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Quantum_Immortal
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
Age: 30
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 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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maybe the question is ill defined. Whats the difference, in the lab, between spiritual and material?
Everything follows some sort of rules.
Spiritual stuff must also follow some kind of rules. They also must have some sort of way to detect them.
If you say no, then what? Randomness? That too is a rule. Here it is, its random. If its blurry like quantum physics, then in that case too, it would follow some kind of statistics.
Bottom line: Spiritual stuff, is simply a fancy name for a different kind of matter (if it exist).
(makes me think of the strange and charm quark, its just stupid names)
In other words, the question it self has a problem. Like the assertion: "i tell only lies"
_________________
just a mad scientist. I'm the founder of:
the church of the super quantum immortal.
http://thechurchofthequantumimmortal.blogspot.be/ |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: |
If he later saw an image of his actual deceased sister and made the association, that would fill in the details of the old memory as if they had always been there. With nothing for those details to displace, it would just stand to reason. |
I think that's why it doesn't work as evidence. We can't quantify how sure he is or how many pictures of his dead sister he'd seen to verify if her affect/expressionality matches correctly. That's where the best we can do is guess on how careful he'd be about saying such a thing (I *hope* careful enough to be considerate of his newly met siblings who are still alive and that just blowing off the top over a loose correlation in his head would be in credibly poor taste). From there though, as to the strength of anecdote, it seems to be more a thing of knowing him, his character, his habits, and whether or not he's an excitable guy in terms of jumping to conclusions.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Another problem with this last one, though, is that this is not a "skeptic turned believer." He portrays himself somewhat as such, but the problem is that he was never a declared atheist. The closest he comes to saying he was a skeptic is that he became discouraged over the ineffectiveness of prayer. That't not the same as dismissing religion altogether. Therefore, if he were to have what appeared to be an extraordinary experience, it would stand to reason that he would enjoy a sort of second honeymoon with religion and/or spirituality. |
I actually heard a different interview where he was clear that he'd been swayed to reductive materialism and he seemed to be implying that he was that ever since his college days or really starting to get into science. The question of the meningitis comes up as he sort of woke up in that state, somewhere else, with no idea who or even what he was. On one hand that could have possibly overturned his years of atheism as his childhood theism might have been at a deeper level than what the meningitis had gotten to? Even there that seems out on a limb, just like there's no reason the meningitis couldn't have attacked the parts of his brain that held more religious memories than memories of times when he had more atheistic beliefs.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Then again, he might just have some really large medical bills, and he's desperate to save his estate. Anyway, I will give him credit for being a very gifted speaker. |
I'd wonder what his health insurance would look like. I did an eight day stint in a hospital from peritonitis, that came to $20kish. He's a neurologist with a neurologist's income and it doesn't sound like he had much more than several weeks.
Its a possibility that he's just been a life long shiester and has been telling tall tales since he was a kid but, things like that tend to get out of the bag quick and no doubt the IANDS and NDERF type organizations believe what they're saying and put enough effort into not getting their research or reputation burned by charlatans. At a minimum he has to be making a pretty convincing showing that he himself at least believes it, so that pretty much leads us right back to the paragraph you mentioned before - that the remnants of his mind with released DMT and oxytocin could have made this happen; not impossible but definitely a bit wild from the standpoint of probabilities. |
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WilliamWDelaney
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I think that another thing that needs to be pointed out is this:
We really need to rethink how we view "brain death." The idea that dying entails the functioning of the brain coming to a standstill is a bit of a fallacy. If it were that simple, we could restore all brain function by simply restoring oxygen flow. That's not really what happens. The brain doesn't just stop operating. When the brain is dying, a lot more than usual is going on chemically, inside the brain. Calcium is actually flowing into cells very rapidly, building up to toxic levels that actually kill the cell. Other changes are going on.
Therefore, if a lot of new memories were to suddenly form following a brush with brain death, memories that, by all rights, should not be there, then that might actually shed some important light on what is actually going on in the brain when we die.
Now, let me illustrate to you how resorting too quickly to the superstitious argument can actually be seriously harmful. If we jump directly to the conclusion, "There is a soul in there, glory, hallelujah, tapdance for Jesus," then we would end up overlooking information that could enable us to actually save lives. What the superstitious position amounts to is simply plugging your ears to any remotely scientific explanation and throwing it over for spiritual mumbo-jumbo that ultimately is a road to nowhere.
