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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9445
Location: Western Michigan
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 Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| naturalplastic wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | naturalplastic wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | ..... how many past societies have been "innovation friendly"? I mean, I am thrown off in thinking of the basis for comparison. The modern age, and the modern society is the most RAPIDLY CHANGING thing in ALL OF HISTORY. Like, if you want to look at slow, look at the Middle Ages, or the Chinese Empire. However, age-old customs have been going out the window relatively quickly in historical terms. |
Victorian England was very much taken by mechanical and electrical inventions.
ruveyn |
But the Victorians hated Charles Darwin, rioted when Cezanne displayed his artwork, and were scandalized that Mark Twain would write a novel glorifying a runaway juvenile delinquent. And the OP said that "BESIDES technology nothing is changing"
. So we are not even talking about technology per se.
The world today is not anymore hostile to innovations than it ever was. Maybe less so. Whether there actually is less innovation than there used to be I dont know. Dont see any solid evidence for that. But if that is indeed the case then there maybe other reasons for that than American hedgemony. |
It's not that there is anything suppressing innovation. It's more that the low hanging fruit has already been eaten. |
This
I agree with the OP that there have been no new music genres invented since 1990, but thats because theres nothn left to invent, not because of McWorld domination.
Actually actual musicians take it back even further: both my Jazz professor and Sting say that in music "everything since 1970 is rehash". |
I don't exactly agree with that. A lot of it is but certainly not everything.
Also, as far as music goes the low hanging fruit are the formulas that have broad appeal. I still think there's a lot of room for new styles of expression in music. It's just that it's become more of a niche thing. The age of novel iconic popular anthems is pretty much over. |
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donnie_darko
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Age: 23
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | ..... how many past societies have been "innovation friendly"? I mean, I am thrown off in thinking of the basis for comparison. The modern age, and the modern society is the most RAPIDLY CHANGING thing in ALL OF HISTORY. Like, if you want to look at slow, look at the Middle Ages, or the Chinese Empire. However, age-old customs have been going out the window relatively quickly in historical terms. |
Rapidly changing up to about 1980 yes. But since then? It's slowed a lot. |
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donnie_darko
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Age: 23
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | Also, as for culture it seems there's less optimism. People no longer believe that technology will save us. There are no lofty sci-fi notions of space exploration and colonizing other planets. Even the idea that the earth will one day be a better place with the end of poverty seems dead. People no longer seem to believe that "progress" will continue. Instead we're sitting around wringing our hands over budgets and deficits and how the whole world is going to go to hell, and we just need to buckle down and cling tightly to what we have and not let the animals come and steal any crumbs. In short, idealism is for losers. Politicians exist only to be despised. Everyone is an idiot (except ourselves  ) and nobody is to be trusted. We are all bound by forces beyond our control (whether its "Evil Big Government", "Evil Big Business", or "Selfish Human Nature" ) and to think anything can change is to be mocked and ridiculed. |
I love you. That is spot on. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14856
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | Also, as for culture it seems there's less optimism. People no longer believe that technology will save us. There are no lofty sci-fi notions of space exploration and colonizing other planets. Even the idea that the earth will one day be a better place with the end of poverty seems dead. People no longer seem to believe that "progress" will continue. Instead we're sitting around wringing our hands over budgets and deficits and how the whole world is going to go to hell, and we just need to buckle down and cling tightly to what we have and not let the animals come and steal any crumbs. In short, idealism is for losers. Politicians exist only to be despised. Everyone is an idiot (except ourselves ) and nobody is to be trusted. We are all bound by forces beyond our control (whether its "Evil Big Government", "Evil Big Business", or "Selfish Human Nature" ) and to think anything can change is to be mocked and ridiculed. |
I love you. That is spot on. |
The ironic thing about that is - the first thing, belief that technology will save us, is likely the most sane thing to look forward to. Technology quite literally takes the bottomline fundamental rules and works to rearrange them closer to our liking, make our world more hospitable, even make our relationships with each other (such as thickening the veil of society with sturdy abundance or finding ways to treat things that inherently cause friction and no benefit - such as various forms of criminal psychosis).
When people go naysaying that its like saying "Please - my head's spinning, I'm tired". Perhaps people are getting a bit of future shock and feel sick or disoriented by the current pace? They have to keep in mind though - they can either give in, let it be, and stay out of its way or they can indulge themselves but at the cost of suffering, war, famine, etc. while they try and displace themselves and inadvertently decide to frown on progress. |
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ruveyn
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Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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As long as the patent office is open for business there is still hope.
