ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29318
Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| xenon13 wrote: | | Von Mises was not attacking libertarianism... he simply said that freedom for most people is a very bad thing and they should be kept in their places. Women especially. The limiting of government, he reasoned, is required to that end. Von Mises is one of the tin gods of libertarianism, isn't he. Libertarians really don't want freedom for most people, only for the tiny elite on top who have the sacred right to a free lunch taken from the rest. |
Wrong! They want as small a government as is consistent with peace and order in the society.
Government is not Good. It is just Less Bad than some other alternatives.
There never ever ever has been a Good Government. There have been Less Bad Governments and then only for a limited period of time until they too, became tyrannies. Government is an admission of irredeemable sin of the human race.
ruveyn |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9218
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | xenon13 wrote: | | Libertarians are really opposed to freedom. According to von Mises, government was serving to give people choices that they did not have before and that this new freedom is something to him that was unacceptable, the so-called natural constraints must be kept on for the vast majority of people who must be forced into a life of very little choices subject to the whims of a small elite who have the right to a free lunch at their expense. |
Libertarians ideologically oppose taxation and government regulation and grudging concede very little when government becomes a necessary evil. Libertarians regard government as a Bad Thing to be tolerated only when No Government is a worse thing.
And kindly quote book, page and verse where von Mises knocks the libertarian idea.l I want to see it from his pen, not your assertions which I do not accept at face value.
ruveyn |
Yet you guys still need government to do the dirty work of protecting the haves from the desperate and starving have nots. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9218
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | xenon13 wrote: | | Von Mises was not attacking libertarianism... he simply said that freedom for most people is a very bad thing and they should be kept in their places. Women especially. The limiting of government, he reasoned, is required to that end. Von Mises is one of the tin gods of libertarianism, isn't he. Libertarians really don't want freedom for most people, only for the tiny elite on top who have the sacred right to a free lunch taken from the rest. |
Wrong! They want as small a government as is consistent with peace and order in the society.
Government is not Good. It is just Less Bad than some other alternatives.
There never ever ever has been a Good Government. There have been Less Bad Governments and then only for a limited period of time until they too, became tyrannies. Government is an admission of irredeemable sin of the human race.
ruveyn |
Government is only as good or evil as the society that creates it.
I'd also say the type of laissez-faire capitalism Von Mises fanboys yearn for is not consistent with peace and order. The brutal excesses of 19th century industrial capitalism are what fueled working class discontent and lead to the flourishing of extremist anti-capitalist ideology. Extremism on one side of the ideological spectrum breeds an equal and opposite extremism on the other side. It's a recipe for anger and conflict. |
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xenon13
Phoenix
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Joined: Dec 14, 2008
Posts: 3075
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Neoliberals and their classical liberal forebears always understood that laissez faire capitalism requires a police state to keep the victims under control. As Thomas Friedman put it, the "invisible hand requires the iron fist". Some libertarians get this, others do not. |
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Rainy
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 24, 2012
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| As bad as the government tends to be, the people it rules over really aren't any better. |
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Oldout
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 10, 2012
Posts: 1539
Location: Reading, PA
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| I am fascinated every time I read a thread about the good or evil of government and how it is a reflection of the people who make that government. I prefer to think of "organizations" -- government, corporations, clubs, NGOs, churches, etc. What one discovers is that mankind always manages to corrupt/abuse these entities once they are established. Which begs that famous Rodney King quote, "Can't we all just get along ?" That does seem to be a paramount question. |
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b9
whatever..
Joined: Aug 15, 2008
Posts: 8369
Location: australia
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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sorry i am not in the "loop" and i have read no replies, and i am simply replying to the topic title.
"freedom" is the ability to choose between more than one option.
"freedom" is a tenuous concept (in my opinion (i had to add that disclaimer (as i have learned))).
"freedom" may be as basic as being able to choose whether you are executed by lethal injection, or by a firing squad.
