Post 4654325 - (How come so many people here treat AS like a race/club?)

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How come so many people here treat AS like a race/club?

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Matt62
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject:

Of course, debating who's life sucks more is even more counterproductive than the grandiose view. Challenges that need to be overcome? Yes, I can live with that idea. I have found a few ASD people here who seem to doubt anyone who was not dxed when they were 5 by some specialist here, but I must say they are not a majority. I have found recently, a few who seem pretty severe trying to use all this as a reason to throw out all ASDs in their efforts at denial.. Hmm, I think I can summarize my current thoughts/feelings about this: 1) Next step in Evolution, or different & better. Seriously???? 2) A God Awful curse! We should never have been born with such a terrible disease! Depressing.. 3) Different, with some serious challenges. But trying the best as we can. My current thinking that this is the best way to view it. Sincerely, Matthew

New-Yorker
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject:

Sweetleaf wrote:

That way I don't have to pretend like I'm a normal function person and have things fall apart when the dating/marrige partner realizes I was not being honest and cannot deal with someone that has the sort of issues I do.

Sweetleaf wrote:

Also I think potential employers/customers should be more tolerant of the fact some people have mental disorders

Yes, they should be more tolerant, but, unfortunately, not all of them are. And everyone - Aspie or not - needs a job, which is not very easy to find during bad economy.

Sweetleaf wrote:

then expecting them to use all their energy hiding it because otherwise they'll be scorned and fired.

Sweetleaf wrote:

Why should those of us with mental disorders hide the way we are and live in fear of judgement from society? I mean why should societies intolerance for anyone who's different be accommodated by the mentally disordered?

If you have reached a peace of mind about living with this disorder and accepting its limitations for the rest of your life, then, of course, there's no reason to live in fear of judgement from the society. If you're not demanding too much from the society, then the society should not (and does not) demand too much from you. But if you believe that you are capable (with extra efforts, of course) to earn the acceptance by the general society (at all levels - work, relationship, etc.) that most NT people take for granted, then, I believe, the goal is worth the effort.

Sweetleaf
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject:

New-Yorker wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

The decision about what to disclose and what to keep to yourself varies from person to person; it's not one-size-fits-all. What I wrote is based on my personal experience and my personal condition. I don't think my behavioral differences would jeopardize a relationship once it has been already established. But being open about suspecting AS could very well derail a potential for a not-yet-existing relationship. I haven't been officially diagnosed as of now (and that's one of the reasons why); but even if I was, I would not disclose it too early. As for whether to reveal it to the partner (and at what point) - it depends on the individual's personal situation.

I don't think I would want to get close to someone who might judge me for it, so might as well be open about its so I know ahead of time if they have an issue with it. That does not mean I introduce myself by going into all my problems, but before things get serious I think it is important to bring it up and make sure they are ok with it....But that is just my opinion on it I suppose.

Sweetleaf wrote:

Also I think potential employers/customers should be more tolerant of the fact some people have mental disorders

Yes, they should be more tolerant, but, unfortunately, not all of them are. And everyone - Aspie or not - needs a job, which is not very easy to find during bad economy.

I am aware of that, unfortunately for me I suck at functioning normally because I'm too 'mental' oh and 'slow' that is why I got fired the last time...whatever maybe a psychiatrist can give me some drug that reduces my symptoms enough for part time work or some crap, I don't know kinda feel like I am at a dead end in life and am seriously considering SSI.

Sweetleaf wrote:

then expecting them to use all their energy hiding it because otherwise they'll be scorned and fired.

Again, it depends on how serious you condition is, and whether you're capable of performing the required duties if hired. Of course, if you feel that you're either unable to do the job, or it would cause you too much discomfort, then you could rightfully question whether or not the position is worth your effort. But if it's all about having your personality "accepted" by the hiring manager/boss (which is too often being the case), then I would discourage you from allowing your AS to pigeonhole you.

It would not be so much me allowing it to, it would be that I have an inability to mask the aspergers and other issues, but yes I guess less severe people might be better at faking. I just think it must suck to have to give up your very being for the majority of your time, all in the name of work.

