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DogsWithoutHorses
mockingbyrd
Joined: Apr 06, 2012
Posts: 1145
Location: New York
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 Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Autism is a disability. The degree of disability varies from individual to individual and is greatly effected by their surrounding circumstances. Our diagnoses, the title of our disability, may be the same, but our needs can be very different.
I don't think it's a value judgement of how good/normal/potentially successful we are but I think it's a valuable legal term.
Because regardless of whether we are inherently disabled or if it's all social model (I think the truth lies somewhere between these points) there is discrimination and being in a protected class helps to legally prevent/mitigate the effects.
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If your success is defined as being well adjusted to injustice and well adapted to indifference, then we don’t want successful leaders. We want great leaders- who are unbought, unbound, unafraid, and unintimidated to tell the truth. |
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androbot2084
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
Posts: 3076
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| autistics are not disabled but rather they are super humans. Since regular humans cannot accept the super human they consider autistics to be disabled. For example if an autistic is very knowledgeable about a subject the neurotypical will consider the autistic not to be gifted but rather to be obsessed therefore mentally ill. |
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aghogday
KATiE MiA
Joined: Nov 26, 2010
Posts: 4745
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| androbot2084 wrote: | | autistics are not disabled but rather they are super humans. Since regular humans cannot accept the super human they consider autistics to be disabled. For example if an autistic is very knowledgeable about a subject the neurotypical will consider the autistic not to be gifted but rather to be obsessed therefore mentally ill. |
Regular human beings created the term autistic to describe impairments of function in regular human beings.
There are many people very knowledgeable about subjects that are not diagnosed with an ASD. Some have near photographic memories. And there have been extremely gifted individuals with severe mental illness, per those like John Nash with Schizophrenia.
The only person that I can remember being referred to as Superman lately in the media is Tim Tebow, but on the other hand some people ridicule him for what is considered unusual behavior by some, in several different avenues of life including religion, masculinity, and sexuality.
Everyone has their differences, but there is no evidence of superman in the world, because one can always find deficiencies in anyone.
However it is often those that excel in one area of obsession that are noticed, and credited for their achievements.
And furthermore it is often those with limits in mental and physical function that overcome adversity in life to reach the highest levels of achievement in life.
Some of the most notable US presidents that overcame this type of physical and mental adversity for achievement include Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and John F. Kennedy. But overall in the history of those that achieve, many are evidenced to have overcome mental, physical as well as environmental adversity in life.
There is no shame in admitting that one has limits, in fact, it is evidenced as overall advantage for some.
There is pride in overcoming adversity for survival, evidenced in untold numbers of our ancestors; the main reason we are here. |
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Silvervarg
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Posts: 773
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. 
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ALADDIN_1978
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| I have aspergers traits/bordeline aspergers. I am not disabled, I may have differences which make me an asset. I am fantastic at social interaction but not an excellent communicator. |
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Tuttle
Not a bird, a turtle.
Joined: Mar 27, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 2592
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Silvervarg wrote: | | ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. |
Asperger's is far more than "being logical". In fact, I'd argue that being logical isn't even part of having Asperger's. |
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Silvervarg
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Posts: 773
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Tuttle wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. |
Asperger's is far more than "being logical". In fact, I'd argue that being logical isn't even part of having Asperger's. |
Please elaborate because I've studied my fellow men and psycology on the universety and the only conclusion I have so far is that NTs are not logical, I am.
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvervarg wrote: | | Tuttle wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. |
Asperger's is far more than "being logical". In fact, I'd argue that being logical isn't even part of having Asperger's. |
Please elaborate because I've studied my fellow men and psycology on the universety and the only conclusion I have so far is that NTs are not logical, I am. |
I was not aware pride(not the positive kind)and logic went hand in hand, I personally would have to agree that it is not very logical to argue you're more logical than all NTs...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic just as there is nothing about having aspergers that ensures logical thinking.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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Silvervarg
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Posts: 773
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Tuttle wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. |
Asperger's is far more than "being logical". In fact, I'd argue that being logical isn't even part of having Asperger's. |
Please elaborate because I've studied my fellow men and psycology on the universety and the only conclusion I have so far is that NTs are not logical, I am. |
I was not aware pride(not the positive kind)and logic went hand in hand, I personally would have to agree that it is not very logical to argue you're more logical than all NTs...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic just as there is nothing about having aspergers that ensures logical thinking |
Not what I was refering to (althou I agree I didn't make this very clear), I'm talking about behaving logicly.
Atleast to me the habbit of performing negative actions, reflect over said actions, agree they are not benifitial and should be altered, and then not do it for the reason that someone els think it should be as it is, is not logical.