On the other hand, if we were to avoid letting ourselves get over-excitable and explored the topic from a sober perspective, we could eventually gather a lot of information from these NDEs. We could do a lot to help sharpen our understanding of how the brain actually works. In the future, when your brain is about to go into "brain death," we might be able to shoot you up with some kind of preservative chemical that would keep you alive until you could be gotten into an ICU. It might not be a magic bullet to do away with death and dying forever, amen, but it would be something we could arm paramedics with that could help get someone who is going into cardiac arrest from the scene to the hospital in relative safety. That's something we might not develop if we jump to a lot of unsupported conclusions without taking the time to look deeper. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: |
Now, let me illustrate to you how resorting too quickly to the superstitious argument can actually be seriously harmful. If we jump directly to the conclusion, "There is a soul in there, glory, hallelujah, tapdance for Jesus," then we would end up overlooking information that could enable us to actually save lives. What the superstitious position amounts to is simply plugging your ears to any remotely scientific explanation and throwing it over for spiritual mumbo-jumbo that ultimately is a road to nowhere.
On the other hand, if we were to avoid letting ourselves get over-excitable and explored the topic from a sober perspective, we could eventually gather a lot of information from these NDEs. We could do a lot to help sharpen our understanding of how the brain actually works. In the future, when your brain is about to go into "brain death," we might be able to shoot you up with some kind of preservative chemical that would keep you alive until you could be gotten into an ICU. It might not be a magic bullet to do away with death and dying forever, amen, but it would be something we could arm paramedics with that could help get someone who is going into cardiac arrest from the scene to the hospital in relative safety. That's something we might not develop if we jump to a lot of unsupported conclusions without taking the time to look deeper. |
I hear you on the medical possibilities, I just can't relate the argument that taking the viewpoint for evidence of a life hereafter means that the science by definition must grind to a halt. I don't think anyone would all of a sudden declare this some sort of hallowed 'God of the gaps' realm that must be obstinately guarded at all costs, and if a few wackaloons did I have no idea who they'd go to to authorize that kind of research shutdown and have it be in any way binding. |
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WilliamWDelaney
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | WilliamWDelaney wrote: |
Now, let me illustrate to you how resorting too quickly to the superstitious argument can actually be seriously harmful. If we jump directly to the conclusion, "There is a soul in there, glory, hallelujah, tapdance for Jesus," then we would end up overlooking information that could enable us to actually save lives. What the superstitious position amounts to is simply plugging your ears to any remotely scientific explanation and throwing it over for spiritual mumbo-jumbo that ultimately is a road to nowhere.
On the other hand, if we were to avoid letting ourselves get over-excitable and explored the topic from a sober perspective, we could eventually gather a lot of information from these NDEs. We could do a lot to help sharpen our understanding of how the brain actually works. In the future, when your brain is about to go into "brain death," we might be able to shoot you up with some kind of preservative chemical that would keep you alive until you could be gotten into an ICU. It might not be a magic bullet to do away with death and dying forever, amen, but it would be something we could arm paramedics with that could help get someone who is going into cardiac arrest from the scene to the hospital in relative safety. That's something we might not develop if we jump to a lot of unsupported conclusions without taking the time to look deeper. |
I hear you on the medical possibilities, I just can't relate the argument that taking the viewpoint for evidence of a life hereafter means that the science by definition must grind to a halt. I don't think anyone would all of a sudden declare this some sort of hallowed 'God of the gaps' realm that must be obstinately guarded at all costs, and if a few wackaloons did I have no idea who they'd go to to authorize that kind of research shutdown and have it be in any way binding. |
Four words: embryonic stem cell research. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Four words: embryonic stem cell research. |
I don't think this will require aborted fetuses or encouragement of having a stock of aborted fetuses. If you're theory was correct there should be all kinds of clamour against any type of AIDS vaccine because its a 'sinners' disease to those who would be 17th century churlish enough to say such a thing. |
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WilliamWDelaney
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Four words: embryonic stem cell research. |
I don't think this will require aborted fetuses or encouragement of having a stock of aborted fetuses. If you're theory was correct there should be all kinds of clamour against any type of AIDS vaccine because its a 'sinners' disease to those who would be 17th century churlish enough to say such a thing. |
Yeah, that's pretty much what they're doing:
http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2008/08/14/senator-tom-coburns-valient-fight-against-aids-research
"Mr. Coburn has been critical of federal funding of past AIDS conferences. In 2006, he questioned whether the federal government was acting prudently in spending "millions of dollars" on several AIDS conferences that year."