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well honestly I still do kind of, though its not so much the judgement itself but what people might do because of having the judgement. I never really even demanded anything from society I was alienated from it at a fairly early age and that's only increased. Also believe what you want but I think I'd be incapable of that even if I tried, and honestly I gave up on societies acceptance a long time ago. But anyways I don't want a romantic relationship or kids anyways.
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Sora
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:51 am Post subject:

Diamorphine wrote:

Sora wrote:

Diamorphine wrote:

To be honest, if I were mentally disabled

Confuzzling. What's your definition of mental disability/mentally disabled which is often used synonymously to "mental disorder"?

Don't you have a type of ADHD or something?

What do you think ADHD as according to the DSM-IV/ICD-10 is exactly?

Yes, I have severe ADHD. But when I said mentally DISABLED, I meant an IQ of below 50. A person with untreated ADHD isn't disabled, their life just sucks more than anyone elses. A person with an IQ below 50 won't be able to survive on their own, therfore qualifying as "disabled".

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

Why an IQ of 50 however? Does your personal definition of disability differ that much from the official definition(s)?

As for people with untreated or treated ADHD not being disabled in general(?), I disagree with that.

I don't know about severe ADHD but with just moderate ADHD, there are plenty of opportunities to accidentally harm yourself or even die which mean survival isn't exactly guaranteed if literally left on your own;

it requires someone to take care of you in daily life even if you're doing very well with both self-help and adaptive skills in terms of your impairment (you know, against those claims of oh-so-smart people that you're too impaired to do whatever and shouldn't try hard) due to the pronounced hyperactivity and impulsivity coupled with a gross learning impairment (despite an average or high IQ) that puts your ability to pay attention and take information in as well as process them in real time on the level of someone with a borderline or mild intellectual disability. That part does suck, I guess.

As the educational definition of disabilities and identification of special needs is along that line, I consider ADHD a disorder that can be disabling.
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Ganondox
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject:

Diamorphine wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Diamorphine wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Diamorphine wrote:

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

fleurdelily wrote:

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

Diamorphine wrote:

"The next step in human evolution" makes people with AS seem grandiose with a retardedly huge superiority complex. I'd rather be looked at as weird than a crazy ass schizo who thinks he's god.

That's being too negative.

um, no it isn't. I've agree with diamorphine completely. I've picked up the "you're not one of us if you're self-diagnosed" attitudes oozing from these forums. Believe me, I DEFINITLY do NOT want to be an aspie. So get over yourself. I have even witnessed a bit of aspie-as-bully in that attitude, right here on these forums. It's quite repugnant

That post is repugnant, though, with terminology like "crazy ass schizo" and "retardedly huge superiority complex." In fact, ironically, I have noticed quite a few inferiority complexes on WP, including myself, more than I have superiority complexes. I haven't noticed anyone using that terminology toward the self diagnosed. Just questioning self diagnosis is not the same as insulting someone who is self diagnosed with derogatory terminology.

Who cares about the terminology. Being insane means you lose touch with reality, and schizophrenics often lose touch with reality. Insanity isn't an insult, it's a medical ailment. And finding "retard" offensive in that context just tells me you're a crybaby. To be honest, if I were mentally disabled, I'd rather just be called "a blithering idiot" as opposed to "special", because at least the former is telling it how it is and not making stupid euphemisms to pwotect peepwez feewings. I didn't SAY EVERYONE on these forums had the superiority complex. It's a small but loud minority. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch.

Well Insanity is kind of a vague term and does not necessarily imply anything medical...but I don't find insanity to be an insult unless someone means it as an insult. I mean compared to the other issues I have the aspergers seems to be the least of my worries...though the sensory issues and difficulty in social interaction makes things quite a bit difficult in itself.

Also for someone complaining about superiority complex you seem to have quite the attitude towards people with mental disorders like schizophrenia, mental retardation and downs syndrome...if you end up with brain damage and it makes you come off retarded we can all see you as a blithering idiot if you'd like.........but most people with such issues don't like being insulted that way.

Well, you can kind of understand my little hate for schizophrenia growing up with a mother who had it and refused to get help. Sure, some of her psychotic beliefs were funny and sh** you could brush off, but when she starts running around the house knocking over everything "BECAUSE THEY'RE COMING TO GET HER" (who and why never explained), it makes you really develop a hate for the disease.

