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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9246
Location: Western Michigan
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 Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | Back to Islam: Here you have a religion  that condones (and in some countries actually DOES) whipping of women and killing of gays for excercising rights that you all claim to beleive so strongly in.
I find it a bit ironic how you all can screech so loudly about how mean and intolerant the tea party and republicans are on one hand yet bend over backwards to protect the "rights of a religion that openly preaches and condones hate and intolerance. |
What the hell does opposing the US's unprovoked invasion of Iraq have to do with defending Islam? I would oppose such a war regardless of what religion Iraqi's happened to follow.
That you are so quick to focus on the fact that Iraq is Muslim is disturbing. You think the lives of Muslims are more expendable because they are so backwards right? Well, what if someone decided American lives were expendable because our country is backwards? What do you think we should do about all those mean and intolerant Muslims? Declare war on all Muslim countries and throw all American Muslims into internment camps? Do you think that will cause followers of Islam to embrace tolerance and secular democracy? |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12794
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | Again, I'm defending the rights of Americans of the Muslim faith who have been derided as unpatriotic and potential terrorists, not the reprehensible behavior of those Islamic believers who are mostly overseas.
And while you may not have ever heard of Ayn Rand prior to coming to WP, that's hardly the case for rabid Republican activists who are threatening the soul of their party.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
| Quote: | | Again, I'm defending the rights of Americans of the Muslim faith who have been derided as unpatriotic and potential terrorists, not the reprehensible behavior of those Islamic believers who are mostly overseas. |
By that same token do you defend the rights of the KKK and Aryan Nations? I mean, they condone the same kind of conduct and violation of human rights. Big difference being that the Islamics have several middle eastern countries to practice it in wholesale. Hell, the white supremacy side of the house hasn't had a playground like that since the 3rd reich.
| Quote: | | And while you may not have ever heard of Ayn Rand prior to coming to WP, that's hardly the case for rabid Republican activists who are threatening the soul of their party. |
Yes, but according to you and yours here I'M a rabid republican.
Of course, given the source I take it as a compliment and always will............... |
Hate groups are one thing, religious affiliation are another. Not every Muslim American - in fact, very few - take part in violating anyone else' rights, but have been assimilated into mainstream American society. It's the heart of bigotry to assume that these citizens are opposed to everything we hold dear simply for sharing the religion of our enemies. By the way, George W. Bush agrees with me.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Oh, so a group has to be officially christened a hate group by the American Criminal Liberties Union.
Gee, I put a lot of stock in that.......NOT!
I'm getting bored with this so whatever........... |
Well, them and the Southern Poverty Law Center.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12794
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | Again, I'm defending the rights of Americans of the Muslim faith who have been derided as unpatriotic and potential terrorists, not the reprehensible behavior of those Islamic believers who are mostly overseas.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I would not be so sure.
There are American born Muslim sympathizers to al Queda
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKiB32IAUsM
ruveyn |
A whole 7%!
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All it takes to blow up a plane is 1.
No, I don't think most American Muslims are terrorists, but I would not rely on them to inform the police if they knew about a terrorist plot. Do you know what I missed?. It was the million American Muslim march against Jihadi Terrorists shortly after 9/11. Perhaps I was asleep and missed it.
ruveyn |
How do you know they wouldn't inform on terrorists?
And why should Muslim Americans have to prove their loyalty by protesting Jihadism? That's like saying that all Jewish Americans had to show their loyalty and protest Israel when that Jewish American turncoat Pollard had sold us out by selling intelligence to Israel.
And no, I don't expect American Jews to prove their loyalty.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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heavenlyabyss
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Better to err on the side of caution. Naturally, most Americans were fearful of Muslims and foreigners after 9/11 so naturally there will be a counter-revolt against. It is only natural. It is about balance. One must strike a knife in the heart of a ghost at times.
I knew a Muslim in highschool. He was pretty cool. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29338
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| heavenlyabyss wrote: |
I knew a Muslim in highschool. He was pretty cool. |
I knew a Muslim in high school. He hated Jews.
ruveyn |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12794
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | heavenlyabyss wrote: |
I knew a Muslim in highschool. He was pretty cool. |
I knew a Muslim in high school. He hated Jews.
ruveyn |
I know a former Mennonite who had married into Lutheranism who, despite having almost the same economic and political ideals as yours, is a raging Antisemite and Holocaust denier. I have to think, though, that not all Mennonites have this guy's idiotic notions.
And thus, not every Muslim American is a Jew hater like your "friend."
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4516
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | Back to Islam: Here you have a religion that condones (and in some countries actually DOES) whipping of women and killing of gays for excercising rights that you all claim to beleive so strongly in.
