LennytheWicked
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 516
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| androbot2084 wrote: | | I think communism fails because people are forced into it. If it was a voluntary choice there would be no greedy people in the system. |
Not true. China's revolution was largely supported by the young and poor, and they did indeed want communism. But some of the people put in charge were unorganized or greedy, and greedy leads to corrupt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
androbot2084
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
Posts: 3091
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| But in China not everyone was given a choice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
dalurker
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 14, 2008
Posts: 514
Location: NY
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LennytheWicked wrote: | | dalurker wrote: | | LennytheWicked wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | androbot2084 wrote: | | So why do geniuses need to be cured? |
We're not all geniuses, I regard myself as intelligent but not that intelligent. |
Agreed. According to my IQ score I am...but if I'm a genius I fear for humanity. |
Why not let someone else be a genius? Someone with ambition and concern for real problems. Many would love to be a genius. |
Don't be an as*hole. |
When you stop being one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| androbot2084 wrote: | The last peaceful revolution was during the 1960's. There were of course some random acts of violence but there never was a call for a violent civil war but rather peaceful protests. What resulted was a backlash. Moderate Republicans who held most of the political power were replaced by radical ultra-conservative Republicans who sought to destroy all forms of welfare and taught that war is the solution to all of our international problems.
The fact that there was this backlash meant the powers to be were very threatened and felt that they had to abandon mainstream politics in favor of fringe far right politicians. |
Typically it is those who try starting such things that end up taking the most risk though...at least I assume since the government and so called wealthy elite don't like threats to their power no matter how peaceful. Then again I don't really have much to really live for anyways so maybe  someone similar to me that's a little bit more confident and doesn't get anxious as easily would be the perfect one for the job. And of course I would not be opposed to participating in such a thing 
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
|
| Back to top |
|
LennytheWicked
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 516
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dalurker wrote: | | Why not let someone else be a genius? Someone with ambition and concern for real problems. Many would love to be a genius. |
And now for an actual reply that ignores the blatant insult.
Just because I'm smart does not obligate me to do anything. I'm entitled to my own interests and needs just as every other person on this planet is or at least should be, and my interests and needs are not particularly people-oriented. Why? Because people don't listen, that's why. They're boring, predictable in that they only care what the majority thinks. Does this stop me from having political views and opinions on things such as poverty? No. Do I voice them? Sometimes. Do people listen? No. They don't. No one cares what an autistic "kid" has to say.
People who want to be a genius are morons. Everyone else thinks you're obligated to be smart in their stead.
Just because you can't think for yourselves doesn't mean you should turn to someone who can to do it for you. Yeesh. |
|
| Back to top |
|
LennytheWicked
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 516
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dalurker wrote: | | When you stop being one. |
Never. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| androbot2084 wrote: | | I think communism fails because people are forced into it. If it was a voluntary choice there would be no greedy people in the system. |
Well yeah if people are forced into it it quickly starts resembling facism.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
|
| Back to top |
|
LennytheWicked
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 516
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| androbot2084 wrote: | | But in China not everyone was given a choice. |
A very very large majority of China wanted and supported communism in the early stages; it wasn't until the poor organization caught up with them that they [the middle class and poorer citizens] started to oppose, but they were given less choice because the government was becoming a dictatorship.
I'm oversimplifying it, but China ran well for a few years before the disorganization caught up to them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
androbot2084
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
Posts: 3091
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
There is no one else for the job.
The conventional wisdom is that the capitalist will not give up his wealth voluntarily and his wealth must be taken from him by force. If the revolution succeeds the counter revolutionaries must be brutally suppressed which results in executions. Thus a totalitarian state is created without freedom so the people are actually no better off.
If you can convince the wealthy to voluntarily give up their wealth... |
|
| Back to top |
|
LennytheWicked
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 516
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sweetleaf wrote: | | androbot2084 wrote: | | I think communism fails because people are forced into it. If it was a voluntary choice there would be no greedy people in the system. |
Well yeah if people are forced into it it quickly starts resembling fascism. |
+1
Actually, a former politician in China said something along the lines of, "We'll do whatever we want and call it socialism." Gives you a little insight as to how it's not really communism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
dalurker
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 14, 2008
Posts: 514
Location: NY
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| androbot2084 wrote: | | The reason why most communism does not work is because it is based on coercion by violent revolution. What this results in when peoples hearts are not in it is failure because inherently selfish people have no incentive to work for the greater good. You on the other hand teach that revolution should be founded on love and peace. |
A better form of society is worth such carnage. There wouldn't be a society with the liberties we have if it weren't for war. Such scary things may seem abominable to middle class individuals living in safe locations, but there's no reason to see it as an unjust option for those living in misery. Pacifism is a joke. Hipster tactics never solve any problem and even hurt other efforts to make things better. That kind of liberalism is based on emotionalism and isn't analytical. Violent revolutions have helped, and have been implemented by genuine individuals.
