HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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At one point, during a debate, Pim Fortuyn made clear to an islamic scholar that he was a homosexual. Apparently, the islamic scholar was very angry, and started a tirade, after which Fortuyn calmly looked at the camera and said "this is what I mean." It's very unfortunate he was murdered 'for targeting islam and for targeting the weak in society'.
Last year, in a small city, people were outraged. Moroccans had been terrorizing the neighbourhood, forcing people out of their homes and having riots. Local politicians finally agreed - in a few months, two cameras would be placed. After that, people said they'd rather form militias than trust the police anymore. On the internet, the idea was met with praise, and a lot of people sympathizing with the locals' intention to fight back. This is the price you pay for ignoring things perceived as extreme problems by locals. The only thing we can do is free ourselves from the European Union and decide with a large majority on sensible policies to keep immigration and cultural clashes under control. |
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DC
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 16, 2011
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| godoftruemercy wrote: |
Thank you for clarifying that phrase and further explaining your situation to me. I have friends in the Netherlands who have expressed similar concerns. My point of contention was with certain generalizations being made, but I can understand perfectly being overwhelmed by sudden social change. Our relatively new Hispanic influx is shaking things up considerably. However, the solution is never anti-immigrant bigotry, something my Latino (and Muslim) friends struggle with regularly now.
Also, church bells are my biggest autism sensory hate, so I may have been overestimating their irritating-ness. Hate those things. |
Why is it that in preaching the gospel of cultural understanding north Americans can never accept that Europe is a very different place to north America?
Let us try this slowly, for those who have never studied any history outside of their own countries and with no understanding politics outside of their own country.
12 months ago the arab spring happened.
What was the American response?
f**k yeah! Freedom and Democracy baby! USA Number one!
What was the Israeli response?
sh**, now we have another Iran in the making, better spend more on defence.
One year later, islamists are in control of Egypt and 100,000 coptic christians have fled the country because they are murdered and burned out of their homes and churches. Mullahs on state controlled television are advocating war with Israel and the extermination of all zionist pigs. Ooops, USA not so clever... You do not have miracle answers for the world.
Now let me explain the situation in Europe. You think Europe is an old bastion of democracy and liberal values? Well you are wrong.
Within living memory half of the countries in Europe were part of the Soviet Union until 1992, many of the rest were monarchies and military dictatorships.
Greece only stopped being a dictatorship in 1974.
Spain in 1982.
Portugal 1974.
After WWII Italy basically went from being a fascist dictatorship to a mafia controlled kleptocracy and still is.
The last time Europe engaged in ethnic cleansing was 1995, surprised? Go google the Srebrenica massacre.
Shocked? Didn't realise that the majority of Europe had been democracies for less than a single generation?
Now after 10-15 years of totally open door immigration policy, 5 years of austerity and some small parts of Europe having 75% unemployment do you think the very, very angry populations of Europe are more likely to go for group hugs for all humanity or start looking for people to direct their fury at? What about after 10 years of austerity and 20 years of open door immigration?
You do realise that some national governments in Europe have had to form coalition governments with fascist parties to get into power?
By the way I don't mean fascist as in hardline republican the way Americans use the term I mean fascist as black shirt, polished boot & swastika wearing fascists that do nazi-salutes.
Try and imagine George Bush republicans in a coalition government with 20% of the senate & congress being the KKK and they turn up to vote wearing their robes and hoods. That is the actual situation in Hungary right now.
Despite your grand lecturing I bet you had never even heard of Jobbik. I bet you didn't actually have a clue about some of the harsh, unpleasant truths to do with Europe that I have just mentioned. |
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godoftruemercy
Toucan
Joined: Sep 20, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 296
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Despite your grand lecturing I bet you had never even heard of Jobbik. I bet you didn't actually have a clue about some of the harsh, unpleasant truths to do with Europe that I have just mentioned. |
OMG I hate debating on autism boards. Racist stuff was being said. I have recently had to console a Muslim friend who was called a "sand n-word" at a gas station because she was wearing a headscarf. I had to listen to her cry "Why do they hate us?" very very recently. So when I saw bigotry, I jumped in. I'll admit, I wasn't using a very productive tone, probably due to my emotional involvement. Even though I still disagree with the OP, I feel like I understand where they are coming from better. Good discussion in my book.
However, I have been called ignorant multiple times on this thread. If I didn't know what I was talking about, maybe that would be right. But I know sociology, I know anthropology, and I am currently writing my senior thesis on citizenship and privilege, which is what I've been talking about. I'm not talking about immigration law or any of the other off-topic things people brought up. I'm not even sure what the point of listing a bunch of stuff everyone already knew was. My point is: resorting to ad hominem attacks only prove I've put you on the defensive, so please stop.
