DC
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 16, 2011
Posts: 1477
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | Finally! Some real answers..
I would not say that such an experience recording is proof of god. Certainly it would be proof of something interesting, especially if there was great clarity to the "death" experiences recorded. |
Still playing the hypothetical thought experiments, atheist to christian:
I probably set quite a high bar even as an atheist for my requirements and definition of 'proof', for example I don't believe that seeing is believing because I know that what you think you see isn't 'really real'.
Your eye turns photons into electrical impulses that travel back along the brain and then have to be translated by at least two groups of neurons before they reach the bit of your brain that you would consider as being 'you'.
When you take hallucinogenic drugs these translators get screwed up, when you watch a magician perform magic tricks with sleight of hand he is 'hacking' the translator bits of your brain, instead of your brain reporting to you what your eye is actually seeing, it reports what it thinks should be happening.
With this level of scepticism, do you think that even if god exists, do you think he could ever prove to me that he actually is god, the creator of the universe, omnipotent, omnipresent etc?
If we assume that god refuses to take away my free will, what trick do you think he should perform for me to prove his existence and that isn't just an alien with some tech toys that appear to be magic because the human race is so technologically backward by comparison? |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| DC wrote: | | shrox wrote: | Finally! Some real answers..
I would not say that such an experience recording is proof of god. Certainly it would be proof of something interesting, especially if there was great clarity to the "death" experiences recorded. |
Still playing the hypothetical thought experiments, atheist to christian:
I probably set quite a high bar even as an atheist for my requirements and definition of 'proof', for example I don't believe that seeing is believing because I know that what you think you see isn't 'really real'.
Your eye turns photons into electrical impulses that travel back along the brain and then have to be translated by at least two groups of neurons before they reach the bit of your brain that you would consider as being 'you'.
When you take hallucinogenic drugs these translators get screwed up, when you watch a magician perform magic tricks with sleight of hand he is 'hacking' the translator bits of your brain, instead of your brain reporting to you what your eye is actually seeing, it reports what it thinks should be happening.
With this level of scepticism, do you think that even if god exists, do you think he could ever prove to me that he actually is god, the creator of the universe, omnipotent, omnipresent etc?
If we assume that god refuses to take away my free will, what trick do you think he should perform for me to prove his existence and that isn't just an alien with some tech toys that appear to be magic because the human race is so technologically backward by comparison? |
I think you've read this wrong. I am asking what would you make of the recording if such a machine existed. |
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5378
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Funny thing about NDE: Buddhists see Buddha . Muslims Alha or Mohammed. Christians see Jesus.
Almost as if a brain getting roasted was not the most reliable source of memories.
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14830
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Vexcalibur wrote: | Funny thing about NDE: Buddhists see Buddha . Muslims Alha or Mohammed. Christians see Jesus.
Almost as if a brain getting roasted was not the most reliable source of memories. |
If AWARE or other studies clinch the validity of OOB, things learned on the other side of the tunnel however - I think we'll need to look at the possibility that what we're dealing with is simply beyond the complexity of anything we've dealt with before, the degree of it being both imaginary and real at the same time may be very accurate (to which we may have a very difficult time getting through to what it is behind the 'dream'), and any proper mechanical understanding of it won't be served to us prechewed or blended in a baby bottle.
It does though, in many senses, seem like the people who see hell are no better or worse than the people who see heaven (theists, atheists, all really have both) but its typically a fear of death or final judgment - a bit like their internal optimisms or fears have a lot to do with creating the world they end up in. |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1312
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: What is proof of God? |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | shrox wrote: | What if a death experience like this was recorded? What if several experiences like this could be recorded, showing it repeatable? Would that be "proof of God"?
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Since when is a delusion and an hallucination a proof of anything?
Proof requires either a rigorous logical demonstration or the presentation of a fact beyond any reasonable doubt.
ruveyn |
well said.
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Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1312
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: What is proof of God? |
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| kla2 wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: |
Proof requires either a rigorous logical demonstration or the presentation of a fact beyond any reasonable doubt.
ruveyn |
The mistake you make is to presume that any demonstration of fact must meet 'your' conception of logic. Discovery is very often a path that defies all existing logic, creating it's own new terms, at the same time offering demonstrable proof. Any one unable to empathize with the new discovery is just unwilling to 'raise' their intellectual game, accept correction, test it for themselves and learn something new. Such a mind prefers ignorance and prejudice to knowledge and truth. That same winnowing process is now unfolding with the God question. A repeatable 'rigorous demonstration' of newly discovered Fact is available to anyone with the faith to test it for themselves. With apologizes to Shakespeare: To test or not to test, that is the question? |
ROFLMFAO!!!
You utilize many words that you clearly do not understand. Faith rhetoric with words like intellectual, proof and logic sprinkled on top to disguise the same old message.
FAIL!
