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Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next  
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Kraichgauer
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruveyn wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
I agree, and yet I'll vote for him because Romney would be much much worse! I think it's time to start looking for the new breed of politician. :-/ Oh wait, there was one, his name is Kucinich, and he just lost his House seat... This is why politics depresses me so much.


Kuchinich is a closet Progressive. Just another pinko stinko lefty liberal.

ruveyn


You say that like there's something wrong with that. Laughing

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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WilliamWDelaney
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruveyn wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
I agree, and yet I'll vote for him because Romney would be much much worse! I think it's time to start looking for the new breed of politician. :-/ Oh wait, there was one, his name is Kucinich, and he just lost his House seat... This is why politics depresses me so much.


Kuchinich is a closet Progressive. Just another pinko stinko lefty liberal.

ruveyn
You're a loony.
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WilliamWDelaney
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER Reply with quote

Dox47 wrote:
Well, I suppose I'll accept this tacit admission of straw-manning, if only for the novelty.
Uh, no. I answered most of your points with reasonable accuracy, and I proved that you are throwing out any accusation that sounds good to your ears.

The only reason you don't like Obama is that he isn't a pro-gun good ol' boy who goes around touting your own party line. That's the only thing you even look for in a politician. You really are that shallow, whether you will admit it or not. Your claims in the OP were totally bogus, and you aren't even being honest about your motives.

It's not just me saying this. Everyone who has really been paying attention, here, sees this. Nobody is buying your bull crap, dude.

It has been trivially easy to knock down your bull crap claims. I have direct quotes refuting them. You can plug your ears if you want to, but you would be totally out of touch with reality if you believed your own drivel.
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Dox47
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^
If all of my issues with Obama are so transparently false, then why are you so concerned with knocking them down? I mean the attempts have been poor and the accuracy is off, but the intent is clearly there. I do realize that I'm talking to the lowest rung on the Obama reelection campaign ladder here and that you're contractually obligated to defend your man and all, but anyone who cares to read can see how out of touch with reality you are in this thread. You don't even seem to realize/remember that I'm not a Republican, let alone that answering questions that have not been asked is not "debunking".
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Dox47
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER Reply with quote

Since you insist, "debunk" #3

The assertion:
Quote:
Obama tricked transparency advocates into thinking he'd celebrate whistleblowers and set new standards in open government. He has prosecuted whistleblowers as aggressively as any president in history, and presided over a dramatic escalation in what the federal government does in secret.


The response:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
To Lie #3: Barack Obama promised to strengthen whistleblower protection laws, which he has done.

http://www.whistleblowers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1172&Itemid=207

Quote:
The Food Safety Modernization Act (FSMA) will save American lives by protecting the millions of American workers who grow, process, store and deliver our food. Those workers now have modern whistleblower protections when they raise concerns about the safety of our food...


So in your mind, promising to "celebrate whistleblowers and set new standards in open government" translates as: pass a law protecting food handlers from penalties for whistleblowing?
Color me underwhelmed.

I Googled the words "Obama whistleblowers" and the first 10 results were:

www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058340,00.html

change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/

www.salon.com/.../obamas_unprecedented_war_on_whistleblowers/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/07/obama-deportation-whistleblower-workers_n_1497888.html

http://rt.com/usa/news/obama-going-transparent-colapinto/

rt.com/usa/.../scahill-obama-shaye-administration-595/

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/11334-obamas-new-zero-tolerance-of-whistleblowers-betrays-promised-protection

www.guardian.co.uk › Comment is free › Cif America

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/business/media/white-house-uses-espionage-act-to-pursue-leak-cases-media-equation.html

www.counterpunch.org/2011/06/30/obama-s-war-on-whistleblowers/

Aside from the president's own site, change.gov, every single one details Obama's war on whistleblowers, a charge leveled by such dastardly right wing sources as Salon, Huffington Post The New York Times and Counterpunch. I'll excerpt the NYT arcticle for emphasis:

The New York Times wrote:

The Obama administration, which promised during its transition to power that it would enhance “whistle-blower laws to protect federal workers,” has been more prone than any administration in history in trying to silence and prosecute federal workers.

The Espionage Act, enacted back in 1917 to punish those who gave aid to our enemies, was used three times in all the prior administrations to bring cases against government officials accused of providing classified information to the media. It has been used six times since the current president took office.