http://www.blaghag.com/2009/11/purdue-professor-gays-wasting-our-money.html
"As a Christian, I agree with the biblical condemnation of the homosexual lifestyle. However, we are living in a nation and world that increasingly rejects biblical norms. To defend traditional sexual morality against the encroaching threat of homosexuality and other aberrant forms of sexual expression, we need to be able to do more than cite Bible verses. Fortunately, there are plenty of economic reasons for being against sodomite degeneracy and I think as conservatives we need to be able to articulate why our nation cannot afford the extremely high financial costs of this lifestyle at a time when we are confronting dangerously high budget deficits, national debt, and personal debt."
And these people are really not all by themselves, here. At one point, whether we ought to see AIDS as "punishment from God for being a fag" was a very controversial issue! At one time, people were actually pretty evenly divided on the issue!
http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=311
"Just 23% of the public now agree with the statement that "AIDS might be God's punishment for immoral sexual behavior," while 72% disagree; when this question was first asked in 1987, public opinion was divided on the question, with 43% agreeing and 47% disagreeing."
And this isn't something that is in the distance for me. A friend of my s.o.'s is suffering from multiple sclerosis, and his family of missionary Baptists all think it's a punishment for him being a "sinner." These people really exist. His doctor tried to "help things along" by taking him off his MS drugs. While he was losing his hearing and his memory, he was waiting for his spinal tap results to come in to vindicate that he actually was suffering from MS. But his run-in with a redneck doctor who thought he would "give God a helping hand" nearly killed him. And he is too poor to press charges over this. You really do think I'm making this up, but this kind of crap is happening all the time.
You talk here like all of what I'm saying is far-fetched, but these attitudes are about as quotidian as they come. People who think this way are out there, and they are just dying to enact their superstitious drivel as law.
Tech, I think that there is a burden of responsibility on those of us who are able to turn over ideas and see them in different ways to try to curb this kind of behavior. I am not against people being religious. I encourage people who have the inclination to enjoy having the beliefs they do. The reason I do so is that I think it's a lot more important, in the long-run, to teach people beneficial habits of thinking that might lead people AWAY from harmful behavior.
For example, I think it's important to take these NDEs as an interesting phenomenon that we don't really have a concrete, set-in-stone explanation for. We might have a variety of different beliefs to start with, but all of us can approach it in the same way, which is to highlight a number of different possible explanations and try to narrow that list down. All of us, whether or not we believe in insubstantial spirits, can abide by this rule. All of us, religious or not, can conduct ourselves in a responsible manner.
And it sets off some serious alarm bells for me when someone is talking about how "amazed" he is, as if all of us are supposed to get "amazed" with him and close our ears to any other possible explanation for what he's talking about. I see it as immoral. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think its sadly more proof positive (at least for us) that if there's a God, he's part Steve-O from Jackass, part Andy Kaufmann, and part Maynard from Tool. Yeah, he's got a heck of a sense of humor but it waxes a bit sadistic. Why? He buries this argument in churls and we're stuck arguing about what they'd do than what we'd do.
I have to admit as well that I really must live in a bubble. I saw Mitt Romney this morning with Rob Portman and I've never been surrounded by a politer crowd. I think the strange beauty of the Cleveland area is that your vulgar conservatives are our liberals and your mild mannered liberals are our mild mannered and thoughtful conservatives.
Regardless though of how disgusting and churlish the human race is, or regarless of how much of a practical joker the Totality might be if it has senitence; ongoing research into both the validity of NDE and the validity of NDE chemical reactions in saving lives, are things that truly need their own merit. When I say that I'm a swayed atheist I really mean that the churlishness on either side makes me sick, I really think that truth should prevail, and I really think that all the sick/dark jokes about AIDS being a 'gay' disease or gays being 'sinners' above anyone else just needs to stop as its pure rubbish.
So, I really have to draw my own beliefs in accordance with what they are and take a leak on those who want to go back to Old Salem attitudes. If I have to arbitrarily call myself an atheist even though I believe there's more evidence of a higher power, just for fear of what the churls will do - I'll never be talking apples and apples and consequently I'll never have the freedom to express an honest opinion.