I find it a bit ironic how you all can screech so loudly about how mean and intolerant the tea party and republicans are on one hand yet bend over backwards to protect the "rights of a religion that openly preaches and condones hate and intolerance. |
What the hell does opposing the US's unprovoked invasion of Iraq have to do with defending Islam? I would oppose such a war regardless of what religion Iraqi's happened to follow.
That you are so quick to focus on the fact that Iraq is Muslim is disturbing. You think the lives of Muslims are more expendable because they are so backwards right? Well, what if someone decided American lives were expendable because our country is backwards? What do you think we should do about all those mean and intolerant Muslims? Declare war on all Muslim countries and throw all American Muslims into internment camps? Do you think that will cause followers of Islam to embrace tolerance and secular democracy? |
| Quote: | | What the hell does opposing the US's unprovoked invasion of Iraq have to do with defending Islam? |
Not everyone has swallowed the convenient story about the invasion of Iraq being un-provoked. We should have waited for Iraq to actually use their WMD's and use that for justification to invade.
| Quote: | | I would oppose such a war regardless of what religion Iraqi's happened to follow. |
Uh huh...........
| Quote: | | That you are so quick to focus on the fact that Iraq is Muslim is disturbing. |
Two "events" that occurred at the WTC in 1993 and 2001, especially the one in 2001.
Bombing of the USMC and French Airborne barracks in Beirut in 1983.
USS Cole in Yemen in 2000.
US military quarters in Dhahran in 1996.
There's a few but do you need more examples of Islamic handiwork? That's what I find "disturbing".
| Quote: | | You think the lives of Muslims are more expendable because they are so backwards right? |
You just admitted that they are backwards.
| Quote: | | Well, what if someone decided American lives were expendable because our country is backwards? |
Apparently a lot of them, especially in the Arab world, think we are expendable and backwards, hence the attacks they are so bent on. Thankfully we have a military, no thanks to the American left, to provide us with some safeguarding whether you appreciate it or not. And since I know you or one of yours is going to accuse it; yes, sometimes that safeguarding means taking off the gloves and getting mean.
| Quote: | | What do you think we should do about all those mean and intolerant Muslims? Declare war on all Muslim countries and throw all American Muslims into internment camps? |
If declaring war on them is what it takes then YES. They've pretty much done that to us doncha think? Interment camps for American Muslims would be a violation of their rights as Americans so, no, I would never advocate that unless they as a whole became an obvious threat to society and/or national security and I doubt they would. On the other hand, the ones who are not American citizens, certain cases being exceptions, I would have no reservations about containing them to await deportation, period.
| Quote: | | Do you think that will cause followers of Islam to embrace tolerance and secular democracy? |
As it stands we (including ME) are much more tolerant of them than they are of us. They NEVER will accept us so I won't wait on what's not going to happen. The fact that this is not crystal clear to you is whats disturbing.
Next...... |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12794
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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You can name off Middle Eastern terrorist attacks all you want, but that doesn't indict all Muslims.
And as far as Iraq having WMD's is concerned, this charge only came about because the alleged connection between Saddam and Bin Laden was thoroughly proven to be false. In this case, the WMD charge just looks like what it is - a standby pretext for an overeager administration to declare war.
And incidentally, while awaiting trial, Saddam Hussein had been asked by the Arab American FBI agent assigned to him if he (Saddam) had had any WMD's. Saddam answered, no, but he would have built them again had he had the chance. Straight from the horses mouth. This particular agent believed he was telling the truth.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29338
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | You can name off Middle Eastern terrorist attacks all you want, but that doesn't indict all Muslims.
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Of course not. The other Muslims are too busy looking in the other direction.
Question: If one of these "moderate" Muslims hears about a plot to do damage, will they phone the police or the FBI? I am not certain they would. And their young male sons. With their youthful hormones raging and their youthful idealism. How many of them are susceptable to the Jihadi Imam at the local mosque? And the converts? Ah yes, the converts. Remember John Walker? I haven't forgotten. And the Muslim officer who shot up has regiment? I suppose that doesn't indict anyone either.
ruveyn |
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Lord_Gareth
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | You can name off Middle Eastern terrorist attacks all you want, but that doesn't indict all Muslims.
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Of course not. The other Muslims are too busy looking in the other direction.
Question: If one of these "moderate" Muslims hears about a plot to do damage, will they phone the police or the FBI? I am not certain they would. And their young male sons. With their youthful hormones raging and their youthful idealism. How many of them are susceptable to the Jihadi Imam at the local mosque? And the converts? Ah yes, the converts. Remember John Walker? I haven't forgotten. And the Muslim officer who shot up has regiment? I suppose that doesn't indict anyone either.
ruveyn |
Do abortion clinic bombers indict all Christians?
