Kjas
Onçinha
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 4879
Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
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 Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Apart from the obvious reasons of these types of threads being locked for personal attacks, implications and other unsavoury things, I largely think the reason these threads aren't taken seriously is due to two other main factors.
One is the intellectualization of xenophobia (which I am going to leave alone).
The second reason which some of us could actually do something about is not just discussing ideology and immigration. Not to say they don't have their place, but when you focus exclusively on these two factors to the exclusion of all else, it comes across the wrong way. (as a muslim or immigrantion bash fest rather than an actual discussion with an aim and point)
If other things were included and considered at least somewhat in depth, like the state of these immigrants home countries and what lead to those situations to begin with, that would help greatly.
As would it help if people here considered that crime, gangs and other such things are very much intertwined with poverty. Nobody here has addressed the poverty issue, I certainly know when specific minority groups have managed to do well economically for themselves, or at least are self-sustainable, many of the issues relating to crime, gangs and unrest are no longer a problem.
If you guys branch out and start acknowledging the other contributing factors to this, it will be more of a discussion and less of a bash fest, and therefore the threads will be less likely to be locked.
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HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Kjas wrote: | Apart from the obvious reasons of these types of threads being locked for personal attacks, implications and other unsavoury things, I largely think the reason these threads aren't taken seriously is due to two other main factors.
One is the intellectualization of xenophobia (which I am going to leave alone). |
Which is a shame, as this should be a serious issue. It's a shame that actual research into this subject is a taboo in the academic world. The situation won't change if you don't research it. It'll simply happen under your radar, or be a public secret that shouldn't be discussed but is implied several times a day in casual discussions - "your bicycle was stolen? Let me guess - a young man, Moroccan or Antillean?" That was considered racist and vile until it turned out over half of the people in those categories (Moroccan young men, 65% and Antillean young men, 55%) had actually been held by police, often for crimes more serious than theft.
| Kjas wrote: | | The second reason which some of us could actually do something about is not just discussing ideology and immigration. Not to say they don't have their place, but when you focus exclusively on these two factors to the exclusion of all else, it comes across the wrong way. (as a muslim or immigrantion bash fest rather than an actual discussion with an aim and point) |
The aim of this discussion is simply to discuss. Why are we paying for people who have clearly stated they want to destroy our society from the inside out? Why was Geert Wilders accused of hatemongering in court, but are these people protected by police and given the right to stand right next to a monument for freedom and war victims and say we should abolish democracy, become a theocracy and kill those who don't agree with it, with an explicit mention of the man accused of those crimes?
| Kjas wrote: | | If other things were included and considered at least somewhat in depth, like the state of these immigrants home countries and what lead to those situations to begin with, that would help greatly. |
One of the fine gentlemen in the first video used to be a drug trafficker in Morocco, was sentenced to several years in jail in absentia there, but given a passport nonetheless. The man who killed Theo van Gogh was born here, worked at a community center until his adherence to Sharia law became a problem in his functioning (he refused to help women and wouldn't serve alcohol), started becoming even more fundamentalist and killed Theo van Gogh 'because he deserved capital punishment for insulting the prophet'. The man who speaks English in the first video is an international islamist preacher. These people aren't your average poor, misguided sheep.
| Kjas wrote: | | As would it help if people here considered that crime, gangs and other such things are very much intertwined with poverty. Nobody here has addressed the poverty issue, I certainly know when specific minority groups have managed to do well economically for themselves, or at least are self-sustainable, many of the issues relating to crime, gangs and unrest are no longer a problem. |
However, it seems to be mostly a cultural thing. Chinese people, starting from the second generation, were almost identical to ethnic Dutch people in terms of income, education and crime statistics. Moroccans have now reached the fourth or fifth generation, and they're still the most problematic, most criminal and most conservative group in society. Meanwhile, they're often treated better than anyone else, which hasn't helped in the past fifty years.
| Kjas wrote: | | If you guys branch out and start acknowledging the other contributing factors to this, it will be more of a discussion and less of a bash fest, and therefore the threads will be less likely to be locked. |
If we close our eyes to facts, ignore statistics, use popular opinion from Australia and North America as a substitute and completely fail to acknowledge the absolute fact that there are causal links between cultures and ethnicities and their success in society, we're able to discuss it? That sounds like the attitude that has allowed the problem to spin violently out of control in the past fifty years. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26039
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| HisDivineMajesty wrote: | | use popular opinion from Australia and North America as a substitute. |
Who, by and large, absolutely do not face the same problems as we in Europe do. If they did, one suspects that their opinions would radically change. Odd, that. |
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Kjas
Onçinha
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 4879
Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Teq, here there is unashamed racism and xenophobia. So much so that it influences elections quite heavily. The attitude here is not "free for all" it's usually "stop the boats" by a large percentage of the population.