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Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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God has so far chosen to avoid letting himself be proven, so the whole idea that the smoking gun, the pudding, the indisputable evidence of existence, would be *this*, seems a little silly to me.
The complete lack of evidence of devine intervention in the universe leads me to chose between two scenarios. One is that there is no god, and the other is that god has designed it like that for some purpose. Perhaps the fairly common Christian idea that god is tallying up true believers is that reason. What do I know. Perhaps everything we know about cosmology and physics and biology is part of his plan or design. Either there is no god, or the creator has decided to hide his influence on the universe we can observe.
Why unveil it like that?
In order to be able to construct a machine like that, one has to assume that a large amount of modern science has to be applied, so if this is how god's existence is to be revealed, I appreciate his sense of irony. |
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ruveyn
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Age: 76
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: What is proof of God? |
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| kla2 wrote: |
The mistake you make is to presume that any demonstration of fact must meet 'your' conception of logic. |
My conception of logic is founded on the law of non-contradiction. Nothing cannot both be and not be at the same time. Virtually all logic of any kind is based on the law of non-contradiction except for paraconsistent logics which have little practival use.
ruveyn |
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Smigiloo
Emu Egg
Joined: Aug 07, 2011
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: |
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I think logical debate of this question is a frivolous matter - for the believer them self and also from the believer to the skeptic. There are two verses which I think lead to this conclusion -
in Hebrews 11
"without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
and in James 1
"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord."
Unfortunately the person in the "convince me of God" mindset is entering an arena where logical proof for validity is void - God denies entry via proofs and lays the cards on the table that you must believe to see rather then vice versa. But believers should understand that (as Kierkegaard has stated) - "Christ uses only one proof: 'If you do my father’s will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.' This implies that an action-situation is necessary before the decision of faith can come into existence; it is a venture. It is not a matter of proof first and then the venture. No, first the venture, then the proof." Utilizing logical proofs in this arena is simply a frustration for all involved - the logic utilized is inherently foolish and automatically invalid to the skeptic, and it is a broken method for the believer.
And for the believer - one must realize that the "Is there a God?" question isn't up for argument where one utilizes the right data to support this or that statement. God doesn't operate in hypothesis for the believer, since the reality of "God IS" precludes the possibility of "God if". No one will ever see anyone prove God's existence/possibility of existence, because God has denied that as the road to belief. With how the Bible lays it out, it's not a matter of convincing/proving minds, but of love in action and changing of hearts. |
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heavenlyabyss
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: |
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The moment that God is proven to exist is the moment that the universe collapses.
God and proof do not belong in the same sentence. |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Smigiloo, what you are saying IS exactly what the skeptics have been saying all along:
There is no proof for the existence of any gods, and the believers have to decide to believe *despite* this.
You realize that this is the exact same situation for believers of every single faith based religion, and they all believe that the story their parents told them is *the* correct one. They can't all be right (and chances are they are ALL wrong), and your certainty that yours is the one seems to me to be a bet with huge stakes. Your life is in the kitty (you provided the "cards" analogy). |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
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Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| heavenlyabyss wrote: | The moment that God is proven to exist is the moment that the universe collapses.
God and proof do not belong in the same sentence. |
That is, in fact, as you know, simply an unsupported opinion. |
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Grebels
Toucan
Joined: Mar 06, 2012
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Unspecified wrote: | Smigiloo, what you are saying IS exactly what the skeptics have been saying all along:
There is no proof for the existence of any gods, and the believers have to decide to believe *despite* this.
You realize that this is the exact same situation for believers of every single faith based religion, and they all believe that the story their parents told them is *the* correct one. They can't all be right (and chances are they are ALL wrong), and your certainty that yours is the one seems to me to be a bet with huge stakes. Your life is in the kitty (you provided the "cards" analogy). |
Unspecified, it seems to me that you and many others here are making wrong assumptions about belief and faith. |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Grebels wrote: | | Unspecified wrote: | Smigiloo, what you are saying IS exactly what the skeptics have been saying all along:
There is no proof for the existence of any gods, and the believers have to decide to believe *despite* this.
You realize that this is the exact same situation for believers of every single faith based religion, and they all believe that the story their parents told them is *the* correct one. They can't all be right (and chances are they are ALL wrong), and your certainty that yours is the one seems to me to be a bet with huge stakes. Your life is in the kitty (you provided the "cards" analogy). |
Unspecified, it seems to me that you and many others here are making wrong assumptions about belief and faith. |
OK, educate me. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
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Age: 76
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Unspecified wrote: | | heavenlyabyss wrote: | The moment that God is proven to exist is the moment that the universe collapses.
God and proof do not belong in the same sentence. |
That is, in fact, as you know, simply an unsupported opinion. |
There is no empirical proof for the existence or non-existence of God. Which why one must believe that God exists. It is impossible to know for sure one way or the other.
ruveyn |
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