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edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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 Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| I think the reason I can't empathize with it (and I obviously can't because it looks like a joke but it's not) is simply because it doesn't make any sense. I recognize the absurdity and counterfactualism as humour at first glance. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12748
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | I saw the same episode, and I just have to ask: is this McNaughton guy for real? He seems like a walking caricature.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I can't understand how it isn't satire. |
It's not satire. The guy is for real.  |
I know, I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of it not being satire. It looks like a joke. |
Have to wonder just how many conservatives have the mindset that comes across as freakishly funny - - but don't even realize it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Speaking of Inuyasha, where is that guy these days |
 I haven't a clue. But it certainly would've been fun to have heard his defense of this McNaughton guy.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1653
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:23 am Post subject: Re: If Liberals are so empathetic... |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | With this and your other interpretations, I think you have a better grasp of morals than the Nazis (not that that's very hard) and you aren't twisting anything. But your interpretations that would disagree with the Nazis aren't that different from my reinterpretations that disagreed with them. They're just rejecting a twisted interpretation of morality. |
There's a difference. The word "fairness" can't really be twisted like the word "loyalty" can. As you have already pointed out, you need to literally lie to people in order to make their "fairness" instinct work for evil purposes. You don't need to lie to people in order to make their "loyalty" instinct work for evil purposes.
If I told people that my interpretation of "fairness" is that "we ought to be fair to people", I don't think that I would raise many eyebrows. If I told people that my interpretation of "loyalty" is that "we ought to be loyal to institutions which encourage fairness", people would look at me funny. That's simply not what "loyalty" means. And that's why I don't think that "loyalty" is a moral word. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12091
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | I saw the same episode, and I just have to ask: is this McNaughton guy for real? He seems like a walking caricature.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I can't understand how it isn't satire. |
It's not satire. The guy is for real. |
I know, I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of it not being satire. It looks like a joke. |
Have to wonder just how many conservatives have the mindset that comes across as freakishly funny - - but don't even realize it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Speaking of Inuyasha, where is that guy these days |
I haven't a clue. But it certainly would've been fun to have heard his defense of this McNaughton guy.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
It would likely be amusing. Though conservative Christians siding with Mormons just goes to show how crayyyyy the world has gotten, since 150 years ago they were considered heretics by the conservative Christian establishments
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12748
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | I saw the same episode, and I just have to ask: is this McNaughton guy for real? He seems like a walking caricature.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I can't understand how it isn't satire. |
It's not satire. The guy is for real. |
I know, I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of it not being satire. It looks like a joke. |
Have to wonder just how many conservatives have the mindset that comes across as freakishly funny - - but don't even realize it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Speaking of Inuyasha, where is that guy these days |
I haven't a clue. But it certainly would've been fun to have heard his defense of this McNaughton guy.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
It would likely be amusing. Though conservative Christians siding with Mormons just goes to show how crayyyyy the world has gotten, since 150 years ago they were considered heretics by the conservative Christian establishments |
As they seem to think Obama is a Godless, socialistic Anti-Christ, they figure Romney is the more Godly choice, Mormon or not.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2388
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:38 am Post subject: Re: If Liberals are so empathetic... |
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| Declension wrote: | | If I told people that my interpretation of "fairness" is that "we ought to be fair to people", I don't think that I would raise many eyebrows. If I told people that my interpretation of "loyalty" is that "we ought to be loyal to institutions which encourage fairness", people would look at me funny. That's simply not what "loyalty" means. And that's why I don't think that "loyalty" is a moral word. |
I'm having trouble seeing where you're going with this. Sure, that's not what loyalty means. So what? Are you saying that any word with moral implications has to tie back to fairness for some reason?
| Vigilans wrote: | | Though conservative Christians siding with Mormons just goes to show how crayyyyy the world has gotten, since 150 years ago they were considered heretics by the conservative Christian establishments |
They still would be considered heretics AFAICT. Why would this be incredibly surprising?
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"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1653
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: Re: If Liberals are so empathetic... |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | I'm having trouble seeing where you're going with this. Sure, that's not what loyalty means. So what? Are you saying that any word with moral implications has to tie back to fairness for some reason? |
My point is: you seem to be saying that many people are loyal to morally sound institutions and people, and their loyalty to these institutions and people is morally beneficial. I agree with this. But that doesn't mean that "loyalty" itself can be considered a moral building block.
Here is another example. Suppose that I point out that many people are members of morally sound institutions, such as charities and non-Nazi churches, and that their membership in these institutions is morally beneficial. Does that mean that "membership" itself can be considered a moral building block? |
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edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| I would say loyalty to anything other than flesh and blood human beings is undesirable. It implies an unwillingness to change, or to accept flawed ideas or institutions in the face of better alternatives. This seems pointless and wasteful. |
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heavenlyabyss
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | heavenlyabyss wrote: | | It goes both ways. |
Not according to the study. Did you bother reading it before commenting? |
Um, this sounds like a subtle attack. I skimmed it because it just seemed silly to me, if you want the truth. |
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Peter_L
Blue Jay
Joined: Jan 06, 2012
Age: 28
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| edgewaters wrote: | | I would say loyalty to anything other than flesh and blood human beings is undesirable. It implies an unwillingness to change, or to accept flawed ideas or institutions in the face of better alternatives. This seems pointless and wasteful. |
Anything humans come up with is going to be imperfect. Existing "flawed" ideas or institutions are a result of long sets of compromises that while nobody is happy with, everybody can live with. Is accepting a compromise agreement pointless and wasteful?