Admittedly the bubble I live in is really strong, I still haven't met the fag-hating racist conservatives that are talked about so much around here, I still have no idea what reality really is on that one (perhaps I don't know if I'll environmentally ever have the tools to fully sort that out in a town where the scripts are flipped) but, at a minimum I can talk about my own understandings and beliefs.
In the case of what you're saying - if I'm the privileged 1 out of 10 who can believe in a diety at all and not go villager with a torch - so be it. I still have to accept that about myself. Regardless though, if we can, we'll need to keep like with like - ie. absolute meaning with absolute meaning and cultural relativity with cultural relativity. IMHO they're different topics that need to be handled on different levels. |
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WilliamWDelaney
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | I think its sadly more proof positive (at least for us) that if there's a God, he's part Steve-O from Jackass, part Andy Kaufmann, and part Maynard from Tool. Yeah, he's got a heck of a sense of humor but it waxes a bit sadistic. Why? He buries this argument in churls and we're stuck arguing about what they'd do than what we'd do.
I have to admit as well that I really must live in a bubble. I saw Mitt Romney this morning with Rob Portman and I've never been surrounded by a politer crowd. I think the strange beauty of the Cleveland area is that your vulgar conservatives are our liberals and your mild mannered liberals are our mild mannered and thoughtful conservatives.
Regardless though of how disgusting and churlish the human race is, or regarless of how much of a practical joker the Totality might be if it has senitence; ongoing research into both the validity of NDE and the validity of NDE chemical reactions in saving lives, are things that truly need their own merit. When I say that I'm a swayed atheist I really mean that the churlishness on either side makes me sick, I really think that truth should prevail, and I really think that all the sick/dark jokes about AIDS being a 'gay' disease or gays being 'sinners' above anyone else just needs to stop as its pure rubbish.
So, I really have to draw my own beliefs in accordance with what they are and take a leak on those who want to go back to Old Salem attitudes. If I have to arbitrarily call myself an atheist even though I believe there's more evidence of a higher power, just for fear of what the churls will do - I'll never be talking apples and apples and consequently I'll never have the freedom to express an honest opinion.
Admittedly the bubble I live in is really strong, I still haven't met the fag-hating racist conservatives that are talked about so much around here, I still have no idea what reality really is on that one (perhaps I don't know if I'll environmentally ever have the tools to fully sort that out in a town where the scripts are flipped) but, at a minimum I can talk about my own understandings and beliefs.
In the case of what you're saying - if I'm the privileged 1 out of 10 who can believe in a diety at all and not go villager with a torch - so be it. I still have to accept that about myself. Regardless though, if we can, we'll need to keep like with like - ie. absolute meaning with absolute meaning and cultural relativity with cultural relativity. IMHO they're different topics that need to be handled on different levels. |
I grew up in the 1990s in a pretty redneck part of the state, and I can assure you that it's not something from the cold, dead past. The guy I was telling you about who has the MS, after that redneck quack took him off of his medications, ended up being hospitalized with multiple hernias. His throat was closing up, and he wasn't able to keep down food. He is lucky to be alive right now. When that damn quack heard that he was a flamer, he was pronounced AIDS-ridden without so much as a blood test, and he was left to die. This sh** is still happening in parts of our country. I know it's hard for you to believe, where you come from.
But yeah, you are right that we shouldn't let other people's ignorance control our thinking, so I would rather emphasize the value of investigating multiple angles for interpreting people's experiences. I think that this does have value to you and me. Although it is interesting to consider the spiritual interpretation of NDEs, I think it's important to avoid being drawn into the temptation of latching onto it as a conclusion. I place a high value on regarding things in sober perspective.
In fact, that's why I find it so off-putting to hear someone dancing back and forth, talking about how "amazed" he is about something. Every puritanical ounce of my heritage revolts at it. The first guy was good because he had a calm, professorial attitude about his views. I felt comfortable with him. The second guy made my skin crawl, though. The third guy's story simply doesn't add up, and his disarming sense of humor didn't help much. So far, only the first guy seems to have any face credibility.
I'll look through your other videos when I get a chance, though. |
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Lord_Gareth
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | I think its sadly more proof positive (at least for us) that if there's a God, he's part Steve-O from Jackass, part Andy Kaufmann, and part Maynard from Tool. Yeah, he's got a heck of a sense of humor but it waxes a bit sadistic. Why? He buries this argument in churls and we're stuck arguing about what they'd do than what we'd do.
