Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| godoftruemercy wrote: | | Also: ever heard of church bells? Those mothers are loud as all get out twelve times a day. But those are white people ringing them, so I guess you don't care. |
This is a very good point, and it hints at the core issue. Western societies cannot reject Islam unless they also reject Christianity.
There is only one good reason to criticise Islam. Its central claims are not true. The methods that we can use to argue against the central claims of Islam being true are the very same methods that we can use to argue against the central claims of Christianity being true.
If you try to criticise Islam in some other way, it won't work. If you say, "Islam causes you do to bad things!" the Muslims will just say, "The omnibenevolent creator of the universe has commanded us to do those things, so they can't be bad!" If you say, "You shouldn't take the Koran literally!" the Muslims will just say, "Of course we should! God wrote it!"
If Western societies insist that Christianity is the backbone of Western culture, then they have no moral highground from which they can dismiss Islam as medieval nonsense. Remember, the most prominent Western figures who advocate the tolerance of Islam are the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury. The most prominent Western figures who advocate the rejection and ridicule of Islam are the New Atheists.
Last edited by Declension on Tue May 08, 2012 8:11 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | I should also point out that Western societies cannot reject Islam unless they also reject Christianity. |
I'd be quite happy to. Make it perfectly legal to be a Muslim, or a Christian, or a Jew... but leave everyone else out of it please. Treat it like masturbation - something to do in the privacy of your home without other people watching you. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3315
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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As an atheist, I do not decry Islam any more than any other religion. However, I *will* sharpen my little picking bone further when it comes to * extremest* Muslims, much like I will with extremest christians.
_________________
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We'll not rest until the purge is complete
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | As an atheist, I do not decry Islam any more than any other religion. However, I *will* sharpen my little picking bone further when it comes to * extremest* Muslims, much like I will with extremest christians. |
Put it this way - extremist Muslims are a much bigger nuisance to us than extremist Christians at this moment in time. Europe has spent centuries trying to detox itself from the scourge of extreme Christianity and we still haven't quite managed it yet.
Though I take your point that, in the U.S., that they can be an irritant as well. At least they - mostly - don't try to bomb (hello Echelon!) people into submission though. |
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godoftruemercy
Toucan
Joined: Sep 20, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| HisDivineMajesty wrote: | | godoftruemercy wrote: | | Listen, buster. Here's your privilege: I'm willing to bet nobody has ever said dubious white money. Because it's only dubious if it's brown people, right? |
There is dubious white money, of course. But this money originated in shady tax constructs in Dubai. There have also been imams, islamic preachers, trying to recruit jihad fighters, preaching strict religion and complete disrespect for non-islamic societies with Saudi subsidies.
| godoftruemercy wrote: | | Also: ever heard of church bells? Those mothers are loud as all get out twelve times a day. But those are white people ringing them, so I guess you don't care. |
There are two churches I can see from my bedroom window, as I live in one of the 'white enclave' towns in our main metropolitan area. In Rotterdam, over half the population is non-European. That number rises to 80-90% in some neighbourhoods. I can hardly hear church bells, but when I'm in The Hague, I can hear their prayer calls. I've talked to someone who lived next to a mosque, and he moved out because he was awoken by shouts.
What I should mention, though, is that I know plenty of North Americans outside this forum who tend to take moral high ground and say we should be tolerant. How much of your population is muslim? Over here, it's one in twenty people, and expected to rise rapidly over the next twenty years. In my region, it's well over 10% of the population, and they're not the most tolerant people. It should not come as a surprise that Wilders and Fortuyn are adored here.
Interestingly, Dutch people are moving away from the country in large numbers. It's very grim here now.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Islam_in_Netherlands.jpg |
Thank you for clarifying that phrase and further explaining your situation to me. I have friends in the Netherlands who have expressed similar concerns. My point of contention was with certain generalizations being made, but I can understand perfectly being overwhelmed by sudden social change. Our relatively new Hispanic influx is shaking things up considerably. However, the solution is never anti-immigrant bigotry, something my Latino (and Muslim) friends struggle with regularly now.
Also, church bells are my biggest autism sensory hate, so I may have been overestimating their irritating-ness. Hate those things. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3315
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | As an atheist, I do not decry Islam any more than any other religion. However, I *will* sharpen my little picking bone further when it comes to * extremest* Muslims, much like I will with extremest christians. |
Put it this way - extremist Muslims are a much bigger nuisance to us than extremist Christians at this moment in time. Europe has spent centuries trying to detox itself from the scourge of extreme Christianity and we still haven't quite managed it yet.
Though I take your point that, in the U.S., that they can be an irritant as well. At least they - mostly - don't try to bomb (hello Echelon!) people into submission though. |
Granted. The area I am is highly conservative and most christian, so I deal with the bible thumpers far more often.