I am the last person who would ask you to ignore statistics and facts, and I have no problem with you guys discussing these things, it's just the way you choose to go about it. (if comes off badly even if you don't mean it that way)
That is, if you focus solely on one or two things to the exclusion of all else, it sounds xenophobic even if you aren't and it isn't meant to be. (A mistake I made in the past while trying to discuss similar issues)
I have noticed that the south east asian communities here by and large have done very well for themselves. Maybe it's the fact that their culture really has an emphasis on education and business? Having said that, they don't usually come into the country dirt poor either.
There are many casual links and as you mentioned, if by the 3rd or 5th generation, then absolutely it's right to be asking questions, but I haven't seen you present anything else yet that count account for it.
If it is purely cultural, you should be able to find similar statistics for people of that origin that have resettled elsewhere outside of Europe.
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Last edited by Kjas on Sat May 26, 2012 11:22 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| HisDivineMajesty wrote: | | It'll simply happen under your radar, or be a public secret that shouldn't be discussed but is implied several times a day in casual discussions - "your bicycle was stolen? Let me guess - a young man, Moroccan or Antillean?" That was considered racist and vile until it turned out over half of the people in those categories (Moroccan young men, 65% and Antillean young men, 55%) had actually been held by police, often for crimes more serious than theft. |
Here's the problem: you really need to have a clearly-defined thesis, or else it can sound as if you are might just be covering for more nefarious motives such as racism.
Which of the following are you saying:
| Quote: | | People from certain countries are bad immigrants because they tend to commit crimes such as theft and rape. |
| Quote: | | Muslims are bad immigrants because they tend to commit crimes such as theft and rape. |
| Quote: | | Muslims are bad immigrants because they want to overthrow the state and replace it with sharia. |
There is quite a difference between committing crimes such as theft and rape, and wanting to overthrow the state and replace it with sharia. In fact, it seems like they could be considered complete opposites! After all, sharia has more severe punishments for such crimes than modern Western law does. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26039
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | After all, sharia has more severe punishments for such crimes than modern Western law does. |
On paper only. |
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HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Right. Because the proverbial other camp seems to be suffering from severe misunderstanding, here are my views and reasoning.
My opinion: I'm not half as racist as the people saying I'm racist.
My reasoning: I didn't bring up the issue of race. What I'm consistently bringing up, though, is culture, religion and common pragmatism. For example, in the case of withdrawing food aid, I'm saying these people should have incentives to stop growing their population ad infinitum while they're not even producing half the food they need. Did I mention Africa? It happens to be the only place in the world where that's true on such a large scale, but they have a different skin colour than me, so the real racists assume I'm racist for saying they need to control their birth rates if they ever want to break out of the yearly cycle of famine, food aid, population growth and more famine.
My opinion: Immigrants in Europe who are part of islamic religious groups are a group with a greatly-increased risk of a lot of bad things.
My reasoning: Moroccans import illiterate brides and conservative husbands from Morocco for their sons and daughters - often family members. Their offspring is known for being genetically set for having a disproportionate amount of mental and physical disorders. Their cultures are exceedingly group-bound, and people who break that tradition are at risk. A Moroccan woman was beaten so badly she had a miscarriage for dating a man who wasn't ethnically Moroccan.
Meanwhile, reports of honour killings and informal sharia courts in some European countries have emerged. Because these groups are so closed, often have their own schools, mosques and sometimes even medical clinics, watching out for dangerous developments is hard. The man who murdered a film maker for insulting Muhammed was linked to an isolationist mosque that couldn't be properly investigated until after the murder.
There is certainly some anti-democratic sentiment within large portions of several muslim populations in western Europe (Moroccans, Turks, Somalians, Iraqis, Iranians and Pakistanis). Because a lot of them, especially the young ones, completely reject western values which oppose their tight-knit group values, they're not likely to listen to that system or respect it in any way. They care more for the approval of their peers, it's been said, than they do about spending months (yes, it's that lenient) in jail for rape or purposely inflicting physical injury.