Many will act selfish when it's the only way available to accomplish survival. Lots have an instinct to be altruistic. But they won't act on it if they're convinced by the demoralizing claims that others are only selfish and corrupt, and that there's no substantial way to make things better for all. Why respect the well-being of others if they're corrupt and selfish? |
|
| Back to top |
|
LennytheWicked
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 23, 2011
Posts: 516
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| androbot2084 wrote: | There is no one else for the job.
The conventional wisdom is that the capitalist will not give up his wealth voluntarily and his wealth must be taken from him by force. If the revolution succeeds the counter revolutionaries must be brutally suppressed which results in executions. Thus a totalitarian state is created without freedom so the people are actually no better off.
If you can convince the wealthy to voluntarily give up their wealth... |
I'm going to go ahead and point to my ancestors in Russia.
My great great grandmother and her family were moderately wealthy; she was a very gifted seamstress, and despite being Jewish was looked upon very highly by her customers, most of whom were also wealthy. When she still lived in Russia, most of her time that was not spent working was spent...well, working, but more along the lines of running a makeshift soup kitchen. She got kicked out of Russia for being a communist activist. Along with her entire family, which included quite a few people.
Later, Russia did become communist...briefly, until they actually turned fascist.
So it's not a matter of the wealthy voluntarily giving up their wealth, it's a matter of putting literally everyone on the same economic level no matter what they do. It would almost necessitate money being eliminated. I don't know exactly how, but I don't think that communism can work as long as humans exhibit pack behavior.
Last edited by LennytheWicked on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| androbot2084 wrote: | There is no one else for the job.
The conventional wisdom is that the capitalist will not give up his wealth voluntarily and his wealth must be taken from him by force. If the revolution succeeds the counter revolutionaries must be brutally suppressed which results in executions. Thus a totalitarian state is created without freedom so the people are actually no better off.
If you can convince the wealthy to voluntarily give up their wealth... |
Yeah screw totalitarianism, I want no part in anything like that so I'd have to come up with another way. But as far as I know there's people already actively coming up with a better plan than I could come up with as to what to do.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dalurker wrote: | | androbot2084 wrote: | | The reason why most communism does not work is because it is based on coercion by violent revolution. What this results in when peoples hearts are not in it is failure because inherently selfish people have no incentive to work for the greater good. You on the other hand teach that revolution should be founded on love and peace. |
A better form of society is worth such carnage. There wouldn't be a society with the liberties we have if it weren't for war. Such scary things may seem abominable to middle class individuals living in safe locations, but there's no reason to see it as an unjust option for those living in misery. Pacifism is a joke. Hipster tactics never solve any problem and even hurt other efforts to make things better. That kind of liberalism is based on emotionalism and isn't analytical. Violent revolutions have helped, and have been implemented by genuine individuals.
Many will act selfish when it's the only way available to accomplish survival. Lots have an instinct to be altruistic. But they won't act on it if they're convinced by the demoralizing claims that others are only selfish and corrupt, and that there's no substantial way to make things better for all. Why respect the well-being of others if they're corrupt and selfish? |
Well all it does is continue the vicious cycle...I mean its not like I honestly think I can really change anything or start a peaceful communist revolution I certainly think it would be cool though  . Also I think humans fighting over resources that are running out and killing each other over it when they could put all those materials and technology to better use and use more efficient and renewable energy as well as possibly put things like industrial hemp to use but I guess it's better to fight to the death till its too late and we're all f***d. I know ha ha ha, more hippie bs...well whatever.
Also not everyone is so corrupt and selfish...and I don't know that it was directed at me but I'm not middle class, and what the hell is a safe location? apparently not the public schools, but I guess that is a separate issue and I don't want to go off topic.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
|
| Back to top |
|
dalurker
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 14, 2008
Posts: 514
Location: NY
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LennytheWicked wrote: | | dalurker wrote: | | Why not let someone else be a genius? Someone with ambition and concern for real problems. Many would love to be a genius. |
And now for an actual reply that ignores the blatant insult.
Just because I'm smart does not obligate me to do anything. I'm entitled to my own interests and needs just as every other person on this planet is or at least should be, and my interests and needs are not particularly people-oriented. Why? Because people don't listen, that's why. They're boring, predictable in that they only care what the majority thinks. Does this stop me from having political views and opinions on things such as poverty? No. Do I voice them? Sometimes. Do people listen? No. They don't. No one cares what an autistic "kid" has to say.
People who want to be a genius are morons. Everyone else thinks you're obligated to be smart in their stead.
Just because you can't think for yourselves doesn't mean you should turn to someone who can to do it for you. Yeesh. |
All I was saying was, let someone else have something if you really don't value it. You're not obligated to do anything specific. But knowing your views, you wouldn't want to share your "gift" with others who lack even basic aptitudes. Considering that you admittedly don't like others. I seriously wonder why you would exhibit altruistic viewpoints despite that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