I have to admit as well that I really must live in a bubble. I saw Mitt Romney this morning with Rob Portman and I've never been surrounded by a politer crowd. I think the strange beauty of the Cleveland area is that your vulgar conservatives are our liberals and your mild mannered liberals are our mild mannered and thoughtful conservatives.
Regardless though of how disgusting and churlish the human race is, or regarless of how much of a practical joker the Totality might be if it has senitence; ongoing research into both the validity of NDE and the validity of NDE chemical reactions in saving lives, are things that truly need their own merit. When I say that I'm a swayed atheist I really mean that the churlishness on either side makes me sick, I really think that truth should prevail, and I really think that all the sick/dark jokes about AIDS being a 'gay' disease or gays being 'sinners' above anyone else just needs to stop as its pure rubbish.
So, I really have to draw my own beliefs in accordance with what they are and take a leak on those who want to go back to Old Salem attitudes. If I have to arbitrarily call myself an atheist even though I believe there's more evidence of a higher power, just for fear of what the churls will do - I'll never be talking apples and apples and consequently I'll never have the freedom to express an honest opinion.
Admittedly the bubble I live in is really strong, I still haven't met the fag-hating racist conservatives that are talked about so much around here, I still have no idea what reality really is on that one (perhaps I don't know if I'll environmentally ever have the tools to fully sort that out in a town where the scripts are flipped) but, at a minimum I can talk about my own understandings and beliefs.
In the case of what you're saying - if I'm the privileged 1 out of 10 who can believe in a diety at all and not go villager with a torch - so be it. I still have to accept that about myself. Regardless though, if we can, we'll need to keep like with like - ie. absolute meaning with absolute meaning and cultural relativity with cultural relativity. IMHO they're different topics that need to be handled on different levels. |
I've encountered 'bubbles' like the one you've just described, but having lived in Michigan, Missouri, and Kansas, I can tell ya that what William is describing is also sickeningly common.
_________________
Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I." |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: |
But yeah, you are right that we shouldn't let other people's ignorance control our thinking, so I would rather emphasize the value of investigating multiple angles for interpreting people's experiences. |
Something else that was interesting - I was reading about older cultures today, including a lot of the esoteric sects and even Druids. It seemed like there was a lot of use of that - ie. higher order thought and teachings that were kept away from the general public; sometimes for control but other times over thoughts like these - ie. that the general public given certain knowledge would just about start putting heads on pikes.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | I think that this does have value to you and me. Although it is interesting to consider the spiritual interpretation of NDEs, I think it's important to avoid being drawn into the temptation of latching onto it as a conclusion. I place a high value on regarding things in sober perspective. |
I'd agree to disagree with you there in that when it goes back to people with their eyes taped shut, bags over their heads, and pulsing monitors in their ears, in a state of deep coma or supposed medical death (heart cessation longer than 37 seconds) giving full accounts of conversations - exactly as they went, problems exactly as they occurred, at other times recounting places that they never saw in a conscious state because they were brought in unconscious, sent somewhere else before they woke up and they remember things lucidly that happened inbetween - I personally don't have it in me to say "Ah yeah well.....er..... a bunch of religious nurses must have been their own worst enemies, told them everything and asked - did you see that?". It necessarily has to fall on discredit the sources and, it seems to pull that card farther than it has credible elasticity for my tastes.
Other than that though, as far as I'm concerned, evidence of spirit is there. Whether or not NDE is part of that or really just chemical overdose cascade interplaying with that to where its incredibly difficult to separate the two - I wouldn't bring myself to cast judgment on that either way, just the evidence for non locality of consciousness or the physical housing it rather than generating it seems quite strong.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | In fact, that's why I find it so off-putting to hear someone dancing back and forth, talking about how "amazed" he is about something. |
Well, I guess I'd have to ask you - have you ever tripped or rolled? Even if it were purely chemical as you're suggesting, they're describing an experience that completely changed their lives, time ceased to exist, they could see 360 degrees, they were seeing neverending fields of psychic creation in what they describe as a state of lucidity so high that it made day do day consciousness look aweful.