"freedom" (in my opinion (groan)) is the ability to have at least 2 choices to decide between.
beyond that, "freedom" means not much.
one is only free to choose their "course" through a concrete set of immovable obstacles, and the constraints on freedom more define "freedom" than the emancipating aspects of it.
one is free to urinate at one's will provided one is in a situation where that will not incur a societal penalty.
one is free to say "flangastopothiliad!" at the top of ones voice in a quiet street.
whether or not productive things stem from ones freedom of decision between constrained options, it remains true that free will is only possible within the cracks (or voids) of solid reality.
free will is a quantum concept really when i think about it |
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JWC
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 01, 2011
Posts: 740
Location: Macondo Wellhead
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Freedom, in a political context, means freedom from government coercion. It does not mean freedom from the landlord, or freedom from the employer, or freedom from the laws of nature which do not provide men with automatic prosperity. It means freedom from the coercive power of the state—and nothing else. |
From some article I read, titled "Conservatism: An Obituary". |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9218
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| xenon13 wrote: | | Neoliberals and their classical liberal forebears always understood that laissez faire capitalism requires a police state to keep the victims under control. As Thomas Friedman put it, the "invisible hand requires the iron fist". Some libertarians get this, others do not. |
Pinochet and all Latin American right wingers understood this. Rather than attempt to solve matters democratically, both right and left resorted to violence and oppression. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14833
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I think this is why we simply aim for what works out best. It's all a bit vacuous when you look at it at that level, thus utilitarian outcome becomes the default. |
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xenon13
Phoenix
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Joined: Dec 14, 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| People should know that the Irish Potato Famine was caused by the coming to power of a classical liberal dogmatist regime in London under the leadership of John Russell. It was part of the laissez faire experiment. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9218
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| xenon13 wrote: | | People should know that the Irish Potato Famine was caused by the coming to power of a classical liberal dogmatist regime in London under the leadership of John Russell. It was part of the laissez faire experiment. |
I can't help but consider the so-called "Irish Potato Famine" disaster as anything less than an act of genocide carried out by wealthy landlords with the backing of the English government.
Attempts to blame the event entirely on natural causes is as much a kind of whitewashing and grotesque coverup as what happened in China under Mao. I just don't buy the notion that people can always be held less culpable for actions that cause mass death and suffering indirectly rather than directly if the result is the same. |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1320
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | Slave how is freedom slavery if freedom is slavery then african americans are still enslaved? |
If you are free, then refrain from paying taxes.
If you do you will find out the level of freedom you actually have (ie. none)
You are 'free' if you comply. Is that your definition of freedom?
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29318
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| slave wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Slave how is freedom slavery if freedom is slavery then african americans are still enslaved? |
If you are free, then refrain from paying taxes.
If you do you will find out the level of freedom you actually have (ie. none)
You are 'free' if you comply. Is that your definition of freedom? |
You are right about the taxes. But we can choose our trades and professions. We can choose the people we associate with. And we can pretty well say whatever it is we want to say. That is some freedom.
In any nation governed by law freedom is not absolute. It is limited and constrained in very real and substantial say. But freedom of conscience, freedom to think what one will does count for something.
Absolute and total freedom never really existed anywhere and at any time. We are still bound by the physical limits and constraints of the natural world and in the end we die. So at best we can enjoy some sort of partial freedom.
ruveyn |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12771
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | slave wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Slave how is freedom slavery if freedom is slavery then african americans are still enslaved? |
If you are free, then refrain from paying taxes.
If you do you will find out the level of freedom you actually have (ie. none)
You are 'free' if you comply. Is that your definition of freedom? |
You are right about the taxes. But we can choose our trades and professions. We can choose the people we associate with. And we can pretty well say whatever it is we want to say. That is some freedom.
In any nation governed by law freedom is not absolute. It is limited and constrained in very real and substantial say. But freedom of conscience, freedom to think what one will does count for something.
Absolute and total freedom never really existed anywhere and at any time. We are still bound by the physical limits and constraints of the natural world and in the end we die. So at best we can enjoy some sort of partial freedom.
ruveyn |
Hold it, hold it, hold it! I recall you telling me you weren't going to die! 
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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