I don't think that justifies hatred towards people with schizophrenia in general, and it seems you are a little ignorant on just how severe it can be, and how much it can interfere with functioning and ability to rationalize getting help. I mean it seems like you're hating the people not the disease....you have to keep in mind people with schizophrenia do not ask to be convinced that someones 'coming to get them' but since they are they are going to react as though it is a fact.......I mean if you knew someone was coming after someone and that person was freaking out would you just tell them to not have a reaction knowing its impossible? so by that logic how can someone convinced of something like that react any differently.

It is certainly fine to hate the disease and be frustrated about your mom, but that is nothing to hold against schizophrenics in general or those with mental conditions in general. I mean hell if something sets of my PTSD I can react pretty extreme no matter how much I try to hold back and don't want to. And then I might go overboard putting myself down for it because I feel bad that I couldn't control it and avoid causing problems or whatever. I mean its not as though people with mental disorders want to experience the symptoms. Though sometimes one has to accept they have certain disorders or symptoms and work with that and cope with having it.......to some maybe that resembles wanting to have a mental disorder, but I think it is more of a matter of accepting you have one(or more) and not beating yourself up over it.....at least for me that would be the case.

Thing is, there's a wide variety of antipsychotics out there that could have made her at least semi-normal. She refused and decided to make the first 12 years of my life and the last 15 years of being married to my dad miserable as all f**k. Especially when you're an impressionable 6 year old who actually believes the nonsense.

I don't hate schizophrenics. I hate schizophrenia and the schizophrenics who refuse to get some haloperidol and stop being nothing but a pain in the ass. I turned out okay, but some other kids with schizophrenic parents end up dead because of one of their parent's stupid, stupid refusal to get treated. I know what psychosis is like, I've stayed up for 8 days on meth before. It was not a good feeling, I don't see why anyone would want to live like that.

The thing is that antipsychotics are not safe; they have serious sideffects like a decrease I'm cognitive functioning. There is reasons to not want to take them besides pride.
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MotherKnowsBest
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject:

Sora wrote:

Diamorphine wrote:

Sora wrote:

Diamorphine wrote:

To be honest, if I were mentally disabled

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

Why an IQ of 50 however? Does your personal definition of disability differ that much from the official definition(s)?

Yes it does. The official definition of intellectual disability is an IQ of less than 70. Someone in the 70-80 range would find life difficult.

The way IQ works is they test a huge number of random people of the same chronological age. Then the results are 'standardised' ie fiddled with, so that on a Gaussian (bell) curve the average is 100 with the majority falling within 30 of either side and 5% at either end outside of these parameters.

The general population is then measured against this.

League_Girl
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject:

People who have an IQ in the 71-84 range are called slow learners and its not even considered a disability nor do they qualify for special ed. teachers don't even have to give them accommodations because there is no law to protect them. So they are left to struggle through life and school. I think it should be a disability and it sucks to fall through the cracks. But yet they ca still have a learning disability such as dyslexia or still have other disabilities like autism. Then they would qualify for help.

MotherKnowsBest
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject:

Quite right League Girl. It's like an autism diagnosis, there's that one point where they rule yes or no and people close enough to that measure to need help but not quite close enough are left to struggle.

friedmacguffins
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject:

I get caught up in the moment, and completely forget that I have a different way of thinking. As someone who does tend to systematize things, it gives me comfort to know I am not in a state of random chaos; my traits occur for a reason. I believe that some degree of social utilitarianism is most convenient, but cannot say who is better suited between the AS and the NT. The NT is social, but the AS is utilitarian. Social people report having more difficulty acting appropriately when keeping order, for order's sake, rather than for sentimental reasons.