Setting aside the case of Pfc. Bradley Manning, an Army intelligence analyst who is accused of stealing thousands of secret documents, the majority of the recent prosecutions seem to have everything to do with administrative secrecy and very little to do with national security.

In case after case, the Espionage Act has been deployed as a kind of ad hoc Official Secrets Act, which is not a law that has ever found traction in America, a place where the people’s right to know is viewed as superseding the government’s right to hide its business.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/business/media/white-house-uses-espionage-act-to-pursue-leak-cases-media-equation.html

Who's playing games now?
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Dox47
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER Reply with quote

Just for fun, I'll make this one a double feature and move right along to "debunk" #4

The assertion:
Quote:
Obama tricked executive-power critics into thinking he would roll back the excesses of the Bush Administration. He has transformed those excesses into matters of bipartisan consensus, and gone farther in some respects, as when an American citizen was killed extra-judicially on his order.


The response:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
To Lie #4: Anwar al-Aulaqi was NOT JUST A TERRORIST, but he was the GODFATHER or Yemen's al-Qaeda faction.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/aulaqi-gets-new-designation-in-death/2011/09/30/gIQAsbF69K_blog.html


I don't CARE how terrible the Obama administration says he was, if he was that bad they should have had no problem proving it in open court with standards of evidence and a judge or jury. All you or anyone else has to go on for judging just how bad a guy we collectively blew up is what the government has chosen to tell us; that is a problem. Obama's position has been that they have all this evidence proving how evil this guy is, but it's so secret that they can't tell us about it, or even reveal (officially) that they have any evidence, or even a drone program that everyone nonetheless knows about.

American citizens are being condemned to death and executed by a secret government board using secret information and secret procedures; does none of that worry you even the slightest bit?
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WilliamWDelaney
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dox47 wrote:
^
If all of my issues with Obama are so transparently false, then why are you so concerned with knocking them down?
Because I am part-dog. If you throw a stick, I chase after it. It doesn't mean I think it's edible.
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ruveyn
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
I agree, and yet I'll vote for him because Romney would be much much worse! I think it's time to start looking for the new breed of politician. :-/ Oh wait, there was one, his name is Kucinich, and he just lost his House seat... This is why politics depresses me so much.


Kuchinich is a closet Progressive. Just another pinko stinko lefty liberal.

ruveyn


You say that like there's something wrong with that. Laughing

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I do not want to see the State become All. We should have just enough government to keep order in the society. When governments attempt to do Good, they become tyrannies.

What is the primary paving material for the Road to Hell?

Good Intentions.

ruveyn
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CaptainTrips222
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER Reply with quote

Dox47 wrote:
Finally, someone comes up with the perfect metaphor to describe my major problem with Obama, and with the people who continue to blindly support him, even if his graphic is awful. You just can't trust what the man says, his actions tell a different story every single time.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/lucy-obama-and-his-charlie-brown-progressives/256836/\

Conor Friedersdorf wrote:
'Lucy' Obama and His 'Charlie Brown' Progressives

Check out Chuck Todd, NBC's chief White House correspondent, openly speculating that President Obama is going to embrace same-sex marriage because he needs money from gay people. "Gay money in this election has replaced Wall Street money," he reported. NBC's David Gregory agreed. For some reason, neither man seemed to think this theory reflects poorly on the president.

Then the conventional wisdom shifted. Observers were basing their guesses on the fact that HUD Secretary Shaun Donovan and Vice President Joe Biden had both made statements in support of same-sex marriage. The same-sex-marriage supporters who praised these developments were as quickly dismayed when the White House walked back Biden's statements, insisting that like Obama, Biden's views on the subject were still "evolving," a euphemism that seems to mean they'll favor either marriage equality for gays or discrimination against them depending on their moment-to-moment judgments about what's best for them politically.

Sounds like Mitt Romney's position!

Observing all this, Romney 2012 booster Jennifer Rubin aptly noted, "This is becoming the proverbial Lucy and the football. One wonders how often pro-gay-marriage activists, like poor Charlie Brown, are going to fall for this stuff." But Lucy just had one Charlie Brown. Obama has a whole roster of would-be kickers, and a habit of teeing up the ball only to callously pull it away.