As i'm sure you know, liberal and conservative is a gross oversimplification of politics; there are many groups within both. Most people only join since the core beliefs of that group are the nearest possible to their own and they hope to manipulate the direction the entire political spectrum takes. It's most obvious in the US with the extreme nutters on each wing trying to pull everybody else their way by threatening to leave the wider political party if they don't get their way.
Much of the time, I think your "better" alternatives are what you consider to be "better" based on eliminating every compromise every other group in society wanted in order to be able to live with the institution, which leaves you being the only group satisfied with the result. While you would doubtlessly consider the end result of eliminating any compromise to be "better", I think we need to be able to agree that this a sentiment that would be far from universal. If the idea was genuinely "better" in the definition of "produces a measurably more effective end result for less cost while being fair to all sections of society" then to be honest I don't think there would be any argument over it. |
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edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Peter_L wrote: | | Anything humans come up with is going to be imperfect. Existing "flawed" ideas or institutions are a result of long sets of compromises that while nobody is happy with, everybody can live with. Is accepting a compromise agreement pointless and wasteful? |
No, but that's not loyalty, thats pragmatism. Loyalty dictates that you would remain steadfast in a situation where few were happy with it, few could live with it, and the outcomes were poor. You can't argue for loyalty on a pragmatic basis - that's arguing for pragmatism.
| Quote: | | Much of the time, I think your "better" alternatives are what you consider to be "better" based on eliminating every compromise every other group in society wanted in order to be able to live with the institution, which leaves you being the only group satisfied with the result. |
I find that the groups most likely to exhibit strong loyalty are idealists and generally aren't willing to compromise with any other groups anyway.
| Quote: | | If the idea was genuinely "better" in the definition of "produces a measurably more effective end result for less cost while being fair to all sections of society" then to be honest I don't think there would be any argument over it. |
Then you do not believe in loyalty, you believe in pragmatism. You're willing to make a switch to obtain something, if it is pragmatic to do so. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9187
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| edgewaters wrote: | | I think the reason I can't empathize with it (and I obviously can't because it looks like a joke but it's not) is simply because it doesn't make any sense. I recognize the absurdity and counterfactualism as humour at first glance. |
What can you expect. He's another W. Cleon Skousen cultist. There's references to "The Five Thousand Year Leap" all around his site. |
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ghoti
out of water
Joined: May 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 1302
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | edgewaters wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | I saw the same episode, and I just have to ask: is this McNaughton guy for real? He seems like a walking caricature.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I can't understand how it isn't satire. |
It's not satire. The guy is for real. |
I know, I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of it not being satire. It looks like a joke. |
Have to wonder just how many conservatives have the mindset that comes across as freakishly funny - - but don't even realize it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Speaking of Inuyasha, where is that guy these days |
I haven't a clue. But it certainly would've been fun to have heard his defense of this McNaughton guy.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
It would likely be amusing. Though conservative Christians siding with Mormons just goes to show how crayyyyy the world has gotten, since 150 years ago they were considered heretics by the conservative Christian establishments |
As they seem to think Obama is a Godless, socialistic Anti-Christ, they figure Romney is the more Godly choice, Mormon or not.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Though I have seen some extreme conservatives insist that Obama is Muslim due to his middle mane of Hussein, putting him in an evil category. |
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DW_a_mom
Ignoring the To-Do List
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 9298
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Their arguments are based on things a lot more interesting than his middle name, they actually go into a deep analysis of how faith is supposed to be passed on in the Muslim religion, and then all the reasons they think his claim to be Christian ring hollow. Of course, as a Christian, I can see many ways that thought process goes off course, but if you want to debate it effectively, you have to understand that it is based on much more than a name.
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Mom to an amazing AS boy (plus a non-AS daughter). Have at least a few AS genes myself, although probably more NT than AS.
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DW_a_mom
Ignoring the To-Do List
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 9298
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with loyalty is that it can lead to evil, and to acting against one's own conscious. Loyalty is appropriate when all other things are equal or near equal, but there are points and times one must draw the line. And I can easily think of examples from both the extreme right and the extreme left where the appropriate lines fail to be drawn. Fanaticism and loyalty are often paired up, but that is also when it gets destructive.
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Mom to an amazing AS boy (plus a non-AS daughter). Have at least a few AS genes myself, although probably more NT than AS.
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Think of the greening of my name as an emeritus thing; I used to be a moderator but am retired and have no authority to act |
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