BTW, we in America have watched Europe's new flirtation with fascism with absolute horror. |
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enrico_dandolo
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 21, 2011
Posts: 866
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Something I find quite strange is that the choices are:
a) allow immigration, and have Muslims beat their wifes "here", with whichever definition of "here";
b) don't, and have Muslims beat their wifes "over there", wherever that might be.
I don't really see the difference. Is something bad when you see it, and fine when you don't? Will they not beat less their wife if they live in a free, economically advanced society like our Western ones? or in the worst case, won't their children be more like "us" "here" than "over there"?
(I live in Canada,btw. I would allow immigration without limits, even pay for transport if necessary, because I don't see how it is fair that we, the Western lucky few, have such good life conditions while many, elsewhere, live in an over-populated metaphorical hell -- and I don't see foreign aid as really helping anything.) |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26045
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DC wrote: | | Despite your grand lecturing I bet you had never even heard of Jobbik. I bet you didn't actually have a clue about some of the harsh, unpleasant truths to do with Europe that I have just mentioned. |
This is true. In Hungary, Jobbik is the third-largest party. These are deeply unpleasant people. In the Netherlands, the PVV is the third-largest party and was part of the coalition government until a few weeks ago - they want to make the Quran illegal to sell in the Netherlands, to close down all Muslim schools and to expel entire families of Muslim immigrants. Then you've got the likes of Lega Nord in Italy, with their quite racist stance on things and their bigoted statements. Not forgetting the popularity of the National Front in France or Vlaams Belang in Belgium and, yes, the surge in support of both the far-left and far-right in Greece. These aren't just fairly cuddly civic nationalist liberal types like UKIP - some of these are aggressively nationalistic parties with links to violence and hatred of ethnic minority groups. This is all happening because the EU - with the helping of national governments - has essentially denied the peoples of Europe a voice. There is no real democracy in the EU, and voting for our main political parties changes nothing, so people have started looking at other options in many EU countries.
| Quote: | | (I live in Canada,btw. I would allow immigration without limits, even pay for transport if necessary, because I don't see how it is fair that we, the Western lucky few, have such good life conditions while many, elsewhere, live in an over-populated metaphorical hell -- and I don't see foreign aid as really helping anything.) |
So you'd be quite happy to see your larger cities end up looking like African countries' capitals? Because that's what will happen with unlimited immigration with a welfare state and a lax police force. All that will happen under your proposals is the natives voting en-masse for the far-right. Great if that's what you want.
You should check out some large European cities like Malmö, Paris or Amsterdam - then times that by ten.
Last edited by Tequila on Tue May 08, 2012 11:12 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| enrico_dandolo wrote: | | I don't really see the difference. Is something bad when you see it, and fine when you don't? Will they not beat less their wife if they live in a free, economically advanced society like our Western ones? or in the worst case, won't their children be more like "us" "here" than "over there"? |
I think that I can explain the logic (although I don't necessarily buy into it).
The logic is: the modern West is the best state of affairs that humanity has so far devised. Never before have so many people lived in such comfort and wealth, had so much intellectual and personal freedom, and made so much progress in the sciences and humanities. No matter what happens, we need to preserve the West from internal corruption. If the West becomes more barbaric, then we are going backwards. As long as the West remains as it is, it can serve as a model for other parts of the world to copy.
So, by this logic, it is better for them to beat their wives "over there". That way, it will not have a chance of becoming normalised in the West.
However, as I said, I don't really buy this logic. The problem is that the world is very interconnected, and the "West and the Rest" model doesn't really do it justice.
Another problem with this logic is that modern liberal society faces internal threats as well as external ones. The barbarians aren't "at the gates"; some of them are already inside the gates. And many of the most dangerous barbarians are not Muslims, but are in fact self-proclaimed anti-Muslim crusaders who claim to want to defend the West, and are willing to throw away Western freedoms in order to do so. |
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enrico_dandolo
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 21, 2011
Posts: 866
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | So you'd be quite happy to see your larger cities end up looking like African countries' capitals? Because that's what will happen with unlimited immigration with a welfare state and a lax police force. All that will happen under your proposals is the natives voting en-masse for the far-right. Great if that's what you want.
