paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1299
Location: Italy
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 Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| alba wrote: | 3 substitutes
1. the sun
the sun has always given me more joy, energy, peace and contentment than people ever could
2. the ocean
the ocean is thrilling and delightful, as well as the creatures that live there
3. nature in general
non-verbal communication with nature; i feel it's a 2-way exchange, nurturing and completely satisfying |
I agree and I think we are wired to meet people and nature with pleasure and joy, even a thick rain and snow and wind. If we are miswired for meeting people, we find more joy in nature.
I know "normal" people who don't find any pleasure in nature. I don't know what's wrong with them. |
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peterd
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 26, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 1171
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Trees make up for a lot. Birds too - except when they crap on you. |
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paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1299
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Books, music, arts? Once I was a great reader. But now? Fiction represents possible ways to live, if it is not ersatz, a surrogate of life, the same way that playing is, for cubs, a way to live adult doings, or to exercize in adult actions (chasing, fighting). Now (at least for me) it's no more time for that. I need to explore the meaning of life, if there is still a chance for that. And a an animal, or a tree, or a flower are of more help. |
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LabPet
alchemist
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 4034
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| paolo wrote: | | Books, music, arts? Once I was a great reader. But now? Fiction represents possible ways to live, if it is not ersatz, a surrogate of life, the same way that playing is, for cubs, a way to live adult doings, or to exercize in adult actions (chasing, fighting). Now (at least for me) it's no more time for that. I need to explore the meaning of life, if there is still a chance for that. And a an animal, or a tree, or a flower are of more help. |
For Neurotypicals, perhaps they experience Epicurianism - speculative, but based upon observation.
For an Autist? My senses are at once overwhelming and intoxicating by stimuli. Paolo, yes - and the Neurotransmitter that gives this 'feeling' (unsure of descriptive word) is Oxytocin, the molecule of love. Oxytocin is released in quantity by stimming as well; not a coincidence!
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"Barn's burnt down, now I can see the moon." - Masahide, circa 1700. Haiku poetry. |
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ThatRedHairedGrrl
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Joined: May 11, 2008
Posts: 1013
Location: Walking through a shopping mall listening to Half Japanese on headphones
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| LabPet wrote: | | Paolo, yes - and the Neurotransmitter that gives this 'feeling' (unsure of descriptive word) is Oxytocin, the molecule of love. Oxytocin is released in quantity by stimming as well; not a coincidence! |
I recall reading somewhere (it was elsewhere, but I think Daniel Levitin has written about it in his books) that music triggers an oxytocin 'rush'. Makes sense, because music gives me that sense of connection.
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"Grunge? Isn't that some gross shade of greenish orange?" |
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paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1299
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Another solution to social void, is obliquity in relationships. That's what we do here in WP all the time. We can speak frankly as it would not be allowed in a face-to-face relationship. Very rarely (and I regret that) these exchanges add up to an engaging relationship. This is what happens with many writers of fiction. It's the case, to cite someone, of Patricia Highsmith. She never established a durable bond with humans, but only with cats and (in her mind) with snails. I don't know how she communicated with snails, but, when I was a child I took frogs with me in bed. They were probably not very happy. Anyhow Patricia confessed herself in her books, and the reading public was the addressee. Another example is Kafka. His epistolaries were a collection of falsities and a desperate exchange of misunderstandings which led nowhere (Felice Bauer, Milena). He told the truth only in his fiction. And the fact that, after his death, he received acclaim means that someone (many people) understood what he wanted to tell. He had millions of soul mates.
More modestly I have a large network of persons who know me and whom I know as shopkeepers and admirers of my little dog which is very important for me and give me a little fresh air to breath, even for a short time and without any verosimilitude of depth (for me these exchanges are much more important, I would say vital, than they are for them). Even cashiers of movie theatres, especially if they are females (I couldn't say why) are very important for me. It's a pathetic, kind of Walter Mitty business, but not very different from the exchanges between dogs in the streets, made of a little sniffing (front and behind) and wagging of tails.