Don't progressives see this?

  • Obama tricked the cannabis community into thinking his Justice Department would go easy on medical marijuana in states where it is legal, broke his promise, then misled voters about his options.

  • Obama tricked anti-war voters into thinking that he wouldn't order American troops into battle unless there was an imminent threat to America or a declaration of war from Congress, then went to war in Libya, violating the War Powers Resolution, even though neither condition was met.

  • Obama tricked transparency advocates into thinking he'd celebrate whistleblowers and set new standards in open government. He has prosecuted whistleblowers as aggressively as any president in history, and presided over a dramatic escalation in what the federal government does in secret.

  • Obama tricked executive-power critics into thinking he would roll back the excesses of the Bush Administration. He has transformed those excesses into matters of bipartisan consensus, and gone farther in some respects, as when an American citizen was killed extra-judicially on his order.

  • Obama tricked immigration-reform advocates into thinking he was a fellow traveler, then upset them with Secure Communities, record-breaking deportation levels, and a failure to improve immigration detention.

  • Obama tricked Iraq War opponents into thinking that he would exit the country by the withdrawal date that George W. Bush negotiated. The Iraqi government wouldn't let him keep troops in the country beyond that date, although he tried to break his promise. Now the Obama Administration pays a small army of private-security contractors to protect America's presence in that country.

  • Obama tricked critics of indefinite detention into thinking that he abhorred the practice, only to sign a bill that institutionalized it.

  • Obama tricked critics of signing statements into thinking he wouldn't issue them. But he's done so on many occasions.

  • Obama tricked critics of the state-secrets privilege into thinking he'd reverse Bush-era uses of the tactic. Instead he's continued it.

This isn't an exhaustive list, but these examples are sufficient to draw a conclusion: Progressives shouldn't trust what Obama says, or what they think he believes. They should judge his actions. It's the only way to distinguish between promises he aims to keep and things he's said to mislead small constituencies into thinking he'll do more for them than is justified by reality.


supporting links are in the original article.

Don't get me wrong, Romney is just as bad if not worse, I just can't believe the blinders some people have on when it comes to Obama.


A lot of lefties are hypocritical that way, especially the 30 and under crowd. They talk about justice, and fairness, and intellectual superiority, and all that good s**t and don't live up to their own ideals.
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Kraichgauer
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
I agree, and yet I'll vote for him because Romney would be much much worse! I think it's time to start looking for the new breed of politician. :-/ Oh wait, there was one, his name is Kucinich, and he just lost his House seat... This is why politics depresses me so much.


Kuchinich is a closet Progressive. Just another pinko stinko lefty liberal.

ruveyn


You say that like there's something wrong with that. Laughing

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I do not want to see the State become All. We should have just enough government to keep order in the society. When governments attempt to do Good, they become tyrannies.

What is the primary paving material for the Road to Hell?

Good Intentions.

ruveyn


I fail to see how keeping people from going hungry, or freezing to death, or providing people with higher education would pave the way to hell.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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marshall
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has been on the Road To Hell ever since page 2.
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Kraichgauer
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marshall wrote:
This thread has been on the Road To Hell ever since page 2.


You may be right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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auntblabby
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

us mortals could make this world into a progressive heaven [and not a regressive hell] if only enough of us wanted it. but it seems more folks are interested in going in the other direction. hmph
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Kraichgauer
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

auntblabby wrote:
us mortals could make this world into a progressive heaven [and not a regressive hell] if only enough of us wanted it. but it seems more folks are interested in going in the other direction. hmph


I'm not about to argue with that. Sad

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WilliamWDelaney
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: Best. Obama. Analogy. EVER Reply with quote

Dox47 wrote:
Since you insist, "debunk" #3

The assertion:
Quote:
Obama tricked transparency advocates into thinking he'd celebrate whistleblowers and set new standards in open government. He has prosecuted whistleblowers as aggressively as any president in history, and presided over a dramatic escalation in what the federal government does in secret.


The response:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
To Lie #3: Barack Obama promised to strengthen whistleblower protection laws, which he has done.

http://www.whistleblowers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1172&Itemid=207

Quote:
The Food Safety Modernization Act (FSMA) will save American lives by protecting the millions of American workers who grow, process, store and deliver our food. Those workers now have modern whistleblower protections when they raise concerns about the safety of our food...


