girl and they're heterosexual. At that point it's often almost nothing, but the warmth she feels for you is never absolute zero. That includes sexual warmth. Obviously if you start annoying each other then that feeling will hide away, but if you resolve it, the feeling will come back. And the effect on a person of knowing that a potential lover seems interested, shouldn't be overlooked. People warm to people who like them. Just don't overdo it - premature confessions of powerful amorous feelings can be more scary than flattering, and in my experience if somebody is too well-assured of another's willingness to be their partner, they don't value it so much, and are tempted to put the person on hold while they see if there's anything better elsewhere - after all, the besotted one will probably still be there as an insurance policy. |
Yeah, but you can't do anything unless you are certain the romantic interest is there.
| Quote: | | Would you say that the root cause of "losing" her that night was that you didn't show much interest, or that she didn't show much interest and therefore made you think you weren't wanted, thus dampening your (potential) ardour and your interest in her? |
I didn't lose her. Losing her implies I did something wrong to put her off me, I missed an opportunity to ask her out, or that someone managed to 'steal' her from me. I don't think that's the case. The reasons we didn't "couple off" were firstly because there wasn't really an opportunity (no slow dances or time to talk once the dancing started) secondly because she didn't show any interest, and thirdly because I wasn't so keen about a couple of her personality traits.
| Quote: | | Maybe there was too much distraction for you to get near each other. I wonder what would have happened if you'd asked her on a one-on-one date? I agree you were probably right not to kiss her......too forward at that stage. Though if you approach in a certain way (slowly, no grabbing), then it would have been interesting to see if she backed away........you could then have saved face by pretending it never happened (which it wouldn't have of course). Why not ask her on a "proper" date, and find out whether she's worthy of you? |
Not really. It wasn't a question of bad technique but rather a lack of opportunity, no interest on her part, and waning feelings on my part. As for asking her on a proper date 4 years down the line, as I said, even her close friends, including our mutual friend C, have trouble getting hold of her.
I think what's happening is we are approaching the subject from two different angles. For you, you start out with the assumption that she has some romantic interest in you by virtue of you being a boy and her being a girl and both of you being straight. You then build on that assumption during the course of your first conversation with the girl. For me, I start out with no assumptions, other than this person is nice until proven otherwise and would possibly make a good friend. Actually, that's not true. If I fancy her, then I assume she's already taken.**** In any case, we start conversing and I proceed along the "let's be friends" line. If she fancies me, the onus is on her to indicate this fact. I won't be making any moves unless she gives me good reason to do so. From my perspective if she isn't interested then I may as well ask out a brick wall. I'm not really sure what you're advocating. Are you saying I should ask out every girl I meet, or I should date every girl who asks me despite not being interested? That's a serious question, by the way, even though I think those scenarios are silly and would result in unnecessary pain on both sides. Obviously if there was mutual attraction and I recognised her signals that she'd like me to ask her out, then of course I would.  I'm just not really sure what the merits are of assuming the possibility is there if she doesn't indicate it is so.
*** Yes, I know this is an unhealthy attitude, and there has to be a better approach. It also happens to be true in my experience that most girls, regardless of whether I want to date them or not, are taken, and I'm not prepared to break up any relationships. That's just immoral IMO. Also, this assumption makes it easier for me to talk with people I'm attracted to as I tend to turn into the classic shy teenager in their presence.
Last edited by CrinklyCrustacean on Sat May 05, 2012 11:22 am; edited 7 times in total |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| minervx wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | if i am not seriously making out with the guy (or girl) during the date (or at the end by the latest), then it was not a successful date in my mind as the chemistry must have been lacking. i do not know if other people feel this way or not. |
expecting a passionate makeout during the FIRST date, is possible, but I don't think many people are on that boat with you. |
most of my dates happened with someone who was already expressing interest in me, so we were not going into it cold. i think it might be different when a couple is meeting for the first time or something (like for online dating). in the case of my experiences, we had already established that there was chemistry and it was just a matter of finding the right moment to act on it.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| ZX_SpectrumDisorder wrote: | | CrinklyCrustacean wrote: | | ZX_SpectrumDisorder wrote: | | It all really depends on the circumstances of the date and how it came about. Has a friend set you up with someone you've only met once or twice? Is is it with someone you've grown to know over time from say... work? Is it someone you've met online and chatted to without meeting? |
Oh, I don't have a date lined up. It's more of a "When it happens" approach. I don't want to reach that point and then the evening falls flat because I don't know what to do at the end. |
That's what I meant. There are different approaches appropriate to the circumstances. Say for instance, it was someone you grew to know over time and you both decided to see each other, then THE HYPERLEXIAN APPROACH is perfectly fine. If it's someone you don't know and have been introduced to, then THE HYPERLEXIAN APPROACH isn't fine, what is appropriate here is a kiss at the end of the date (I would always ask first) and take it from there. In an Internet Dating situation, I would take it as a given that both parties are at least talking on the phone/Skype/Cam and texting, then THE HYPERLEXIAN APPROACH might also still be fine, but a period demonstrating that you are who you've been online/phone/texts and not some axe murderer or a psychotic mentalist b***h. In this case I'd suggest a casual meal some place, followed by a walk/chat on the way to a bar then unless it has been an absolute disaster - apply THE HYPERLEXIAN APPROACH at the date's end.
