edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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 Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| fragileclover wrote: | | While what you've said makes great sense, there are those who believe that diagnosis should only be used as a means to attain some form of tangible assistance, and that's the problem. |
What problem does it cause? If they need no assistance (tangible or otherwise), there is no problem that a diagnosis could possibly address.
The assistance doesn't have to be tangible, but the problem does.
| Quote: | | Anyone should be free to seek a diagnosis for any reason they see fit; as the reason doesn't make anyone more or less autistic. |
Thats like saying anyone should be able to check in to ER to see if they have a broken leg whenever they see fit. It doesn't work like that. It's a waste of limited resources (and it doesn't matter whether it happens on the free market or not, the resources are still limited, and need to be directed to where they're needed).
Diagnosis itself doesn't make anyone more or less autistic either. You don't need a diagnosis to identify with it. This is MEDICAL. It's a diagnosis. A diagnosis - any diagnosis - is part of a treatment. It has no other function.
That treatment can be as simple as a vehicle for exemptions (such as in your case), to much more hands-on stuff, but it's still something that's addressing a tangible problem. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| I can never agree with people that give themself a self diagnosis. Having some like Autism being confirmed by a professional some one that knows for a fact if a person does in fact have AS or Autism is the only one qualifed to make a diagnosis. |
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10202
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | I can never agree with people that give themself a self diagnosis. Having some like Autism being confirmed by a professional some one that knows for a fact if a person does in fact have AS or Autism is the only one qualifed to make a diagnosis. |
This ground has been covered numerous times. A search for self-diagnosis on this forum should find past discussions. |
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btbnnyr
Rabbit In Cat's Clothing
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 3122
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| I do not like the confusion between AS and introversion and between AS and nerdiness that I sometimes see here. There seems to be the occasional confusion between AS and misanthropy too. I feel that people who consider AS to be an eggstreme of introversion, nerdiness, or misanthropy do not have AS. Otherwise, they would know that AS is not introversion, nerdiness, or misanthropy. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Verdandi wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | I can never agree with people that give themself a self diagnosis. Having some like Autism being confirmed by a professional some one that knows for a fact if a person does in fact have AS or Autism is the only one qualifed to make a diagnosis. |
This ground has been covered numerous times. A search for self-diagnosis on this forum should find past discussions. |
Still though I have read this issues being covered numerous times but I will still go back to what I have stated. I mean you can't give yourself a self-diagnosis of aids or HIV unless tested for it how else would you know if you had it? |
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fragileclover
Velociraptor
Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| edgewaters wrote: | | fragileclover wrote: | | While what you've said makes great sense, there are those who believe that diagnosis should only be used as a means to attain some form of tangible assistance, and that's the problem. |
What problem does it cause? If they need no assistance (tangible or otherwise), there is no problem that a diagnosis could possibly address.
The assistance doesn't have to be tangible, but the problem does.
| Quote: | | Anyone should be free to seek a diagnosis for any reason they see fit; as the reason doesn't make anyone more or less autistic. |
Thats like saying anyone should be able to check in to ER to see if they have a broken leg whenever they see fit. It doesn't work like that. It's a waste of limited resources (and it doesn't matter whether it happens on the free market or not, the resources are still limited, and need to be directed to where they're needed).
Diagnosis itself doesn't make anyone more or less autistic either. You don't need a diagnosis to identify with it. This is MEDICAL. It's a diagnosis. A diagnosis - any diagnosis - is part of a treatment. It has no other function.
That treatment can be as simple as a vehicle for exemptions (such as in your case), to much more hands-on stuff, but it's still something that's addressing a tangible problem. |
This comparison only works if the person has reason to believe that their leg is broken. If they have reason to believe their leg is broken, because either they fell or injured themselves, or are experiencing pain and difficulty/inability to walk, then OF COURSE they have a reason to go to the ER. are you saying there are people who just seek a diagnosis of AS for the hell of it? Like, they are sitting around bored one day and say, 'hell, why not shell out $1,500 today to see if I have an autistic disorder'? That's the only way your comparison could possibly work. People seek an AS diagnosis because they believe they have AS. Period.
