TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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 Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | As for customers leaving for more reputable companies due to shoddy or dangerous products or services - after how many sick or dead consumers? After how many people have been cheated out of their money for being misled by spurious claims?
And yes, I am aware the global market has increased the cost of doing business. But it's also true that many of our competitors enforce tariffs on the goods of foreign competitors. That might be something Americans ought to be looking into.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I guess you and I differ in the first matter, I happen to think that if someone lets themselves be mislead by questionable claims, either being cheated out of their money, their health or their life, that's evolution at work weeding out the weak and stupid. I do however agree that the US should look into not only tariffs but increased subsidies (since the Chinese government subsidizes Chinese business quite a lot) and the tax laws which do not charge taxes on profits so long as those profits are not "taken home" to the US thus giving incentive to invest them offshore. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12751
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | As for customers leaving for more reputable companies due to shoddy or dangerous products or services - after how many sick or dead consumers? After how many people have been cheated out of their money for being misled by spurious claims?
And yes, I am aware the global market has increased the cost of doing business. But it's also true that many of our competitors enforce tariffs on the goods of foreign competitors. That might be something Americans ought to be looking into.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I guess you and I differ in the first matter, I happen to think that if someone lets themselves be mislead by questionable claims, either being cheated out of their money, their health or their life, that's evolution at work weeding out the weak and stupid. I do however agree that the US should look into not only tariffs but increased subsidies (since the Chinese government subsidizes Chinese business quite a lot) and the tax laws which do not charge taxes on profits so long as those profits are not "taken home" to the US thus giving incentive to invest them offshore. |
Glad we agree on something.
But as far as buyer beware being dependent on the trust of the consumer, it should be remembered that many of us Aspies are the most likely to be taken by fraudulent claims. Something about us that leads us to believe that everyone else are as honest as us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | TM wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | As for customers leaving for more reputable companies due to shoddy or dangerous products or services - after how many sick or dead consumers? After how many people have been cheated out of their money for being misled by spurious claims?
And yes, I am aware the global market has increased the cost of doing business. But it's also true that many of our competitors enforce tariffs on the goods of foreign competitors. That might be something Americans ought to be looking into.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I guess you and I differ in the first matter, I happen to think that if someone lets themselves be mislead by questionable claims, either being cheated out of their money, their health or their life, that's evolution at work weeding out the weak and stupid. I do however agree that the US should look into not only tariffs but increased subsidies (since the Chinese government subsidizes Chinese business quite a lot) and the tax laws which do not charge taxes on profits so long as those profits are not "taken home" to the US thus giving incentive to invest them offshore. |
Glad we agree on something.
But as far as buyer beware being dependent on the trust of the consumer, it should be remembered that many of us Aspies are the most likely to be taken by fraudulent claims. Something about us that leads us to believe that everyone else are as honest as us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Then perhaps many aspies are an evolutionary dead end. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12751
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | TM wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | As for customers leaving for more reputable companies due to shoddy or dangerous products or services - after how many sick or dead consumers? After how many people have been cheated out of their money for being misled by spurious claims?
And yes, I am aware the global market has increased the cost of doing business. But it's also true that many of our competitors enforce tariffs on the goods of foreign competitors. That might be something Americans ought to be looking into.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I guess you and I differ in the first matter, I happen to think that if someone lets themselves be mislead by questionable claims, either being cheated out of their money, their health or their life, that's evolution at work weeding out the weak and stupid. I do however agree that the US should look into not only tariffs but increased subsidies (since the Chinese government subsidizes Chinese business quite a lot) and the tax laws which do not charge taxes on profits so long as those profits are not "taken home" to the US thus giving incentive to invest them offshore. |
Glad we agree on something.
But as far as buyer beware being dependent on the trust of the consumer, it should be remembered that many of us Aspies are the most likely to be taken by fraudulent claims. Something about us that leads us to believe that everyone else are as honest as us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Then perhaps many aspies are an evolutionary dead end. |
I sincerely hope not.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | TM wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | TM wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | As for customers leaving for more reputable companies due to shoddy or dangerous products or services - after how many sick or dead consumers? After how many people have been cheated out of their money for being misled by spurious claims?