_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
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We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
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HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, islamic schools - another controversial subject. They're funded by our generous government. There are reports of them teaching homosexuality is wrong, spending time analysing the Qur'an, forcing women to wear headscarves, assisting in forced marriage, and producing the worst overall results of all schools.
I'm not a big fan of christianity either, but it's a lot better than islam. Christianity, for one, is not embedded here in a culture that allows domestic violence, imprisonment of women, circumcision of females, violence against young boys who are forced to spend hours a day on the streets, racism towards any non-Arab or non-Maghreb people regardless of religion, and tolerates violent and drug-related crime. If you've spent enough time in Europe, you should know it's a large problem here.
Compared to the things we're forced to tolerate in our own back garden (yeah - one of them destroyed part of my fence, and another threw things at my windows, not to mention how they've insulted and threatened my mother) to not look racist, the worst christian fundamentalists we have here are saints. |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | Treat it like masturbation - something to do in the privacy of your home without other people watching you. |
Doesn't work. Religion, when taken seriously, is not a private matter. Religion is a set of claims about the most important topics conceivable. There is literally nothing more important than the ultimate purpose of human existence.
We acknowledge that political views are not merely a private matter. They affect how we behave, how we vote, the sort of society we want to build. For that reason, we see the importance of having public debates about the validity of political views, since they are so important. In fact, there are some political views that are so dangerous that they are considered unacceptable to hold. Well, religion is even more important than that! |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| So what's the answer then? |
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godoftruemercy
Toucan
Joined: Sep 20, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| HisDivineMajesty wrote: | Ah, islamic schools - another controversial subject. They're funded by our generous government. There are reports of them teaching homosexuality is wrong, spending time analysing the Qur'an, forcing women to wear headscarves, assisting in forced marriage, and producing the worst overall results of all schools.
I'm not a big fan of christianity either, but it's a lot better than islam. Christianity, for one, is not embedded here in a culture that allows domestic violence, imprisonment of women, circumcision of females, violence against young boys who are forced to spend hours a day on the streets, racism towards any non-Arab or non-Maghreb people regardless of religion, and tolerates violent and drug-related crime. If you've spent enough time in Europe, you should know it's a large problem here.
Compared to the things we're forced to tolerate in our own back garden (yeah - one of them destroyed part of my fence, and another threw things at my windows, not to mention how they've insulted and threatened my mother) to not look racist, the worst christian fundamentalists we have here are saints. |
I think we've discovered the root of the disagreement. Our worst Christian fundies are stockpiling guns to help Jesus kill the nonbelievers after the apocalypse. Also, google the "Quiverfull" movement. I guarantee you'll be horrified. |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | So what's the answer then? |
We try to convince each other that our own religious beliefs are correct and that theirs are incorrect, using logical arguments. We do not allow anybody to begin any sentence with "As a Christian..." or "As a Muslim...". We make religion a domain of truth, and not a domain of identity politics. When a religious person makes a religious claim, we take it completely seriously and ask them how they know that it is true. We do not view religions as a wonderful expression of human culture, but as a list of claims which are either true or false. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | We try to convince each other that our own religious beliefs are correct and that theirs are incorrect, using logical arguments. We do not allow anybody to begin any sentence with "As a Christian..." or "As a Muslim...". We make religion a domain of truth, and not a domain of identity politics. When a religious person makes a religious claim, we take it completely seriously and ask them how they know that it is true. We do not view religions as a wonderful expression of human culture, but as a list of claims which are either true or false. |
The problem with that is that many religious people are beyond any and all reason. How do you hope to deal with that? |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | The problem with that is that many religious people are beyond any and all reason. How do you hope to deal with that? |
The same way we deal with it in any other domain of discourse. We laugh at them. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3315
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yeesh, if that's what we should then I am years ahead of the bell curve.
Go me.
_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
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Burzum
Indeed
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1205
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| godoftruemercy wrote: |
I think we can all agree on that. However, immigration policy is not what I'm talking about. My issue is with the racist shi*t being said on this thread. I know ethnic groups are handy-dandy scapegoats, but you can't make broad, sweeping "OMG, Pakistanis do all the bad things!" statements. That is textbook, undeniable racism. My point was that all the racist stuff that was said about y'all was not true, and neither are the things stated on this thread. |
I, being ethnically Irish, couldn't give a toss if an Englishman or what have you claimed the Irish are stupid and uncultured, and I certainly wouldn't use it as an excuse for antisocial behaviour.
I, being a white person, couldn't give a toss if someone pointed out that east-Asians score about 5 IQ points higher on average than whites, and I certainly wouldn't use it as an excuse to be a criminal. |
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