Matt62
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:10 pm Post subject:

I have disclosed my suspected ASD to one of my supervisors. Fortunately, she has a relative with AS, so it was not a huge disaster. But my employer now wants to know about ALL my health conditions. I am not sure about this, they want written statements on what I get treated for. Unfortunately, my IBD problems stretch back into 1992 (when I got that dx) so finding anything on that will be difficult. OK, starting to digress too much here, I must say that it went better than I had hoped for. I seriously was not going to say anthing. But I also added as an adult, they are sill working on the autism thing. Most of the time, my challenges do not effect my work performance much, if at all. There have been a couple of situations though, where I seriously have difficulties. Usually involving crowds or noisy infants. Sensory overloads are still possible for me, even at 50. Hopefully, in time, ASDs might not be viewed any differently than wearing glasses. But its a long stretch until that day.. SweetLeaf: You do realize your depression is influencing everything you think & feel right? Been there, done that. But some day, hopefully soo, your world may not look as dark as it seems. It does get better. Sincerely, Matthew

friedmacguffins
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject:

I've been admonished for not making suitable eye contact or affirming other people, in spite of exceeding quotas, by ten times, when left alone. When engaged, I completely forget what I was in the middle of doing, so would take several minutes to regain my composure.

Sora
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:36 am Post subject:

League_Girl wrote:

People who have an IQ in the 71-84 range are called slow learners and its not even considered a disability nor do they qualify for special ed. teachers don't even have to give them accommodations because there is no law to protect them. So they are left to struggle through life and school. I think it should be a disability and it sucks to fall through the cracks. But yet they ca still have a learning disability such as dyslexia or still have other disabilities like autism. Then they would qualify for help.

That's such an extreme. We have it the other way round which is probably just as extreme.

In Germany, students with an IQ somewhere in that range are automatically considered special ed and put into special schools either for the "learning disabled" or schools for people with a diagnosis of mental retardation and/or with severe multiple disabilities that require 24/7 care.

It's rare for someone with such an IQ score to be accepted into regular ed (even if they worked their way up and want to graduate the lowest/easiest regular ed school form to have a chance at getting a job after school, for example) unless their IQ is unknown and/or they went under the "radar". It's not so rare that kids who happen to have their IQ tested for some reason and scored in the 85-90 range end up in special ed as well.
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edgewaters
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:53 am Post subject: Re: How come so many people here treat AS like a race/club?

Diamorphine wrote:

I know you're trying to not let your AS diagnosis limit yourself by saying it's not a disease, but it's incredibly counter-productive to start treating it like an exclusive club or race. It's as much of a race/club as schizophrenia, ADHD, and cancer.

Actually communities do form around things like schizophrenia and cancer. Simply put, people can relate with others dealing with the same issues. When the individuals also suffer from discrimination, something cultural is likely to form. This is just an inescapable facet of human nature - it begins as soon as there is communication.

Going so far as to think of it as a race or imposing standards by which to exclude others is something that is not inescapable, but it doesn't seem to be a common problem around here to my eyes. There are a few - as there are in any group, really - but they seem to be a minority.

wokndead
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:43 am Post subject:

Ganondox wrote:

The thing is that antipsychotics are not safe; they have serious sideffects like a decrease I'm cognitive functioning. There is reasons to not want to take them besides pride.

Agreed. My wife has schizoaffective disorder, and was on some pretty strong meds for awhile. She eventually decided to stop them, and just stay on the antidepressant, because the schizo meds would pretty much make her useless. And when you have 4 young children, there's no time to be useless. Sure, she'd stop hearing voices as much, but that's probably due to the fact that she couldn't stay awake. The antidepressant keeps her stress and anxiety down, which keeps the voices at bay.
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:30 am Post subject:

fleurdelily wrote:

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

Some people are natural questioners. They question their own diagnosis. They question others self diagnoses. Since Autistics are all different from one another, they might even question others actual diagnoses. Perhaps people who question do not realize how it looks to others?

They're free to question. They're not free to be condescending. They have to learn to have some regard for the journey of self-discovery that others are on. Questioning is good. Judging a person who is vulnerable and stuggling is NOT.

It's not easy telling when someone is struggling over the internet sometimes, or know someone is upset, etc. Sometimes, it just seems like someone is wondering something about themselves and is looking for feedback. When someone posts such a topic, some respond with the suggestion it's better, in their opinion, to get a professional diagnosis. The professional diagnosis is just another opinion from another perspective about an individual. No one has to agree or disagree with it. The person receiving the diagnosis is not branded for life just because one professional has determined something about them.
This is what is happening on WP. People are just offering opinions. It's up to the individual to decide how much weight each opinion carries.
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