If someone's going to have that kind of ride its quite a difficult thing for them not to express that kind of amazement.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Every puritanical ounce of my heritage revolts at it. The first guy was good because he had a calm, professorial attitude about his views. I felt comfortable with him. The second guy made my skin crawl, though. The third guy's story simply doesn't add up, and his disarming sense of humor didn't help much. So far, only the first guy seems to have any face credibility. |
When I posted those videos I really put the scientists first and then put the later videos down, starting with Eben Williams not quite so much as evidence but to more or less give you videos or interviews where they mapped out the typical content pretty well and to give you an idea of what these experiences end up being.
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | I'll look through your other videos when I get a chance, though. |
As I just mentioned above though - you've pretty much gotten through the evidential stuff. I don't know what you'll get out of the videos after that, albeit I am perhaps a little confused that you haven't commented on the 15 minute Greyson presentation at the UN. |
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WilliamWDelaney
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | WilliamWDelaney wrote: |
But yeah, you are right that we shouldn't let other people's ignorance control our thinking, so I would rather emphasize the value of investigating multiple angles for interpreting people's experiences. |
Something else that was interesting - I was reading about older cultures today, including a lot of the esoteric sects and even Druids. It seemed like there was a lot of use of that - ie. higher order thought and teachings that were kept away from the general public; sometimes for control but other times over thoughts like these - ie. that the general public given certain knowledge would just about start putting heads on pikes. |
Actually, if you were to read over the Torah, they tell you some pretty good science in there. For example, they give you lists of herbs that are useful as antimicrobial agents, right there in the book. They tell you how to go about making up ingredients for soap. They even provide a primitive concept of germ theory: if you were to go through the Torah and always wrote "germs" in the place of "demons," it would make a lot more sense.
Personally, I don't think that ancient scientists were always as closed or cryptic as you might think. A lot of the old writings are as plain as daylight to anyone who doesn't read a bunch of spiritual mumbo-jumbo into it. The thing is, I can SEE this, whereas other people can't: even a skeptical thinker makes the erroneous assumption that the practice of boiling ox blood was intended to drive off some mystical force or other, so they remain blind to the truly obvious and plain meaning. The religious thinkers make the same incorrect assumption as the skeptical thinkers, the difference being that they believe it. Only strange people like me seem to run with the assumption that our ancient ancestors were trying to do something valid and useful.
| Quote: | | WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | I think that this does have value to you and me. Although it is interesting to consider the spiritual interpretation of NDEs, I think it's important to avoid being drawn into the temptation of latching onto it as a conclusion. I place a high value on regarding things in sober perspective. |
I'd agree to disagree with you there in that when it goes back to people with their eyes taped shut, bags over their heads, and pulsing monitors in their ears, in a state of deep coma or supposed medical death (heart cessation longer than 37 seconds) giving full accounts of conversations - exactly as they went, problems exactly as they occurred, at other times recounting places that they never saw in a conscious state because they were brought in unconscious, sent somewhere else before they woke up and they remember things lucidly that happened inbetween - I personally don't have it in me to say "Ah yeah well.....er..... a bunch of religious nurses must have been their own worst enemies, told them everything and asked - did you see that?". It necessarily has to fall on discredit the sources and, it seems to pull that card farther than it has credible elasticity for my tastes. |
Yet you still don't have any grounds to dismiss purely physiological causation, which has a long, healthy track record for being the actual case. That's the problem. As interesting as the spiritual explanation is, it needs to be examined in sober perspective.
Actually, it's fairly common for people to be able to hear and interact with the world around them during a coma.
http://www.medindia.net/patients/patientinfo/coma_hear.htm
"People in coma sometimes show signs that they are able to hear and understand. Often these signs are just simple reflexes -- like squeezing a hand, or sucking, in response to a touch."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/6638155/Locked-in-a-coma-I-could-hear-people-talking-around-me.html
"Imagine this. You are lying in a hospital bed, in a coma, apparently dead to what is happening around you. But you experience it all the same, hear what is being said about and to you, and try in vain to communicate with your loved ones and the world outside.
That is what happened to Ron Houben, a Belgian student who spent 23 years in a so-called persistent vegetative state, after being paralysed by a 1983 car crash."