ruveyn |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9445
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | Also, as for culture it seems there's less optimism. People no longer believe that technology will save us. There are no lofty sci-fi notions of space exploration and colonizing other planets. Even the idea that the earth will one day be a better place with the end of poverty seems dead. People no longer seem to believe that "progress" will continue. Instead we're sitting around wringing our hands over budgets and deficits and how the whole world is going to go to hell, and we just need to buckle down and cling tightly to what we have and not let the animals come and steal any crumbs. In short, idealism is for losers. Politicians exist only to be despised. Everyone is an idiot (except ourselves ) and nobody is to be trusted. We are all bound by forces beyond our control (whether its "Evil Big Government", "Evil Big Business", or "Selfish Human Nature" ) and to think anything can change is to be mocked and ridiculed. |
I love you. That is spot on. |
It's funny because I feel like I'm quite a cynic myself, but I've sort of come full circle to the point where I'm also cynical of cynicism, if that makes any sense. It's just gotten to the point where it's overbearing. |
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Oldout
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Joined: Feb 10, 2012
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Location: Reading, PA
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem is technology cannot change human nature which has its dark side. We must be careful not to be too mesmerized by the "take a pill" or "buy this" and everything will be OK. I suspect that we deal less and less with each other as people today than as positions and that is why we became frustrated and thirst for a more satisfying relationships. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9445
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Oldout wrote: | | The problem is technology cannot change human nature which has its dark side. We must be careful not to be too mesmerized by the "take a pill" or "buy this" and everything will be OK. I suspect that we deal less and less with each other as people today than as positions and that is why we became frustrated and thirst for a more satisfying relationships. |
Don't worry, I'm far from memorized. I just see the death in the belief in human progress due to rampant cynicism as a dangerous path towards cultural decline. It just feels like nobody is interested in facing the future anymore. |
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donnie_darko
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:02 am Post subject: |
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[quote="marshall"] | Oldout wrote: |
Don't worry, I'm far from memorized. I just see the death in the belief in human progress due to rampant cynicism as a dangerous path towards cultural decline. It just feels like nobody is interested in facing the future anymore. |
Agreed 100%. Also I don't think human nature is as horrible as it's made out to be ... sure, there are murders, rape/kidnappings, torture and other atrocity but they are mostly motivated by insanity and survival instinct, it's not like people have this great love for causing suffering as a species. |
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ruveyn
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Age: 76
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: |
Don't worry, I'm far from memorized. I just see the death in the belief in human progress due to rampant cynicism as a dangerous path towards cultural decline. It just feels like nobody is interested in facing the future anymore. |
What do you mean by progress? We see technological advance virtually on a daily basis. Is your idea of "progress" distinct from technological advance?
If you mean by "progress" are humans getting any better in the moral or ethical sense, then prepare to be disappointed. From an ethical or moral p.o.v. we are the same nasty beast as we were 10,000 years ago. Our moral/ethical nature (or lack thereof) is genetically wired in.
ruveyn |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14856
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: |
If you mean by "progress" are humans getting any better in the moral or ethical sense, then prepare to be disappointed. From an ethical or moral p.o.v. we are the same nasty beast as we were 10,000 years ago. Our moral/ethical nature (or lack thereof) is genetically wired in. |
Largely, although the thickness or thinness of the 'veil of society' tends to have some play in that as well - ie. people get a little less nasty when the weather isn't requiring it for their survival as much. |
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ruveyn
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: |
If you mean by "progress" are humans getting any better in the moral or ethical sense, then prepare to be disappointed. From an ethical or moral p.o.v. we are the same nasty beast as we were 10,000 years ago. Our moral/ethical nature (or lack thereof) is genetically wired in. |
Largely, although the thickness or thinness of the 'veil of society' tends to have some play in that as well - ie. people get a little less nasty when the weather isn't requiring it for their survival as much. |
That is true. When we are not hard pressed we can indulge our occasional generous impulses a bit. If I am not worrying about where my next meal is coming from I can afford to be charitable and cordial with other folks. All things being equal I would rather be on good terms with the folks around me than in a state of war.
Being socialized rounds off some of the rough edges. But in our hearts we are no better now than we were 10,000 years ago. As long as our moral/ethical nature is the product of our genes we are not likely to change except though some Darwinian challenge causing our species to become something else.
ruveyn. |
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edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | | Also, as for culture it seems there's less optimism. People no longer believe that technology will save us. There are no lofty sci-fi notions of space exploration and colonizing other planets. Even the idea that the earth will one day be a better place with the end of poverty seems dead. People no longer seem to believe that "progress" will continue. Instead we're sitting around wringing our hands over budgets and deficits and how the whole world is going to go to hell, and we just need to buckle down and cling tightly to what we have and not let the animals come and steal any crumbs. In short, idealism is for losers. Politicians exist only to be despised. Everyone is an idiot (except ourselves ) and nobody is to be trusted. We are all bound by forces beyond our control (whether its "Evil Big Government", "Evil Big Business", or "Selfish Human Nature" ) and to think anything can change is to be mocked and ridiculed. |
Yep, its the ultimate "can't do" society. A complete failure of imagination on all fronts. Irrational approaches, like, let's expand the economy by reducing everything, downsize all the business and slash the public sector - this will produce growth (??!!!???!??!) |
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ruveyn
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Age: 76
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| edgewaters wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | Also, as for culture it seems there's less optimism. People no longer believe that technology will save us. There are no lofty sci-fi notions of space exploration and colonizing other planets. Even the idea that the earth will one day be a better place with the end of poverty seems dead. People no longer seem to believe that "progress" will continue. Instead we're sitting around wringing our hands over budgets and deficits and how the whole world is going to go to hell, and we just need to buckle down and cling tightly to what we have and not let the animals come and steal any crumbs. In short, idealism is for losers. Politicians exist only to be despised. Everyone is an idiot (except ourselves ) and nobody is to be trusted. We are all bound by forces beyond our control (whether its "Evil Big Government", "Evil Big Business", or "Selfish Human Nature" ) and to think anything can change is to be mocked and ridiculed. |
Yep, its the ultimate "can't do" society. A complete failure of imagination on all fronts. Irrational approaches, like, let's expand the economy by reducing everything, downsize all the business and slash the public sector - this will produce growth (??!!!???!??!) |
The Mother of Growth is technological innovation. Therefor those societies which nurture and encourage such innovation are likely to be better for the folks who live in them.
ruveyn |
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edgewaters
hibernating
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Age: 40
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Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | The Mother of Growth is technological innovation. Therefor those societies which nurture and encourage such innovation are likely to be better for the folks who live in them. |
True, but innovation comes from a mindset which thinks in terms of possibilities, not limitations. |
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