Well, this reminds me that play is also important both for humans and dogs and nearly all mammals. It has some sort of obliquity, but also of deadly seriousness.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
--Samuel Beckett |
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MKDP
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 09, 2009
Posts: 148
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| paolo wrote: | Another solution to social void, is obliquity in relationships. That's what we do here in WP all the time. We can speak frankly as it would not be allowed in a face-to-face relationship. Very rarely (and I regret that) these exchanges add up to an engaging relationship. This is what happens with many writers of fiction. It's the case, to cite someone, of Patricia Highsmith. She never established a durable bond with humans, but only with cats and (in her mind) with snails. I don't know how she communicated with snails, but, when I was a child I took frogs with me in bed. They were probably not very happy. Anyhow Patricia confessed herself in her books, and the reading public was the addressee. Another example is Kafka. His epistolaries were a collection of falsities and a desperate exchange of misunderstandings which led nowhere (Felice Bauer, Milena). He told the truth only in his fiction. And the fact that, after his death, he received acclaim means that someone (many people) understood what he wanted to tell. He had millions of soul mates.
More modestly I have a large network of persons who know me and whom I know as shopkeepers and admirers of my little dog which is very important for me and give me a little fresh air to breath, even for a short time and without any verosimilitude of depth (for me these exchanges are much more important, I would say vital, than they are for them). Even cashiers of movie theatres, especially if they are females (I couldn't say why) are very important for me. It's a pathetic, kind of Walter Mitty business, but not very different from the exchanges between dogs in the streets, made of a little sniffing (front and behind) and wagging of tails.
Well, this reminds me that play is also important both for humans and dogs and nearly all mammals. It has some sort of obliquity, but also of deadly seriousness. |
I guess Aspies must just be waaayyy more higher functioning than those of us with autism. I really don't have the ability to understand literature like all these posts about it on this thread. It was a major downfall to my pretty stellar undergrad gpa when I had the misfortune of being talked into taking a literature class in the Honors Program. Just don't think this way, and so don't really have the comprehension for literature. I guess that is sad for me, although I am not really sure what I am missing. |
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MKDP
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 09, 2009
Posts: 148
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Substitutes for human bonds. |
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| paolo wrote: | These are random thoughts.
If you don’t succeed in establishing working relationships with the proximate other, job mate, school mate, relative etc. you may have some limited choices. You can use one or more of them to fill the emotional void, to make life somewhat meaningful.
You may choose to “love” a popular icon, Elvis Presley or Barack Obama or Diane Fossey or Rosa Luxemburg and enjoy with them their successes or suffer for their failures.
You may love animals. Communication with them appears, and at some extent is simplified, and less liable to interpretation. Interpretation of human messages of others may be hard work for ASD people. With a animals it is much more easy though on a more limited gamut of feelings.
Then you may try abstract ideas about humanity. You may find some meaning in the fight against injustice, poverty. This may also be a way to find some friends among faith mates. Though this route may be fraught with pitfalls.
I, you, may add something, |
People can conjecture and spin this question all they want and justify why relationships don't work for some, but for me, there really is no substitute to fill the emotional void of not having a deep emotionally connected relationship. Nothing else is really worth pursuing or of interest. But I am not one to make any intelligent comments today, since I woke up in the throes of extreme entire body pain syndromes for some unexplained reason I don't know. It doesn't occur that often to this extreme, but when it does, I am not fit to do anything until they clear. |
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MKDP
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 09, 2009
Posts: 148
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Coadunate wrote: | You can be very religious and talk to God.
You can play on-line role playing games.
You can talk to yourself.