And general statements are not exact data that are implementable to everyone everywhere, that's why they are general a.i not specific. These statements can be recognized by their lack of specifications.
| Quote: | | ...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic... |
Yes there is (as long as we're talking about a logical outcome), it's called mob mentality (or group thinking if you're inclined of polishing up the word) and I doubt anyone here is unfamiliar with what it can and will do.
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Am I the only one thinking the Mods should identify themselves as such before they start banning people?
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Res ad triarios venit. |
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aghogday
KATiE MiA
Joined: Nov 26, 2010
Posts: 4745
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvervarg wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Tuttle wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. |
Asperger's is far more than "being logical". In fact, I'd argue that being logical isn't even part of having Asperger's. |
Please elaborate because I've studied my fellow men and psycology on the universety and the only conclusion I have so far is that NTs are not logical, I am. |
I was not aware pride(not the positive kind)and logic went hand in hand, I personally would have to agree that it is not very logical to argue you're more logical than all NTs...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic just as there is nothing about having aspergers that ensures logical thinking |
Not what I was refering to (althou I agree I didn't make this very clear), I'm talking about behaving logicly.
Atleast to me the habbit of performing negative actions, reflect over said actions, agree they are not benifitial and should be altered, and then not do it for the reason that someone els think it should be as it is, is not logical.
And general statements are not exact data that are implementable to everyone everywhere, that's why they are general a.i not specific. These statements can be recognized by their lack of specifications.
| Quote: | | ...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic... |
Yes there is (as long as we're talking about a logical outcome), it's called mob mentality (or group thinking if you're inclined of polishing up the word) and I doubt anyone here is unfamiliar with what it can and will do. |
The decisions all individuals make in life, and resulting behaviors, are largely determined by emotion. Science indicates that emotion underlies most decisions in life that are referred to as logical ones. Individuals that have problems with emotional processing can be hampered in their decision making process, as it relates to logical outcomes through behavior.
Problems with emotional processing are common in individuals with Aspergers. What may seem like logical behavior to one person with difficulties with emotional processing, may not be perceived as logical by others without emotional processing issues.
Written language can also be impacted through these emotional processing difficulties, in that metaphor is at times neither understood well or expressed well.
Metaphor is at the core of all human language, in providing full communication to others, as well as receiving full communication intent. It can be in part, dependent on emotional processing.
What can be extremely perplexing to some, is that some of those whom have these inherent difficulties, often have an extremely hard time in understanding that they have even have these inherent difficulties, because there is no reference point for their emotional processing difficulties and resulting logical outcomes, beyond their world view. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvervarg wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: |
I was not aware pride(not the positive kind)and logic went hand in hand, I personally would have to agree that it is not very logical to argue you're more logical than all NTs...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic just as there is nothing about having aspergers that ensures logical thinking |
Not what I was refering to (althou I agree I didn't make this very clear), I'm talking about behaving logicly.
Atleast to me the habbit of performing negative actions, reflect over said actions, agree they are not benifitial and should be altered, and then not do it for the reason that someone els think it should be as it is, is not logical.
And general statements are not exact data that are implementable to everyone everywhere, that's why they are general a.i not specific. These statements can be recognized by their lack of specifications.
I don't know about that....just because you might behave logically does not mean everyone with AS does....nor that it's some super human ability. There are neurotypicals who behave logically as well.
| Quote: | | ...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic... |
Yes there is (as long as we're talking about a logical outcome), it's called mob mentality (or group thinking if you're inclined of polishing up the word) and I doubt anyone here is unfamiliar with what it can and will do. |
Having AS/Autism does not make one incapable of following mob mentality or group thinking.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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Silvervarg
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Posts: 773
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| aghogday wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Tuttle wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. |
Asperger's is far more than "being logical". In fact, I'd argue that being logical isn't even part of having Asperger's. |
Please elaborate because I've studied my fellow men and psycology on the universety and the only conclusion I have so far is that NTs are not logical, I am. |
I was not aware pride(not the positive kind)and logic went hand in hand, I personally would have to agree that it is not very logical to argue you're more logical than all NTs...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic just as there is nothing about having aspergers that ensures logical thinking |
Not what I was refering to (althou I agree I didn't make this very clear), I'm talking about behaving logicly.
Atleast to me the habbit of performing negative actions, reflect over said actions, agree they are not benifitial and should be altered, and then not do it for the reason that someone els think it should be as it is, is not logical.