_________________
Aspie Quiz: AS - 141/200, NT - 77/200 (Very likely an Aspie)
AQ: 34/50 (Aspie range)
EQ: 32 / SQ: 68 (Extreme Systemizing / AS or HFA)
Diagnosed with AS and Anxiety Disorder - NOS on 03/21/2012 |
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10202
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| btbnnyr wrote: | | I do not like the confusion between AS and introversion and between AS and nerdiness that I sometimes see here. There seems to be the occasional confusion between AS and misanthropy too. I feel that people who consider AS to be an eggstreme of introversion, nerdiness, or misanthropy do not have AS. Otherwise, they would know that AS is not introversion, nerdiness, or misanthropy. |
I agree with this. I admit, I am extremely introverted, and I am a nerd, but when I think of being autistic, it's more about how difficult socializing is, how overwhelming sensory input can be, how fixated on my interests I can become, and so on.
| Joker wrote: | | Still though I have read this issues being covered numerous times but I will still go back to what I have stated. I mean you can't give yourself a self-diagnosis of aids or HIV unless tested for it how else would you know if you had it? |
There is no comparison between being HIV-positive and having autism. You need a blood test to discover the presence of HIV antibodies. However, if you have AIDS, you will know that something is wrong because it will manifest with a set of symptoms. You may mistake it for something else (like the flu) but over time, you will likely realize you have something more serious and seek a diagnosis.
Autism is diagnosed through behavioral observation, and unlike the antibody makeup in one's own blood, people can sometimes observe their own behavior, or others can point things out to them. I was able to determine I was on the autistic spectrum by speaking to autistic people, observing my own behavior, reading the writings of various autistic people on this forum, in books, in blogs, and so on. I was officially diagnosed four months after I self-diagnosed. So yes, people can at least sometimes determine that they are autistic. If it was as you said, I never would have been able to come to that conclusion without professional intervention.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Your opinion may be that a professional is required to determine that one is truly autistic. However, factually speaking, there are numerous people on this forum alone who determined they were on the spectrum and later had that determination (self-diagnosis) confirmed by a professional. Your opinion lacks a factual basis.
Self-diagnosis is also not particularly relevant to this thread, as it is about seeking professional diagnosis and the motivations for doing so. The reason I mentioned self-diagnosis was because fragile_clover said that the people who hold a particular opinion that I happen to hold must also be the same people who oppose self-diagnosis. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| fragileclover wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | fragileclover wrote: | | While what you've said makes great sense, there are those who believe that diagnosis should only be used as a means to attain some form of tangible assistance, and that's the problem. |
What problem does it cause? If they need no assistance (tangible or otherwise), there is no problem that a diagnosis could possibly address.
The assistance doesn't have to be tangible, but the problem does.
| Quote: | | Anyone should be free to seek a diagnosis for any reason they see fit; as the reason doesn't make anyone more or less autistic. |
Thats like saying anyone should be able to check in to ER to see if they have a broken leg whenever they see fit. It doesn't work like that. It's a waste of limited resources (and it doesn't matter whether it happens on the free market or not, the resources are still limited, and need to be directed to where they're needed).
Diagnosis itself doesn't make anyone more or less autistic either. You don't need a diagnosis to identify with it. This is MEDICAL. It's a diagnosis. A diagnosis - any diagnosis - is part of a treatment. It has no other function.
That treatment can be as simple as a vehicle for exemptions (such as in your case), to much more hands-on stuff, but it's still something that's addressing a tangible problem. |
This comparison only works if the person has reason to believe that their leg is broken. If they have reason to believe their leg is broken, because either they fell or injured themselves, or are experiencing pain and difficulty/inability to walk, then OF COURSE they have a reason to go to the ER. are you saying there are people who just seek a diagnosis of AS for the hell of it? Like, they are sitting around bored one day and say, 'hell, why not shell out $1,500 today to see if I have an autistic disorder'? That's the only way your comparison could possibly work. People seek an AS diagnosis because they believe they have AS. Period. |
If people want to get a diagnosis to see if they have AS or autism in general that is fine I see nothing wrong with it but a lot of peopel who are really depressed some times do not have AS or Autism they are just depressed. |
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10202
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| fragileclover wrote: |
This comparison only works if the person has reason to believe that their leg is broken. If they have reason to believe their leg is broken, because either they fell or injured themselves, or are experiencing pain and difficulty/inability to walk, then OF COURSE they have a reason to go to the ER. are you saying there are people who just seek a diagnosis of AS for the hell of it? Like, they are sitting around bored one day and say, 'hell, why not shell out $1,500 today to see if I have an autistic disorder'? That's the only way your comparison could possibly work. People seek an AS diagnosis because they believe they have AS. Period. |
But people on this forum say that seeking a diagnosis when one isn't impaired is fine and reasonable, and if one isn't impaired one simply does not meet the criteria for AS, and thus does not have AS.