And yes, I am aware the global market has increased the cost of doing business. But it's also true that many of our competitors enforce tariffs on the goods of foreign competitors. That might be something Americans ought to be looking into.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I guess you and I differ in the first matter, I happen to think that if someone lets themselves be mislead by questionable claims, either being cheated out of their money, their health or their life, that's evolution at work weeding out the weak and stupid. I do however agree that the US should look into not only tariffs but increased subsidies (since the Chinese government subsidizes Chinese business quite a lot) and the tax laws which do not charge taxes on profits so long as those profits are not "taken home" to the US thus giving incentive to invest them offshore. |
Glad we agree on something.
But as far as buyer beware being dependent on the trust of the consumer, it should be remembered that many of us Aspies are the most likely to be taken by fraudulent claims. Something about us that leads us to believe that everyone else are as honest as us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Then perhaps many aspies are an evolutionary dead end. |
I sincerely hope not.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Its one of those strange things, sociopaths are in many ways nature's ultimate survivors, normals are the workers bees and aspies are hard to classify. Many make amazing contributions to their fields due to hyper-focus and special interests but ultimately are less equipped for pure survival than the previous two groups. |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5689
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | As for customers leaving for more reputable companies due to shoddy or dangerous products or services - after how many sick or dead consumers? After how many people have been cheated out of their money for being misled by spurious claims?
And yes, I am aware the global market has increased the cost of doing business. But it's also true that many of our competitors enforce tariffs on the goods of foreign competitors. That might be something Americans ought to be looking into.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I guess you and I differ in the first matter, I happen to think that if someone lets themselves be mislead by questionable claims, either being cheated out of their money, their health or their life, that's evolution at work weeding out the weak and stupid. I do however agree that the US should look into not only tariffs but increased subsidies (since the Chinese government subsidizes Chinese business quite a lot) and the tax laws which do not charge taxes on profits so long as those profits are not "taken home" to the US thus giving incentive to invest them offshore. |
Is it 'nature weeding out the sick and the weak' when an unscrupulous doctor bamboozeles a non-medically-minded patient into believing, for example, that he needs a cardiac bypass when he does not actually need anything of the sort?
http://www.theheart.org/article/244417.do
How is it any different when a mortgage broker (for example) takes advantage of someone who is naive about how mortgages work? We cannot all be specialists, or even familiar, with every transaction we take part in; we have to trust the people who know what they're doing to not take advantage of us too terribly. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | | TM wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | As for customers leaving for more reputable companies due to shoddy or dangerous products or services - after how many sick or dead consumers? After how many people have been cheated out of their money for being misled by spurious claims?
And yes, I am aware the global market has increased the cost of doing business. But it's also true that many of our competitors enforce tariffs on the goods of foreign competitors. That might be something Americans ought to be looking into.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I guess you and I differ in the first matter, I happen to think that if someone lets themselves be mislead by questionable claims, either being cheated out of their money, their health or their life, that's evolution at work weeding out the weak and stupid. I do however agree that the US should look into not only tariffs but increased subsidies (since the Chinese government subsidizes Chinese business quite a lot) and the tax laws which do not charge taxes on profits so long as those profits are not "taken home" to the US thus giving incentive to invest them offshore. |
Is it 'nature weeding out the sick and the weak' when an unscrupulous doctor bamboozeles a non-medically-minded patient into believing, for example, that he needs a cardiac bypass when he does not actually need anything of the sort?
http://www.theheart.org/article/244417.do
How is it any different when a mortgage broker (for example) takes advantage of someone who is naive about how mortgages work? We cannot all be specialists, or even familiar, with every transaction we take part in; we have to trust the people who know what they're doing to not take advantage of us too terribly. |
You'd have to be a moron to have major surgery without getting a second opinion or at least reading up on treatment options. Damn, I get second opinions before I have a haircut or get my pubes done. Never trust ANYONE, always assume that you're dealing with an incompetent moron (but don't show them that you think that) and consider what angles another person has in the interaction. |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5689
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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If a respected cardiac surgeon, to whom you'd been referred by your PCP, told you, 'You need to be cathed RIGHT NOW OR YOU'RE GOING TO DIE,' (which is basically what Dr. Moon was doing), would you get a second opinion?