I'm thinking THE HYPERLEXIAN APPROACH instructions should be printed on a little card like you get on budget airlines or like the illustrated instruction leaflets you get in some restaurants for THE HEIMLICH MANOEUVRE. |
hahaha i missed this. i like how you repeated THE HYPERLEXIAN APPROACH in block capitals.
***
i also agree with something ToughDiamond was getting at with this statement:
| ToughDiamond wrote: | | If I were to tongue somebody, I'd feel I was giving them at least an amber light for sex |
i also see kissing as a gateway sexual act.
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CrinklyCrustacean
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Joined: Mar 23, 2009
Posts: 1223
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | i also agree with something ToughDiamond was getting at with this statement:
| ToughDiamond wrote: | | If I were to tongue somebody, I'd feel I was giving them at least an amber light for sex |
i also see kissing as a gateway sexual act. |
Depending on the type of kiss. |
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Maerlyn138
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 03, 2005
Age: 41
Posts: 476
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| CrinklyCrustacean wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | i also agree with something ToughDiamond was getting at with this statement:
| ToughDiamond wrote: | | If I were to tongue somebody, I'd feel I was giving them at least an amber light for sex |
i also see kissing as a gateway sexual act. |
Depending on the type of kiss. |
At this point, I'd get a chubby from ANY kind of kiss....
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ToughDiamond
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Joined: Sep 16, 2008
Age: 60
Posts: 4751
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Maerlyn138 wrote: | | CrinklyCrustacean wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | i also agree with something ToughDiamond was getting at with this statement:
| ToughDiamond wrote: | | If I were to tongue somebody, I'd feel I was giving them at least an amber light for sex |
i also see kissing as a gateway sexual act. |
Depending on the type of kiss. |
At this point, I'd get a chubby from ANY kind of kiss.... |
I bet you wouldn't from me.  |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| CrinklyCrustacean wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | i also agree with something ToughDiamond was getting at with this statement:
| ToughDiamond wrote: | | If I were to tongue somebody, I'd feel I was giving them at least an amber light for sex |
i also see kissing as a gateway sexual act. |
Depending on the type of kiss. |
i have rarely had any other type of kiss with a mate. i save my platonic kisses for old ladies and children.
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26047
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | i have rarely had any other type of kiss with a mate. |
You passionately kiss your platonic friends? Wow, you'd be popular. |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | i have rarely had any other type of kiss with a mate. |
You passionately kiss your platonic friends? Wow, you'd be popular. |
i don't kiss my platonic friends. that would feel weird to me. it's probably a cultural thing, as people don't do it here.
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bucephalus
LOVES the woman who loves the man who's out of spa
Joined: Jan 27, 2009
Age: 30
Posts: 1847
Location: with Hyperlexian
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | i have rarely had any other type of kiss with a mate. |
You passionately kiss your platonic friends? Wow, you'd be popular. ;) |
i think she meant "mate" as in something other than platonic friend ;) |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26047
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bucephalus wrote: | | i think she meant "mate" as in something other than platonic friend |
I'm aware yeah. |
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Maerlyn138
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 03, 2005
Age: 41
Posts: 476
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ToughDiamond wrote: | | Maerlyn138 wrote: | | CrinklyCrustacean wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | i also agree with something ToughDiamond was getting at with this statement:
| ToughDiamond wrote: | | If I were to tongue somebody, I'd feel I was giving them at least an amber light for sex |
i also see kissing as a gateway sexual act. |
Depending on the type of kiss. |
At this point, I'd get a chubby from ANY kind of kiss.... |
I bet you wouldn't from me. |
Well.......
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