In one thread I started recently, at least one person involved in that thread insisted that there is very likely a large population of undiagnosed adults with AS who are simply not impaired and that we cannot determine what employment rates for autistic people are without including these unimpaired people in the total numbers, even though someone who is unimpaired doesn't have a disorder.
Last edited by Verdandi on Sun May 06, 2012 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| fragileclover wrote: | | This comparison only works if the person has reason to believe that their leg is broken. If they have reason to believe their leg is broken, because either they fell or injured themselves, or are experiencing pain and difficulty/inability to walk, then OF COURSE they have a reason to go to the ER. |
Yes, because they have a problem and they need help. |
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bnky
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 20, 2011
Posts: 479
Location: Kent, England
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Rebel_Nowe wrote: | | I find the idea that needing assistance is crucial to the decision to be diagnosed to be unfair to those of us who learned to seriously cope at a time in their lives when diagnosis was not a possibility. I don't think (short of future, serious college grad/post grad work I may need extra time for) that I will ever need more real assistance than my wife can provide. However, an official diagnosis could help me a sometimes. For one, people would believe me and understand when stress and social issues do arise, when people refuse to accept how draining a normal day at work can be, etc. |
Absolutely!
I didn't think I was adversely affected by anything within me, until I was first pointed towards Asperger's at the age of 45. Since then I've begun to realise just how badly I have been adversely effected by it.
I'm hopefully banging my head against less (figurative) walls now, and am beginning to think I may well benefit from some of the available help after all. |
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fragileclover
Velociraptor
Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Verdandi wrote: | | fragileclover wrote: |
This comparison only works if the person has reason to believe that their leg is broken. If they have reason to believe their leg is broken, because either they fell or injured themselves, or are experiencing pain and difficulty/inability to walk, then OF COURSE they have a reason to go to the ER. are you saying there are people who just seek a diagnosis of AS for the hell of it? Like, they are sitting around bored one day and say, 'hell, why not shell out $1,500 today to see if I have an autistic disorder'? That's the only way your comparison could possibly work. People seek an AS diagnosis because they believe they have AS. Period. |
But people on this forum say that seeking a diagnosis when one isn't impaired is fine and reasonable, and if one isn't impaired one simply does not meet the criteria for AS, and thus does not have AS.
In one thread I started recently, at least one person involved in that thread insisted that there is very likely a large population of undiagnosed adults with AS who are simply not impaired and that we cannot determine what employment rates for autistic people are without including these unimpaired people in the total numbers, even though someone who is unimpaired doesn't have a disorder. |
Oh. It seems odd to me that someone would even end up here on WP if they didn't have some impairments. I'm definitely not behind diagnosis of a 'personality type.' Again, there are people here who have impairments, who might like to call AS a difference, perhaps as a source of self-esteem or just liking to put a positive spin on things...but if there are people claiming that AS doesn't cause any impairments, well, those people clearly don't have AS.
Hopefully, the person in that thread chose their wording poorly, and they simply meant that there may be a population of undiagnosed adults who aren't OBVIOUSLY impaired. This is totally plausible. If they truly meant not impaired at all, they have no idea what they are talking about. No one can argue that impairments are an absolute requirement for diagnosis.
Maybe some of this does come down to semantics. It's easy to say one thing and mean another. I want to make it clear that I don't support the absurd idea that AS is simply a personality type that causes differences, not impairments. However, maybe we need to make it a point here on WP to clarify what people mean when they say: "I'm seeking a diagnosis because I want to understand myself better." Some might immediately read this as, "I have an odd personality, and want some sort of validation or excuse for it." It's very possible, though, that the person is impaired, but is primarily motivated by a lack of understanding of those impairments.