Would you get a second opinion if, as in Dr. Moon's case, similarly qualified cardiac surgeons were relatively thin on the ground because you lived in a fairly rural area, and said second opinion might take a week or more to get?
If you're actually admitted into the hospital, and the hospitalist says that you need some x course of therapy, are you really going to call in another hospitalist? Would you call in the second opinion if x was a new drug? What if x was insulin? What if x was exploratory abdominal surgery? What if the hospitalist was a good salesperson, and was convincing that x drug was really very good for your condition, and had few side-effects?
If the average person spends weeks with a mortgage broker working out a deal, and has to pay $300 or more in fees to work out said deal, can Mr. Average legitimately think that said $300 in fees is enough to mean that /he/ is paying the broker, and the broker should be working for /him,/ and not the bank?
I do not have time to be an expert in everything. I do not have the money to get second opinions on every service that I need.
I do not think that it is unreasonable to ask that the people who provide services to me not lie or work against my best interests; if they do, I think that they should be convicted of malpractice or fraud. In return, I work as best I can for the best interests of my patients, and I don't lie to them.
That's civilization, not gullibility. People who deliberately lie to those who are paying for their services, and take advantage of them, are parasites and should be treated as such. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9191
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Liberals are more likely to be more open minded how ever conservatives are the ones always demonizing the left so it's the right that is not willing to work with liberals. |
Yes, I'm sure on some planet liberals are never hard headed and never demonize the right.
This is not that planet.
Having clarified that; I love being demonized by the left.
It's the best indicator that I'm on the right track.  |
If you really wana piss off the left remind them that they voted against the civil rights bill and that the rigth was the ones that got it passed  that always upsets my granfather a democrat. |
Like the Dixiecrats were ever "left".  Another thing where I notice the right failing to understand the left, they think we all swear our allegiance to the Democratic party and watch MSNBC and other "lamestream media". That's a pretty good indication that they are quite far out of the loop. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9191
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | The reason for flagging out to China isn't just "they can pay workers less" its "workers work harder in China", "Worker effort is of a higher quality in China", "Workers are better educated in China", and so on. |
It's funny that none of that is actually true. The productivity of Chinese workers is actually less than that of American workers. Efficient management and automation are what increase productivity, not whipping the peasants to "work harder". There's a hard upper limit to what a menial assembly line or sweat-shop worker can accomplish per hour. The Chinese are simply paid less for longer hours, require less health standards, and receive no benefits. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | | TM wrote: | | The reason for flagging out to China isn't just "they can pay workers less" its "workers work harder in China", "Worker effort is of a higher quality in China", "Workers are better educated in China", and so on. |
It's funny that none of that is actually true. The productivity of Chinese workers is actually less than that of American workers. Efficient management and automation are what increase productivity, not whipping the peasants to "work harder". There's a hard upper limit to what a menial assembly line or sweat-shop worker can accomplish per hour. The Chinese are simply paid less for longer hours, require less health standards, and receive no benefits. |
Go and look up the Iphone glass screen story, and you'll see why China is preferable. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | If a respected cardiac surgeon, to whom you'd been referred by your PCP, told you, 'You need to be cathed RIGHT NOW OR YOU'RE GOING TO DIE,' (which is basically what Dr. Moon was doing), would you get a second opinion?
Would you get a second opinion if, as in Dr. Moon's case, similarly qualified cardiac surgeons were relatively thin on the ground because you lived in a fairly rural area, and said second opinion might take a week or more to get?
If you're actually admitted into the hospital, and the hospitalist says that you need some x course of therapy, are you really going to call in another hospitalist? Would you call in the second opinion if x was a new drug? What if x was insulin? What if x was exploratory abdominal surgery? What if the hospitalist was a good salesperson, and was convincing that x drug was really very good for your condition, and had few side-effects?
If the average person spends weeks with a mortgage broker working out a deal, and has to pay $300 or more in fees to work out said deal, can Mr. Average legitimately think that said $300 in fees is enough to mean that /he/ is paying the broker, and the broker should be working for /him,/ and not the bank?
I do not have time to be an expert in everything. I do not have the money to get second opinions on every service that I need.
I do not think that it is unreasonable to ask that the people who provide services to me not lie or work against my best interests; if they do, I think that they should be convicted of malpractice or fraud. In return, I work as best I can for the best interests of my patients, and I don't lie to them.