You should check out some large European cities like Malmö, Paris or Amsterdam - then times that by ten. |
I don't know if I would be happy. Possibly not. But they will be happy by a larger margin than I will be unhappy. They are people, like I. (Btw, I live in Montréal, and per Wikpedia, it is already more populous than
| Declension wrote: | | enrico_dandolo wrote: | | I don't really see the difference. Is something bad when you see it, and fine when you don't? Will they not beat less their wife if they live in a free, economically advanced society like our Western ones? or in the worst case, won't their children be more like "us" "here" than "over there"? |
I think that I can explain the logic (although I don't necessarily buy into it).
The logic is: the modern West is the best state of affairs that humanity has so far devised. Never before have so many people lived in such comfort and wealth, had so much intellectual freedom, and made so much progress in the sciences and humanities. No matter what happens, we need to preserve the West from internal corruption. If the West becomes more barbaric, then we are going backwards. As long as the West remains as it is, it can serve as a model for other parts of the world to copy.
So, by this logic, it is better for them to beat their wives "over there". That way, it will not have a chance of becoming normalised in the West.
However, as I said, I don't really buy this logic. The problem is that the world is very interconnected, and the "West and the Rest" model doesn't really do it justice. |
The point is, if they are "here", they will probably adopt many of our cultural habits (and we theirs, but the good ones, in a synthetic process). In any case, I think the subordination of women in Muslim countries is a passing problem, and that what see now is more a reactive change to new realities than what has always been and always will be. The place of women in society is best encouraged by economic development and its subsidiary consequences (mainly on healthcare), not by crusading and hatred.
I agree completely about the last sentence, also. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26045
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| enrico_dandolo wrote: | | I don't know if I would be happy. Possibly not. But they will be happy by a larger margin than I will be unhappy. They are people, like I. |
True, they are people. But the self-preservation instinct must kick in. You look after yourself, and your own family, before thinking of others. It's what keeps us alive.
You wouldn't let all the criminals out of jail because they are people, and people must be free, would you? |
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Burzum
Indeed
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1205
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| godoftruemercy wrote: |
However, I have been called ignorant multiple times on this thread. If I didn't know what I was talking about, maybe that would be right. But I know sociology, I know anthropology, and I am currently writing my senior thesis on citizenship and privilege, which is what I've been talking about. |
I have a question, then: Are border collies more privileged than pit bulls? Do border collies need to "check their privilege"? |
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enrico_dandolo
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 21, 2011
Posts: 866
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | You wouldn't let all the criminals out of jail because they are people, and people must be free, would you? |
No, but I wouldn't put people in prison because they were born on the wrong side of the ocean, or on the other side of an arbitrary line.
I'm not saying my beliefs are practical in the short term. I just think they are ethical and right. |
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DC
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 16, 2011
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| godoftruemercy wrote: | | Quote: | | Despite your grand lecturing I bet you had never even heard of Jobbik. I bet you didn't actually have a clue about some of the harsh, unpleasant truths to do with Europe that I have just mentioned. |
OMG I hate debating on autism boards. Racist stuff was being said. I have recently had to console a Muslim friend who was called a "sand n-word" at a gas station because she was wearing a headscarf. I had to listen to her cry "Why do they hate us?" very very recently. So when I saw bigotry, I jumped in. I'll admit, I wasn't using a very productive tone, probably due to my emotional involvement. Even though I still disagree with the OP, I feel like I understand where they are coming from better. Good discussion in my book.
However, I have been called ignorant multiple times on this thread. If I didn't know what I was talking about, maybe that would be right. But I know sociology, I know anthropology, and I am currently writing my senior thesis on citizenship and privilege, which is what I've been talking about. I'm not talking about immigration law or any of the other off-topic things people brought up. I'm not even sure what the point of listing a bunch of stuff everyone already knew was. My point is: resorting to ad hominem attacks only prove I've put you on the defensive, so please stop.
BTW, we in America have watched Europe's new flirtation with fascism with absolute horror. |
Please reread exactly what you have written in this post and think about it carefully.
You are correct, you were not using a very productive tone you were aggressive, judgemental and absolutist. If you don't want to take part in heated, aggressive debate then don't take part and certainly don't butt in to a conversation with heated aggressive posts and then complain when you receive the same style of posts back.
Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you are ignorant, which is why people are implying that you are ignorant. Do you really think that a 21 year old with zero life experience, that has never even visited Europe and hasn't finished school is qualified to lecture people about the details of their own countries because she has been to a few sociology lectures? Doesn't that strike you as outrageously arrogant? It really, really should. |
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HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| godoftruemercy wrote: | | I have recently had to console a Muslim friend who was called a "sand n-word" at a gas station because she was wearing a headscarf. I had to listen to her cry "Why do they hate us?" very very recently. |
I'd have Theo van Gogh or Pim Fortuyn answer that, but unfortunately, they were both assassinated in the past ten years - one for insulting 'the prophet', and one for targeting 'islam, the weak in society'. Geert Wilders now needs a small personal army and an armoured car to protect him, and can't stay at the same house for too long, because he receives a lot of death threats, so don't count on an explanation by him either.
| godoftruemercy wrote: | | However, I have been called ignorant multiple times on this thread. If I didn't know what I was talking about, maybe that would be right. But I know sociology, I know anthropology, and I am currently writing my senior thesis on citizenship and privilege, which is what I've been talking about. I'm not talking about immigration law or any of the other off-topic things people brought up. I'm not even sure what the point of listing a bunch of stuff everyone already knew was. My point is: resorting to ad hominem attacks only prove I've put you on the defensive, so please stop. |
| godoftruemercy wrote: | | BTW, we in America have watched Europe's new flirtation with fascism with absolute horror. |
Flirtation with fascism? I'm not all against it - the European Union needs to wake up and look at reality, something they've been bitterly lacking. It would be good for them to stop paying their employees ten thousand a month for doing absolutely nothing but moan about human rights elsewhere and saying we should be friendlier to immigrants while trying to pass legislation aimed at making surveillance of normal citizens here easier. These people are the enemy just as much as, and a bit more for forcing us to facilitate in, large groups of immigrants making life in inner cities living hell. We want to be able to close our borders and regulate our own immigration policies. You see, throughout most of the European Union, people have ideas similar to Switzerland's (taking measures against immigration and foreign cultural dominance), but are forced to have policies welcoming almost all immigrants with open arms.
I love how people from North America and the Pacific are still buying into the idea of immigration. I've discussed this issue with Australians before. Their logic made me cringe. It amounted to "because we receive mostly Indonesians, Chinese people and Europeans, immigration is alright." However, we've received Indonesians and Chinese people, and they're great. However, most of what we received was Moroccan, Turkish, Antillean or from Suriname, and they're not at all similar to those groups. They are, in fact, extremely over-represented in almost all types of crime, stick to their own group, are involved in organised crime very often (my charming Antillean neighbours, for example are secretive drug dealers who have a new car every few months and receive visitors with bags and suitcases for five minutes in the middle of the night), and don't hide their disagreement and resentment toward a culture we hold dear.
Although almost everyone in surrounding houses has complained of cars with loud music stopping in the street at 2 am, someone stepping out, entering their house, then loading bags into their car and speeding off. However, the police isn't authorised to do anything. They put a police van next to the house for a while, but the dealers had a tactic - they simply placed someone on guard who signalled their colleagues when the police van had left. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26045
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| HisDivineMajesty wrote: | | We want to be able to close our borders and regulate our own immigration policies. You see, throughout most of the European Union, people have ideas similar to Switzerland's (taking measures against immigration and foreign cultural dominance), but are forced to have policies welcoming almost all immigrants with open arms. |
I daresay that, if genuine democracy was available in the EU, that Swiss policies would prove very popular. The SVP isn't the largest party in Switzerland for no reason. The Swiss are very outspoken about what they like and dislike, and they don't want mass, unfettered immigration or Islamic dominance any more than we do here in the UK.
Indeed, I favour leaving the EU and for the UK to take on a Swiss-style arrangement. |
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HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | I daresay that, if genuine democracy was available in the EU, that Swiss policies would prove very popular. The SVP isn't the largest party in Switzerland for no reason. The Swiss are very outspoken about what they like and dislike, and they don't want mass, unfettered immigration or Islamic dominance any more than we do here in the UK.
Indeed, I favour leaving the EU and for the UK to take on a Swiss-style arrangement. |
The Swiss are doing alright. They're not tied to extreme restrictions regarding immigration and integration. The government wanted to restrict immigration policies here, one of their most popular moves ever, but the European Union refused to allow that. I'm wondering why we're listening to them, as they've usually been wrong, and they're best at putting their heads in the sand on all issues. They're like some passengers on the Titanic, refusing to believe the ship was sinking even when they saw the bow going under. I hope the situation in Greece deteriorates so much the European Union loses its political credit and we can free ourselves. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | So what's the answer then? |
Take the right to vote away from people who aren't rational, if you believe in an all mighty being, which nobody can see or confirm the existence of, that talks to you, whom you talk to and so on, then that is more or less grounds for being locked up for mental illness. Religion is socially accepted psychosis, simple as that. |
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