You might want to put it in your living will to have a reading list of books on tape played for you in the event that you were to fall into a coma. It would be an awesome time to catch up on your reading list. Hehe. The thing is, I routinely have a similar experience, in which I wake up with sleep paralysis. I can hear what is going around me, and I feel mentally awake. However, I can't move. I can't open my eyes except for a tiny fraction. If it ever happens to you, the best thing to do, really, is to relax and listen to your breathing. You snap out of it after a minute or so.
| Quote: | | Other than that though, as far as I'm concerned, evidence of spirit is there. Whether or not NDE is part of that or really just chemical overdose cascade interplaying with that to where its incredibly difficult to separate the two - I wouldn't bring myself to cast judgment on that either way, just the evidence for non locality of consciousness or the physical housing it rather than generating it seems quite strong. |
It would be interesting to study, though. I strongly think that, if we were to look at NDEs closely, it could lead us to methods of keeping the brain intact during cardiac arrest and other traumas long enough to make it possible to render effective treatment.
| Quote: | | WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | In fact, that's why I find it so off-putting to hear someone dancing back and forth, talking about how "amazed" he is about something. |
Well, I guess I'd have to ask you - have you ever tripped or rolled? Even if it were purely chemical as you're suggesting, they're describing an experience that completely changed their lives, time ceased to exist, they could see 360 degrees, they were seeing neverending fields of psychic creation in what they describe as a state of lucidity so high that it made day do day consciousness look aweful. |
Nope. The only drug I ever had any experience with was marijuana, and I didn't like it. I constantly have a lot of interesting thoughts swirling around in my mind, and I like them. There is always music and lights and fairy bridges and stuff. When I am sleeping alone, sometimes I hear music. Usually, it's in a minor key or in some mode other than major key. It's always pleasant. Occasionally, it's what I think is an old sitcom. The marijuana shuts it all off, and I don't like that. It's like someone pulled the plug on the television, and my thought is, "okay, when is this going to be over?" So I haven't bothered messing with any other chemicals besides booze and nicotine. I figure that I'm crazy enough without the help of chemicals.
| Quote: | | If someone's going to have that kind of ride its quite a difficult thing for them not to express that kind of amazement. |
The second guy had had no such experience, though. He was just recounting it second-hand. He really made my skin crawl.
| Quote: | | When I posted those videos I really put the scientists first and then put the later videos down, starting with Eben Williams not quite so much as evidence but to more or less give you videos or interviews where they mapped out the typical content pretty well and to give you an idea of what these experiences end up being. |
I'll look at the other ones. I'm sure they're interesting. For the past couple of days, most of my free time has been spent on tending the yard. Those weeds have just about strangled the grass. Giant patches of naked earth left in their wake. Nasty creatures.
| Quote: | | WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | I'll look through your other videos when I get a chance, though. |
As I just mentioned above though - you've pretty much gotten through the evidential stuff. I don't know what you'll get out of the videos after that, albeit I am perhaps a little confused that you haven't commented on the 15 minute Greyson presentation at the UN. |
Because I haven't looked at it yet. I like lectures. I'll make that next on my viewing list. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
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Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
Well, I guess I'd have to ask you - have you ever tripped or rolled? Even if it were purely chemical as you're suggesting, they're describing an experience that completely changed their lives, time ceased to exist, they could see 360 degrees, they were seeing neverending fields of psychic creation in what they describe as a state of lucidity so high that it made day do day consciousness look aweful. |
Nope. The only drug I ever had any experience with was marijuana, and I didn't like it. I constantly have a lot of interesting thoughts swirling around in my mind, and I like them. There is always music and lights and fairy bridges and stuff. When I am sleeping alone, sometimes I hear music. Usually, it's in a minor key or in some mode other than major key. It's always pleasant. Occasionally, it's what I think is an old sitcom. The marijuana shuts it all off, and I don't like that. It's like someone pulled the plug on the television, and my thought is, "okay, when is this going to be over?" So I haven't bothered messing with any other chemicals besides booze and nicotine. I figure that I'm crazy enough without the help of chemicals.
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I'm not really sure what to tell you in that case; ie. I would tell you that LSD, mushrooms, etc. are quite inverse in a lot of ways to marijuana, but at the same time I have to wonder if what you're saying you already see in hear in a sober state isn't already half way up that track. In that sense though I'd be quite hesitant to recommend it unless you were taking an incredibly low dose just to test drive its safety against your own physiology (ie. 1/4 of what it is for the average novice).
What happens with that stuff though, aside from getting quite an adventure, is that people also have their a priori formats of thinking exposed in the open. Its one of the reason why I used to do it once or twice every couple years - even after my party days - to get a better sense on what was going on in my life, how I needed to adapt things, etc.