_________________
Aspie Quiz: AS - 141/200, NT - 77/200 (Very likely an Aspie)
AQ: 34/50 (Aspie range)
EQ: 32 / SQ: 68 (Extreme Systemizing / AS or HFA)
Diagnosed with AS and Anxiety Disorder - NOS on 03/21/2012 |
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fragileclover
Velociraptor
Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Verdandi wrote: | | I am not against self-diagnosis at all and have argued many times as to why self-diagnosis is not a bad thing, but I feel that the above items I mention tend to be fairly trivializing and the tendency for this topic to come up is one reason I don't participate as much here as I used to. I don't mind people saying "I relate more to autistic people than I do to neurotypicals" or even "I relate more to Aspies," or whatever. But when they try to use their own personal experiences to define what AS is or should be, that tends to leave those of us who have serious impairments and are diagnosed with AS out of their definitions, and frequently leaves me wondering if I should have been diagnosed with autism instead. |
Yes, I understand. I don't like sweeping generalities when it comes to the autism spectrum. For instance, I see some people make claims that "people with AS don't have a lack of empathy...in fact, they are too empathetic!" -- while I believe that statement is true for a portion of people with AS (myself included), there are just as many people with AS who agree with the notion that Aspies are under empathetic. People tend to grab onto things that relate to them, and then measure everyone else against those things. I see this go both ways - milder cases discrediting the more severe cases, and the more severe cases discrediting the mild cases. This is why, in theory, I'm behind the DSM-V changes. For people with varying degrees of impairments to have the same diagnosis, it's no wonder the AS diagnosis meets so much scrutiny from the general public. Most disorders are a bit more uniform in their presentation, but I think how AS 'looks' is more affected by secondary symptoms, like sensory issues, which aren't part of the diagnosis. I mean, it makes the difference between one person being able to drive, go grocery shopping, etc, and another being stuck in their home most of the time.
I think, when comparing ourselves to one another, we have to remember the symptoms that are in the DSM...the symptoms that landed us this diagnosis, because comparing anything else is futile.
_________________
Aspie Quiz: AS - 141/200, NT - 77/200 (Very likely an Aspie)
AQ: 34/50 (Aspie range)
EQ: 32 / SQ: 68 (Extreme Systemizing / AS or HFA)
Diagnosed with AS and Anxiety Disorder - NOS on 03/21/2012 |
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bnky
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 20, 2011
Posts: 479
Location: Kent, England
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Rebel_Nowe wrote: | | I find the idea that needing assistance is crucial to the decision to be diagnosed to be unfair to those of us who learned to seriously cope at a time in their lives when diagnosis was not a possibility. I don't think (short of future, serious college grad/post grad work I may need extra time for) that I will ever need more real assistance than my wife can provide. However, an official diagnosis could help me a sometimes. For one, people would believe me and understand when stress and social issues do arise, when people refuse to accept how draining a normal day at work can be, etc. |
Absolutely!
I didn't think I was adversely affected by anything within me, until I was first pointed towards Asperger's at the age of 45. Since then I've begun to realise just how badly I have been adversely effected by it.
I'm hopefully banging my head against less (figurative) walls now, and am beginning to think I may well benefit from some of the available help after all. |
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CocoNuts
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 31, 2011
Posts: 169
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Tuttle wrote: | ...I think this entire argument is from people misinterpreting what I said.
I never said that everyone needs to have assistance to be impaired. I actually explicitly stated that its not necessary.
What I said is that the reason that people will have issues with people wanting a diagnosis without wanting assistance is because impairment is necessary and a majority of people who are impaired would greatly benefit from assistance. I never said that if you wouldn't benefit from assistance you are not impaired.
Everyone with an ASD has a disorder. Not everyone with an ASD is disabled by it, though most of us are disabled.
What I did say is that someone pursuing a diagnosis should ask themselves that where their impairments are, especially if they are not wanting assistance. I also tried to say that because society has been pushing for a view of Asperger's that isn't a disorder, but is instead only a difference, then people wanting a diagnosis when they're speaking as if it is not a disorder for them, will have people take offense. The fact that some of us have to regularly deal with people trying to discredit our diagnoses and our challenges because we were given the label of "Asperger's" instead of "Autistic" and its been being popularized to the socially awkward geek, means that to some of us, people discussing Asperger's as not having impairments is very frustrating. While someone who doesn't want help yet does have impairments can still be diagnosable, the focus on not wanting help and about how they don't need it, will make people be bothered by the fact that those statements make others minimize what they are dealing with personally.
The OP has already seemed to me to say that their view of assistance was different than those of us who were trying to describe this point of view. I don't think that part has any reason to be argued about for the OP (though if people want to continue discussing it, then that'd be reasonable). |
I don't actually have a very specific idea of what other people mean by "requiring assistance", and I'm not uninterested in hearing other people's opinions. My idea of it includes psychotherapy, accomodations at school/work, assistance with executive functioning...
I just think I don't require any of that because at the moment I don't live alone but I don't live with my parents with whom I have troubles, I don't need to make any particular effort in socializing since I get more than sufficient interaction from my boyfriend, I don't drive, I don't have a job because I still go to school. I don't know if/what I could get as accomodation in other more stressful situations, or about my not-romantic relationships which aren't going very well, but at the moment I'm ok with not having friends, not talking much with my family etc.
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Doubtful
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