And general statements are not exact data that are implementable to everyone everywhere, that's why they are general a.i not specific. These statements can be recognized by their lack of specifications.
| Quote: | | ...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic... |
Yes there is (as long as we're talking about a logical outcome), it's called mob mentality (or group thinking if you're inclined of polishing up the word) and I doubt anyone here is unfamiliar with what it can and will do. |
The decisions all individuals make in life, and resulting behaviors, are largely determined by emotion. Science indicates that emotion underlies most decisions in life that are referred to as logical ones. Individuals that have problems with emotional processing can be hampered in their decision making process, as it relates to logical outcomes through behavior. |
Unless you're trying to say that basing your desicions on emotions are logical, I don't see you point. Since I tend to lack emotions I can safly say I go for the logical approach in most cases, and those cases when emotions do pop up and I look back I realise that my judgement failed me miserably even though it seemed like the best course at the time. There for I do not belive (and no observation contests this) in that people that accually tries to use their emotions as valid arguments ends up making rational decisions.
| Quote: | | Problems with emotional processing are common in individuals with Aspergers. What may seem like logical behavior to one person with difficulties with emotional processing, may not be perceived as logical by others without emotional processing issues. |
So please enlighten me on how it comes that every single time I question an emotional desicion it ends with the person admitting it was not an act that had a firm base, whilst if being questioned I can tell exactly how I came to the conclusion and the person admits that my reasoning and thus the act is valid?
| Quote: | Written language can also be impacted through these emotional processing difficulties, in that metaphor is at times neither understood well or expressed well.
Metaphor is at the core of all human language, in providing full communication to others, as well as receiving full communication intent. It can be in part, dependent on emotional processing. |
Yes thank you, I use metaphores often and have a great success rate, I do appritiate you're telling me this out of the blue.
| Quote: | | What can be extremely perplexing to some, is that some of those whom have these inherent difficulties, often have an extremely hard time in understanding that they have even have these inherent difficulties, because there is no reference point for their emotional processing difficulties and resulting logical outcomes, beyond their world view. |
You're saying that because someone has decided I have difficulties I cannot trust my own judgment because it's flawed...? sh**, I hope he never met himself...
I'd like you to read about Solomon Aschs conformity studies and repeat that statement.
| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | And general statements are not exact data that are implementable to everyone everywhere, that's why they are general a.i not specific. These statements can be recognized by their lack of specifications. |
I don't know about that....just because you might behave logically does not mean everyone with AS does....nor that it's some super human ability. There are neurotypicals who behave logically as well. |
You too, Solomon Asch, and Millgram aswell.
And when did acting logicly become a super human ability...?
| Quote: | | Having AS/Autism does not make one incapable of following mob mentality or group thinking. |
I never said it did, but since one of the criteria for autism or related is a decrease in interest in social interaction (as far as I know), it's less likely a spectrumite sucumbs to these feelings since they do not relate to the group or its needs. Logical conclusion.
_________________
Am I the only one thinking the Mods should identify themselves as such before they start banning people?
Amicus Triarius.
Res ad triarios venit. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvervarg wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: |
I don't know about that....just because you might behave logically does not mean everyone with AS does....nor that it's some super human ability. There are neurotypicals who behave logically as well. |
You too, Solomon Asch, and Millgram aswell.
And when did acting logicly become a super human ability...?
Never said it was...I was saying it wasn't
| Quote: | | Having AS/Autism does not make one incapable of following mob mentality or group thinking. |
I never said it did, but since one of the criteria for autism or related is a decrease in interest in social interaction (as far as I know), it's less likely a spectrumite sucumbs to these feelings since they do not relate to the group or its needs. Logical conclusion. |
Its not nessisarly a decrease in intrest in social interaction, its difficulties with social interaction....so many of us still desire social interaction but our difficulties with social interaction interfere. Also having an intrest in social interaction does not indicate one follows mob mentality.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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aghogday
KATiE MiA
Joined: Nov 26, 2010
Posts: 4745
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Silvervarg wrote: | | aghogday wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Tuttle wrote: | | Silvervarg wrote: | | Ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. |
Asperger's is far more than "being logical". In fact, I'd argue that being logical isn't even part of having Asperger's. |
Please elaborate because I've studied my fellow men and psycology on the universety and the only conclusion I have so far is that NTs are not logical, I am. |
I was not aware pride(not the positive kind)and logic went hand in hand, I personally would have to agree that it is not very logical to argue you're more logical than all NTs...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic just as there is nothing about having aspergers that ensures logical thinking |
Not what I was refering to (althou I agree I didn't make this very clear), I'm talking about behaving logicly.
Atleast to me the habbit of performing negative actions, reflect over said actions, agree they are not benifitial and should be altered, and then not do it for the reason that someone els think it should be as it is, is not logical.