As for occasionally seeing (sober) sort of white washed peaceful meadows or hearing some type of trance or electronic tune written the right way and scratching my head because the feeling takes me that it's a national anthem or something of the like that I heard 10,000 years ago - that stuff does happen to me albeit in increasing rarity. I did have an odd experience though about three years ago when me and my friends all went downtown, hit the clubs as usual, lots of sort of crazy stuff happened that night, and when I was at home, meditating on it, trying to make sure that I got every possible ounce of social meaning out of it that I could I instantly saw the pictures as if they were all in a line, all trajectories against trajectories, I zoomed out on that line and saw it painting what appeared to be a patchwork quilt and as I zoomed out farther I saw would could have easily been classified as the mainframe of all my experiences stored photographically and that mainframe was essentially a rainbow colored mendalla (something I didn't know the terminology for and that had no particular meaning for me at the time). It happened at a time when I was atheistic but still open to very Jungian interpretations of how the mind operated or the size of the subconscious, the later was what I really marveled at, however I found it incredibly odd that a particular deep NDE'er who was interviewed mentioned asking God why mankind seems so dark and doomed at which point the light opened a mendalla which housed all human souls and that he saw no darkness at all in them.
I know for a lot of people its those odd coincidences like the last thing I mentioned that tend to direct them toward belief but I also think that if we (human race) are going to study the potential of spirituality from this standpoint it would be a matter of continuing to study the congruences between NDE's, the things that a three year old would be as likely to see as an adult in the US who'd be as likely to see the same thing as a Buddhist in Tibet or a villager in Africa. I think that even if what we find is so bizarre that it makes the life hereafter and the chemical death of the brain look almost indistinguishable but linked across boundaries, or if it starts looking more like aside from a few consistent polarities to the experiences that everything we see is projected from ourselves - that in and of itself would be fascinating. On the bright side though, I think as well that the growth of the current NDE spiritual movement will be a big thorn in the side to the Salem villiagers that we still perhaps have running around or trying to decide national policy based on 17th century religious thought. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| The only other thing I wanted to mention; we'd also need more research into the differences between a comotose brain and a brain that's had better than 30 seconds of no blood supply. Being the social critters we are as human beings it might not intuitiely seem like a huge difference in a persons level of vegetation but it does stand to reason that a person with steady oxygen supply would be more likely to have a working brain. |
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WilliamWDelaney
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Joined: Apr 27, 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | The only other thing I wanted to mention; we'd also need more research into the differences between a comotose brain and a brain that's had better than 30 seconds of no blood supply. Being the social critters we are as human beings it might not intuitiely seem like a huge difference in a persons level of vegetation but it does stand to reason that a person with steady oxygen supply would be more likely to have a working brain. |
Well, one thing that I've been trying to communicate here is that the loss of electrical activity in the human brain does not mean that everything in the brain has become frozen in time. If that were the case, we could always bring people back just by restoring oxygen flow.
It's easy to say that "the cells just die," but that's an oversimplification. The "death" of our brain cells involves some very dramatic chemical changes. Very dramatic. In this case, it would not be surprising if, during a brush with brain death, we were to form a whole lot of incredibly vivid experiential memories. But we can't really say that this is the case. It's a possible avenue to investigate. The problem I have with people who are obsessed over being able to say, "I have the answer," is that I hear somewhere in there, "now, let's burn down the laboratory, since we don't need it anymore." That's always my reaction when people latch on to magical interpretations for things. I just get this sense that a lot of people just resent the idea of being in a state of uncertainty, and they have this craving for something that feels good, in a base chemical way, to substitute for a real explanation. A process of truly substantial inquiry tends to be biased toward using any conclusive statement as a stepping stone to further inquiry, not as a "finished product." I don't think that you are particularly inclined to treat it that way, but I think you can understand the reasons for my prejudice.
I've watched three of your videos so far, and I'll get to the shorter one here in a minute. Here's one of my own for you.
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/31437-conspiracy-test-brain-changes-in-near-death-experience-video.htm
And here is a quick article on brain waves.
http://www.nhahealth.com/science.htm
The thing is, the subject we are on, here, is being studied pretty intensively by some scientists. They are coming up with some pretty interesting results, when they look at this closely. |
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