_________________
Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I." |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29338
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Lord_Gareth wrote: | [
Do abortion clinic bombers indict all Christians? |
Only the hot for Jesus fundies.
However sane Christians will turn in clinic bombers to the police if they know about.
I am not as sure the moderate Muslims would do the same.
ruveyn |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12794
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | You can name off Middle Eastern terrorist attacks all you want, but that doesn't indict all Muslims.
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Of course not. The other Muslims are too busy looking in the other direction.
Question: If one of these "moderate" Muslims hears about a plot to do damage, will they phone the police or the FBI? I am not certain they would. And their young male sons. With their youthful hormones raging and their youthful idealism. How many of them are susceptable to the Jihadi Imam at the local mosque? And the converts? Ah yes, the converts. Remember John Walker? I haven't forgotten. And the Muslim officer who shot up has regiment? I suppose that doesn't indict anyone either.
ruveyn |
And you know this for sure, how?
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4516
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | You can name off Middle Eastern terrorist attacks all you want, but that doesn't indict all Muslims.
And as far as Iraq having WMD's is concerned, this charge only came about because the alleged connection between Saddam and Bin Laden was thoroughly proven to be false. In this case, the WMD charge just looks like what it is - a standby pretext for an overeager administration to declare war.
And incidentally, while awaiting trial, Saddam Hussein had been asked by the Arab American FBI agent assigned to him if he (Saddam) had had any WMD's. Saddam answered, no, but he would have built them again had he had the chance. Straight from the horses mouth. This particular agent believed he was telling the truth.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I've already done my research on the Iraq/WMD issue and came to my conclusions. Those conclusions my not be in vogue at the time but they are still accurate none the less and to me historical facts, period. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29338
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: |
And you know this for sure, how?
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Very little is known "for sure". As I said I have my doubts.
I think it was the lack of the Million American Muslim March Against Terrorism that left me less than certain. Perhaps there was such a march, and perhaps I missed it. I heard very little (if any) condemnation of the outrage of 9/11 from the American Muslim Community and on that day there were several New York Cab drivers of Jordanian and Lebanese persuasion doing a happy dance in Manhattan. When I read about that I get rather annoyed (to put it mildly). A lot of the cabbies in New York City are from the middle east.
Then there was Hasan Akbar who was in the army and took an oath and he shot up his mates. That was in 2003. He was upset about the U.S. going into Iraq (poor baby). Then there was the Jihadi who shot up the CIA. How many more like that?
The 1993 attack against the WTC, the one that didn't bring them down was hatched in Newark New Jersey, not in Mecca or Cairo. I hope you can see there is a basis for my unease. Even so, I would protest any illegal action taken against American Muslims. Why? Because first it will be against Muslims. The Jews are next. For my own sake I would oppose and publicly protest any wrongful act taken against American Muslims just because they are Muslims. But they still give me the creeps. I don't trust them.
ruveyn |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12794
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
And you know this for sure, how?
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Very little is known "for sure". As I said I have my doubts.
I think it was the lack of the Million American Muslim March Against Terrorism that left me less than certain. Perhaps there was such a march, and perhaps I missed it. I heard very little (if any) condemnation of the outrage of 9/11 from the American Muslim Community and on that day there were several New York Cab drivers of Jordanian and Lebanese persuasion doing a happy dance in Manhattan. When I read about that I get rather annoyed (to put it mildly). A lot of the cabbies in New York City are from the middle east.
Then there was Hasan Akbar who was in the army and took an oath and he shot up his mates. That was in 2003. He was upset about the U.S. going into Iraq (poor baby). Then there was the Jihadi who shot up the CIA. How many more like that?
The 1993 attack against the WTC, the one that didn't bring them down was hatched in Newark New Jersey, not in Mecca or Cairo. I hope you can see there is a basis for my unease. Even so, I would protest any illegal action taken against American Muslims. Why? Because first it will be against Muslims. The Jews are next. For my own sake I would oppose and publicly protest any wrongful act taken against American Muslims just because they are Muslims. But they still give me the creeps. I don't trust them.
ruveyn |
Admittedly, I had never heard about those dicks doing a happy dance on 9/11. Maybe those individuals would like to return to their countries of origin. I do know about those other two jackasses who had committed act of violence in the name of their religion. Luckily, that doesn't mean all Muslim Americans are of that fiber.
At least you have conceded it's wrong to take any action against Muslim Americans as a group, and that's a start.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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