My opinion: Some cultural or ethnic groups are much more likely to be involved in crime or welfare.
My reasoning: It's the plain truth. There is no way of denying it - those are the facts, those are the figures. Moroccan young men, closely followed by Antillean young men, are exceedingly over-represented in crime and welfare.
My opinion: A political and social taboo on researching these issues has only recently been cracked open.
My reasoning: There was an article in a newspaper a few days ago. It explained how research that didn't support the idea that all cultures were equal, everyone was equally capable, problems were the result of poverty and genetic differences were only phenotypical was categorically refused funding, censored and the authors were disciplined or rejected in academic circles.
However, after some political wake-up calls (two high-profile murders and several riots in a few years), the taboo has been lifted slightly, and all results from research since then has indicated that there are differences in cultures that have a causal link with crime, welfare and rejection of democracy and western values, and that some cultural and religious groups have simply had much more of a deep-rooted conflict with our society.
It's 5 am and the sun is rising. I'll be off to bed. Goodnight - I hope this thread is still open and going when I return. |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1320
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 1:39 am Post subject: |
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In NA some refer to Europe already as Eurabia. I have seen that many times.
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HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Eurabia is a bit of an exaggeration - these people can't even get together a coherent story, instead ranting, issuing death threats and occasionally murdering people, but there certainly are problems that have causal links with islam and cultures of the Maghreb, Anatolia, the Antilles and Suriname. |
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HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently, Al-Shabaab has a branch in the Netherlands and several other European countries (including the United Kingdom). That's what a defected commander in Somalia said. They're preparing suicide bombings after a training stay in Somalia where they helped Al-Shabaab. Two years ago, some of them were arrested here for preparing for a bombing that was set for Christmas eve. They were released without an investigation.
In Britain, the amount of people who worked for Al-Shabaab in Somalia is estimated to be around a hundred.
Edit below: Here's another video by these gentlemen. It's embedded in the page. In English, for your amusement.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/s/12223353 |
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edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | I have probably had 4 or 5 locked threads, I have never bitched about it, people need to harden up |
Too true. |
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HisDivineMajesty
Carolingian Emperor Extraordinaire
Joined: Feb 01, 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Such a reason to respond. I'm not really complaining about it, even though it's clear that opinions are put above facts here, but I've made a note to myself that I can't argue for something that negatively impacts people with a different skin colour than mine, as it supposedly makes me a racist. That's the kind of social taboo that rests on criticizing people who happen not to be members of my ethnic group. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
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Age: 24
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Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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My threads got locked because I broke a rule somewhere. So did yours and others. Its not a big conspiracy
I wonder now if some people post threads knowing they will be locked just to prove a point (the mods enforce the TOS??)
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Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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Kjas
Onçinha
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 4879
Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| HisDivineMajesty wrote: | | Such a reason to respond. I'm not really complaining about it, even though it's clear that opinions are put above facts here, but I've made a note to myself that I can't argue for something that negatively impacts people with a different skin colour than mine, as it supposedly makes me a racist. That's the kind of social taboo that rests on criticizing people who happen not to be members of my ethnic group. |
I frankly have given you the benefit of the doubt and have not assumed you are a racist.
I asked before to find similar statistics for people of that origin that have resettled elsewhere outside of Europe, thus as a way to prove your claim but you have presented no such evidence.
You want to work with stats and I'm all for that, so let's see some.
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Cornflake
Rattles when shaken
Joined: Oct 31, 2010
Posts: 30361
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| DC wrote: | Oh look, here comes Hyperlexian to lock the thread and spank you for daring to be a European saying that an experiment with unlimited immigration has failed disastrously in your own country.
Isn't it great being lectured to by a holier than thou Canadian that has never even visited your country?
Isn't it great being bullied by someone whose country has a positively xenophobic immigration policy by comparison?
Better just shut up and watch your country and culture be destroyed, after all, if you don't you might upset a Canadian. |
This thread is being locked for the following reason:
| WP rules wrote: | The following activities are unacceptable on WrongPlanet:
2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not. |
Link to WP rules: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt73833.html
Beyond that, I am not going to comment on the main content of this thread.
I will just say that sometimes, I am ashamed to be associated with some of the posters here.
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