So in your mind, promising to "celebrate whistleblowers and set new standards in open government" translates as: pass a law protecting food handlers from penalties for whistleblowing?
Color me underwhelmed.

I Googled the words "Obama whistleblowers" and the first 10 results were:

www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058340,00.html
1) It would be stupid to treat an intelligence officer who leaked a classified document, the famous video, the same way we would treat a civilian who made a home-made video, which is how you have been treating it. Manning no more has unlimited freedom of speech than an enlisted soldier has the right to leave base and walk home on a whim. I went through basic combat training. The only reason I didn't serve was that I came down with pneumonia during training, and it turns out I have a weird mood-reactive immune system. It was made clear to me, during my training, that our rights were restricted. We could not leave the base, for any reason, without approval. If you are a member of the US Army, even as a soldier in training, deciding to just wander off the base and catch a ride home could get you charged with desertion, which is a serious offense. Soldiers and civilians are treated differently, and it is right that they are treated differently.

2) The media has portrayed this as if the only thing he is charged with is publishing a video that makes the USA look bad. The media has greatly exaggerated the role this plays in how his case has been treated, and they are making some wild assumptions about why it's involved in the case.

In truth, which you seem to be impaired in, Manning leaked numerous documents, including some important databases:

Quote:
http://conflicthealth.com/how-did-manning-steal-the-cables/

The Wikileaks reports on Iraq and Afghanistan are from a system known as CIDNE (Combined Information/Data Network Exchange) which is the latest iteration of the database of record for all tactical reporting across the OIF and OEF theaters. The release is only a tiny percentage of the actual data contained in the database. Each record in the Wikileaks release is only the initial text report often transcribed from the radio or secret chat rooms. After the incident/action is completed, each record is typically updated with new information, pictures, videos, PowerPoints and other relevant documentation. To allow for transfer into incompatible systems and other software packages, CIDNE includes an “Export to Excel” feature that allows for the rapid filtering and transfer of records to other systems. Bradley Manning likely utilized this feature to export the comprehensive CIDNE database that he would later transmit to Wikileaks. Such an action could be completed in less than an hour depending on the bandwidth available and leaves no signature that would be readily noticed as unusual or alarming.


3) The "aiding the enemy" charge is not even related to the material he distributed.

http://www.disinfo.com/2012/04/bradley-mannings-leaks-irrelevant-to-aiding-enemy-charge-states-military-commission/

Quote:
Members of the public who had seen earlier parts of the trial described a video presentation by the prosecution and recounted the contents of the video, which one woman described as the speech of a man in “traditional Middle Eastern” garments, praising “Allah” for WikiLeaks’ publication of thousands of files from the State and Defense Departments. This video fit into the prosecution’s insistence on an—relative to the former Army intelligence specialist’s other charges—egregious “aiding the enemy” charge, which a ruling yesterday evening revealed would stick.


4) Upon entering the service of the US army, Manning swore an oath, on which he reneged. I have a friend who lived during the 1950s: in his time, Manning could have been shot for that alone, and he probably would have been pistol-whipped on the spot.

People might not take oaths as seriously today as they did in the 1700s, but the reason that many of the Scottish fought for King George III during the American Revolution was that they had sworn an oath. The Scottish had no reason to like King George III. The only reason they had even sworn the oath was that it was the only reason, because they were Scots and had good reason to hate the English, that they were allowed to immigrate to the colonies. Just because we treat a person's word of honor like a joke today doesn't mean that it lacks significance.

Conclusion: Manning WAS NOT A "WHISTLEBLOWER," but he is a TRAITOR. He is a criminal. One more American soldier probably got killed because of him. That is not funny.

I think it's highly dishonest and cheap that you are trying to treat Manning as if he were some civilian journalist putting his own video recording on YouTube or something. He was relaying classified US intelligence, and you are here trying to portray it as something else.

Quote:
Who's playing games now?
Try again. This is just as bad as when you tried to make the killing of a man who was THE FEARLESS LEADER of a chapter of al Qaeda sound like Obama's fearsome Secret Police broke into some totally innocent guy's house in Chicago and summarily executed him for vague "crimes against the state." You are still playing unethical games.
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