But all these are very limited relationships. The question that has intrigued me most of all is that some people, and I’m not referring to AS or NT in particular, but some people inherently in general have less need for “human bonds” than others and some people have more. The question is what factor in the human psyche causes this difference of need for “human bonds” from one person to the other? What in particular makes people different in this way? |
None of the above suggestions are of interest to me. I don't have any answers what in the human psyche causes the need for human bonds. I really don't try to analyse it. I just know I have an extreme need for human bonds, but since no one ever wants to be the friend or significant other to a person with autism, I buried all my emotions and feelings in my personified autism horse -- until my doctor said something to me to transfer them to himself, and since then I have really been feeling extreme emotions and feelings unleashed from my horse. |
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MKDP
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 09, 2009
Posts: 148
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| alba wrote: | 3 substitutes
1. the sun
the sun has always given me more joy, energy, peace and contentment than people ever could
2. the ocean
the ocean is thrilling and delightful, as well as the creatures that live there
3. nature in general
non-verbal communication with nature; i feel it's a 2-way exchange, nurturing and completely satisfying |
None of these really work to fill the voide for me, either. |
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MKDP
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 09, 2009
Posts: 148
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| paolo wrote: | | Of course you may have a mix of all these: you may be an animalist and have two cats; you may have as your icon Diane Fossey. But what is more important? Probably your two cats. Animals are universes of meaning if you really try to find a respectful empathy for them. Humans are a cooperative living “machine” of some trillion of cells, some (the neurons) the same for all your life, some being replaced at different paces. But this complexity is reduced by cultural stereotypes. A human is a human is a human (paraphrasizing Gertrude Stein). It may appear simple. But it is not: With animals you can’t break them into simple stereotypes. They remain enigmatic representatives of Life (with a capital L) and perennial sources for inspiration never entirely decipherable. |
While it is true animals are easier to relate to for a spectrum person, and I should be one to talk having spent a lifetime relating to my animals and burying all my feelings and emotions in my personified autism horse, there is really no substitute for deeply connected human bonds. It is just that this is the one thing as a person with autism I can never seem to have in my life. Which really sucks. But I am not in a very good mood, since I am having extreme pain syndromes in every part of my body today and having a very difficult time coping with them. |
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ToughDiamond
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2008
Age: 60
Posts: 4751
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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I used to avidly follow the adventures of The Beatles, though once they'd gone I never really got affected by celebrities any more, not to that level anyway. I was practically living their lives.
I started messing about playing my own music, and matured into a fairly good musician - recording and performing, either alone or with other musicians has been a great comfort to me. I can even stand going to small parties if I know they want me to play; no need to worry too much about relating. I can always hope that they'll be able to relate to my music.
Animals - every so often one of the local cats adopts me, and I feel a bond with animals generally. How real that bond is, I don't know, but they seem to like me well enough. Plants as well, though not so strongly. I might have made a good farmer if I'd had put more energy into it.
Films - especially when shared with somebody else (I don't watch much on my own). It's a rare film that has no human interaction in it. Last one I really liked was "Skykids," which I watched with my wife - objectively it was a stupid film but somehow very believeable to me, easy to understand and I was completely absorbed in it, probably got sucked in because of the openng scenes with the kids standing up to bullies - I really relate to that! Then at the end when one of the kids has to admit to the other that he lives in a down-market flat, and other says "I don't care where you live!"
Fiction books as well - though it's been years since I had the time. I thought "Full Moon" by P.G.Wodehouse was brilliant, once I'd written down and memorised the names of the characters. Loads of "bright young things" forming relationships with each other, a clumsy one who has no confidence and keeps accidentally kicking over the cake stand, and and old guy who has no interest in anything except breeding fat pigs.
But for me there can be no substitute for human bonds. Admittedly I'm bad at the game, but somehow I can't quite let go of all hope. That social craving just won't let me be for good, I still feel acute loneliness. So I can't give up permanently, all I can do is to have long tea breaks. |
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Moondust
Phoenix
Joined: May 30, 2012
Age: 51
Posts: 1162
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Are you aware of how much better off you are than someone without human bonds and without a life partner? And of how much better you are at social relations than them? |
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ToughDiamond
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2008
Age: 60
Posts: 4751
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Moondust wrote: | | Are you aware of how much better off you are than someone without human bonds and without a life partner? And of how much better you are at social relations than them? |
Sadly, at the time I wrote that post (3 years ago), my wife was in the process of moving out, and I don't have a life partner.
I don't know why you think I'm better at social relations than them.
I know it could be worse for me. |
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Moondust
Phoenix
Joined: May 30, 2012
Age: 51
Posts: 1162
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ToughDiamond wrote: | | I don't know why you think I'm better at social relations than them. |
Goodness, I can't believe I wrote that exactly on the 3rd anniversary of your post, 2-day difference. I'm sorry I bumped this thread. Please disregard my comment, it's just that I see so many people on WP saying they suffer from massive rejection, I wouldn't consider myself massively rejected if I had a life partner.
Last edited by Moondust on Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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