That's civilization, not gullibility. People who deliberately lie to those who are paying for their services, and take advantage of them, are parasites and should be treated as such. |
I already stated:
- Always get second opinions.
Furthermore, never assume that your interests are the same as the person you are paying. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9191
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Also, TM, maybe your infatuation with social darwinism is just some kind of macho-pseudo-intellectual posturing, but you're not exactly helping the cause of showing that "fiscal conservatives" are not simply evil and lacking in moral scruples. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12751
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | TM wrote: | | The reason for flagging out to China isn't just "they can pay workers less" its "workers work harder in China", "Worker effort is of a higher quality in China", "Workers are better educated in China", and so on. |
It's funny that none of that is actually true. The productivity of Chinese workers is actually less than that of American workers. Efficient management and automation are what increase productivity, not whipping the peasants to "work harder". There's a hard upper limit to what a menial assembly line or sweat-shop worker can accomplish per hour. The Chinese are simply paid less for longer hours, require less health standards, and receive no benefits. |
Go and look up the Iphone glass screen story, and you'll see why China is preferable. |
I think you have to ask yourself: which industrial system would I want to work under. In that case, I think the answer is clear. I can't imagine a single person being masochistic enough to want the labor in a Chinese industrial plant.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5180
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| DW_a_mom wrote: | | Either those people are not what I would consider "typical" liberals, or you aren't understanding them. |
I was actually referring to specific people and specific interactions that I'd had with individuals that fit in with the thesis of the paper I linked in the OP, that people on the left have a harder time understanding the motives of people on the right than vise-versa, and that the effect gets stronger the further left you go. I wasn't meaning to imply anything about any "typical" liberal by my later comment on my own experience with arguing PPACA, just adding a supporting anecdote taken from my own life.
| DW_a_mom wrote: | | I can see your position, but one reason the constitutional argument rings hallow for me politically, when it comes from a conservative as v. a Libertarian, is that the mandate idea was developed by a conservative think tank as solution for the real problem of people being consumers of health care whether they thought they would be or not, because we are a country that will allow anyone and everyone to access care in an emergency situation. To get to people dying into the streets from not having the mandate you have to back into assuming we also change our ethics on treatment, and while I have heard some tea party supporters say we should do just that, I know it isn't the prevalent opinion. |
Are you saying that your opinion of the idea would change depending upon the source? I mean I agree that conservatives who backed the mandate when it was their idea and denounced it when it became Obama's are being hypocrites, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether it's a good idea or Constitutional.
| DW_a_mom wrote: | | The empathy that I frequently hear missing from the right on all this is that they over-assume access to free healthcare. When I talk about how constrained our family has felt because of health insurance issues, they shoot back that everyone can get free healthcare in a county hospital, as if it really is that easy. It isn't. First, my county does not have a county non-profit hospital. Second, that answer is inefficient cost wise - waiting for emergency care is more expensive than preventative care, and if there is a free county hospital, that costs more in tax dollars than government health insurance would; it makes no fiscal sense as a policy, to rely on "free" emergency care. And so on ... To me, it all comes back to refusing to see what they don't want to see because, yes, they are worried that what it all really means is someone trying to take dollars from their pocket and put it into someone else's. |
That's a different argument, and one that I'm receptive to. I does cost more to treat emergency patients than it does to provide preventative services, so an argument structured that way, that a stronger healthcare program is better fiscally and for the nation's health, is a strong one. That's not the argument I tend to encounter though, that argument is the one that calls me cold hearted, cruel, mean, heartless, etc because I dare ask "how are we going to pay for that?" and/or "is that legal?". The people making the former argument are not the people I was referring to in my comment, the latter are.
| DW_a_mom wrote: | | My mom debates these issues constantly with her good friend, Sarah Palin groupie, who is living on a government pension, very nicely, all the healthcare funded by taxpayers. The irony is amazing. |
Did she pay into the pension? IMHO taking a benefit you don't agree with but nevertheless paid for isn't hypocrisy.
_________________
Unconditional allegiance is the surest way to render one’s beliefs and agenda irrelevant
Any power that government has to do something you like will invariably be used for something you abhor
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