And general statements are not exact data that are implementable to everyone everywhere, that's why they are general a.i not specific. These statements can be recognized by their lack of specifications.
| Quote: | | ...there is nothing about being neurotypical that prevent's logic... |
Yes there is (as long as we're talking about a logical outcome), it's called mob mentality (or group thinking if you're inclined of polishing up the word) and I doubt anyone here is unfamiliar with what it can and will do. |
The decisions all individuals make in life, and resulting behaviors, are largely determined by emotion. Science indicates that emotion underlies most decisions in life that are referred to as logical ones. Individuals that have problems with emotional processing can be hampered in their decision making process, as it relates to logical outcomes through behavior. |
Unless you're trying to say that basing your desicions on emotions are logical, I don't see you point. Since I tend to lack emotions I can safly say I go for the logical approach in most cases, and those cases when emotions do pop up and I look back I realise that my judgement failed me miserably even though it seemed like the best course at the time. There for I do not belive (and no observation contests this) in that people that accually tries to use their emotions as valid arguments ends up making rational decisions.
| Quote: | | Problems with emotional processing are common in individuals with Aspergers. What may seem like logical behavior to one person with difficulties with emotional processing, may not be perceived as logical by others without emotional processing issues. |
So please enlighten me on how it comes that every single time I question an emotional desicion it ends with the person admitting it was not an act that had a firm base, whilst if being questioned I can tell exactly how I came to the conclusion and the person admits that my reasoning and thus the act is valid?
| Quote: | Written language can also be impacted through these emotional processing difficulties, in that metaphor is at times neither understood well or expressed well.
Metaphor is at the core of all human language, in providing full communication to others, as well as receiving full communication intent. It can be in part, dependent on emotional processing. |
Yes thank you, I use metaphores often and have a great success rate, I do appritiate you're telling me this out of the blue.
| Quote: | | What can be extremely perplexing to some, is that some of those whom have these inherent difficulties, often have an extremely hard time in understanding that they have even have these inherent difficulties, because there is no reference point for their emotional processing difficulties and resulting logical outcomes, beyond their world view. |
You're saying that because someone has decided I have difficulties I cannot trust my own judgment because it's flawed...? sh**, I hope he never met himself...
I'd like you to read about Solomon Aschs conformity studies and repeat that statement. |
While you may not experience many of these difficulties they are evidenced in others on the Autism Spectrum.
As far as emotions go all individuals are subject to it in their decision making process whether the influence is shallow internal emotions or strong external emotions. Those individuals evidenced as losing their ability for emotion, through traumatic brain injury cannnot even make decisions as simple as choosing what color sock to wear..
Emotions cannot be used as arguments they are feelings not words, they underly what motivates the decision making process and influence whatever logic/rationality is intended and perceived from the decision making process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotions_in_decision-making
| Quote: | | Ohh how I love the fact that being logical is considered a disablility, it's truly an NT world. |
To what degree does emotion influence decision making in this original statement?
Per logical analysis, there is no scientific evidence anywhere that individuals on the Autism Spectrum as a whole have an inherent advantage over individuals outside of the diagnosis, per their ability to make logical decisions that result in rational behaviors in life.
Furthermore there is no clear definition of what "NT" even means, other than non-autistic. While the world is evidenced to comprise close to 99% of non diagnosed autistics, there is no commonly understood definition for typical neurology, not even within the science of neurology. The closest description in neuroscience is an unremarkable MRI. The differences in neurology that separate autistics from non-autistics is not even well understood.
And finally, autistic traits are evidenced in up to 30% of the population in studies done both in the US and Sweden. So, the neurotypical individual that a person whom considers themself as neuro-atypical, may think they are looking at in close to 1 out of 3 people they meet in life, may have similiar neurology, that can neither be identified in science, or necessarily identified in overt behavior.
In conversations on this site, rarely is NT used as a non-emotional term. For the most part it is used as a pejorative, which at it's base is a descriptor for a term used for emotional intent, rather than logical analysis of an issue.
It's not unusual at all though, because everyone is ruled by their decision making process and resulting behaviors, to different degrees through their emotions, either internal and/or external; autistics are not exempt. Only those that have traumatic brain injury are evidenced as being exempt, and also evidenced as being disabled in their decision making process, and resulting behaviors.
Even psychopaths have a range of internal emotions that consist of emotions such as pleasure, irritibility, and anger, with extremely shallow pro-social external emotions that may appear as non-existent such as remorse and guilt. They too are ruled by internal emotions in the decision making process, and behaviors that result from those decisions.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-justice-and-responsibility-league/201011/how-managerial-psychopaths-use-emotions-manipulate |
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Tuttle
Not a bird, a turtle.
Joined: Mar 27, 2006
Age: 24
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Location: Massachusetts
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