again_with_this
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Age: 30
Posts: 780
Location: New Jersey, USA
|
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| TheSunAlsoRises wrote: | The Non-Autists looks at socialization(with others) as situational..... making decisions based on a multitude of factors such as emotion, logic, cost and benefit of what they say or do, offending someone, power dynamics(social economic status relative to someone else), etc and this is all done relatively quick. (Dynamic Socialization)
TheSunAlsoRises |
See, I actually understand dynamic socialization in theory, long before I'd even heard of AS, this seemed to be the way people operated. I got it, but I couldn't do it. This is a good example of something I understand in terms of what, but not in terms of how or why.
And in principle, I don't care if everybody's doing it, it seems downright wrong to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
TheSunAlsoRises
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 02, 2011
Posts: 1039
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| again_with_this wrote: | | TheSunAlsoRises wrote: | The Non-Autists looks at socialization(with others) as situational..... making decisions based on a multitude of factors such as emotion, logic, cost and benefit of what they say or do, offending someone, power dynamics(social economic status relative to someone else), etc and this is all done relatively quick. (Dynamic Socialization)
TheSunAlsoRises |
See, I actually understand dynamic socialization in theory, long before I'd even heard of AS, this seemed to be the way people operated. I got it, but I couldn't do it. This is a good example of something I understand in terms of what, but not in terms of how or why.
And in principle, I don't care if everybody's doing it, it seems downright wrong to me. |
Example(classic scenario ) : An overweight wife asks her husband is she fat. The husband sees that his wife is 20 pounds heavier than her ideal weight and her body mass index is 37 percent. The truth is THAT the husband's wife is FAT. The dilemma: In the past, the husband's wife reacted to the truth concerning her weight by taking it as a personal attack. Evidently, in high-school, she was bullied because a medical condition(unbeknown to her classmates) left her overweight and unable to participate in gym class at school. In addition, societal norms have shown THAT in this situation to tell the truth will be met with undesirable consequences in the form of a withholding of intimacy.
By knowing his wife's past and present mind states along with societal social standards, the husband chooses to answer the question with a resounding NO inorder to spare his wife grief and hurt her feelings.
The husband above could go on to marry a hundred women BUT depending upon his mind state and theirs will determine how he answers the question.
IF the husband's wife is a former athlete who wants to get back in shape; the husband's answer may be the truth given in a constructive manner inorder to encourage his wife to lose weight.
There are many different scenarios in which the literal truth can cause emotional/psychological harm at worse and at the very least make enemies.
This ability to understand the mind states of others...in relation to your own is the hallmark of ToM.
TheSunAlsoRises
Last edited by TheSunAlsoRises on Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
bernerbrau
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 08, 2012
Age: 31
Posts: 73
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Criticism. If an NT has a problem with me, they do one of 2 things: they either (a) "politely" ignore me and shut me out of their day-to-day or (b) "impolitely" call me out on a perceived personality flaw, and more or less tell me that I am not worth their time. (I suspect that the people in columns "a" and "b" are actually thinking the same thing.)
I mean come on, why is it so hard to tell me specifically what behaviors you take issue with and what steps I can take to improve on that, so that we can improve our working relationship? Why do you have to take the easy way out, assume I am "bad", and cut me loose? |
|
| Back to top |
|
bernerbrau
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 08, 2012
Age: 31
Posts: 73
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
And while we're on the subject.
The way "friendship" works with NTs, and how the transition between "stranger" and "friend" seems to be an immediate, almost irreversible decision for them.
My perception is a sliding scale, 0 being stranger, -10 being worst enemy, 10 being best friend, everyone starts at 0 and every interaction shifts that slider to the right or the left. This in turn makes NTs regard me as "capricious". |
|
| Back to top |
|
TheSunAlsoRises
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 02, 2011
Posts: 1039
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
bernerbrau wrote:
| Quote: | And while we're on the subject.
The way "friendship" works with NTs, and how the transition between "stranger" and "friend" seems to be an immediate, almost irreversible decision for them.
My perception is a sliding scale, 0 being stranger, -10 being worst enemy, 10 being best friend, everyone starts at 0 and every interaction shifts that slider to the right or the left. This in turn makes NTs regard me as "capricious".
|
What does friendship or friends mean to the individual? It depends on what a person values in a 'friend'. Also, you have to look in terms of sincerity and motives behind a friendship.
In addition, on your scale, some people will never move others will become mere acquaintances.
Are you familiar with the term 'instant friends' ? It means a person connects(share interests/life experiences/ similar nature or character/attraction etc) with another person upon first meeting and thereafter remain friends.
Your scale is a good loose interpretation of 'friendship rules' but there are a lot of social nuances that can influence how someone is rated on your scale.
TheSunAlsoRises |
|
| Back to top |
|
faerie_queene87
Snowy Owl
Joined: Sep 28, 2011
Posts: 162
Location: the TARDIS
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I had to do this
_________________
At age 24, 4 months and 10 days I was officially told: "Congratulations! You are an Aspie".
Now I write about it --> http://happilyclueless.tumblr.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
kirayng
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 13, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 745
Location: Maine, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| again_with_this wrote: | | kirayng wrote: | | I don't believe in being malicious for any reason, intended or not. |
So when someone is friendly with you, but malicious toward someone else, how does it make you feel about that person? |
When someone is friendly with me and malicious towards someone else, I feel badly for the other person and wish their mistreatment would end and further I would do whatever I could in the situation (which unfortunately is not much of anything nowadays because it used to get me in a lot of trouble). And when I said I don't believe in it, I meant that I don't think it's right, I should've clarified since I used a multiple-meaning phrase.
Also, since I know my perception of situations is not always accurate due to my AS, I let a lot slide that probably shouldn't only because when I used to get upset and react it wouldn't end well and often I was just misinterpreting the situation. Good example: my friend came to work at the restaurant I work in and I knew my Chef would be tough on him because my friend is lazy, careless and undisciplined. Chef would say things to my friend that I really didn't like, but I also knew that my Chef meant to get him to work better and not be mean (and I only knew this because I've known my Chef for a few years too). Funny enough, Chef is Aspie too lol. Anyway Hopefully I clarified this a bit, I haven't been back to the thread lately. |
|
| Back to top |
|
kirayng
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 13, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 745
Location: Maine, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bernerbrau wrote: | Criticism. If an NT has a problem with me, they do one of 2 things: they either (a) "politely" ignore me and shut me out of their day-to-day or (b) "impolitely" call me out on a perceived personality flaw, and more or less tell me that I am not worth their time. (I suspect that the people in columns "a" and "b" are actually thinking the same thing.)
I mean come on, why is it so hard to tell me specifically what behaviors you take issue with and what steps I can take to improve on that, so that we can improve our working relationship? Why do you have to take the easy way out, assume I am "bad", and cut me loose? |
Because of the herd mentality! You are no longer one of the herd, so you're outcast. It's so damn primal isn't it? bleh this confuses me too... and I can never "get back in" either...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
TheSunAlsoRises
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 02, 2011
Posts: 1039
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kirayng wrote: | | bernerbrau wrote: | Criticism. If an NT has a problem with me, they do one of 2 things: they either (a) "politely" ignore me and shut me out of their day-to-day or (b) "impolitely" call me out on a perceived personality flaw, and more or less tell me that I am not worth their time. (I suspect that the people in columns "a" and "b" are actually thinking the same thing.)
I mean come on, why is it so hard to tell me specifically what behaviors you take issue with and what steps I can take to improve on that, so that we can improve our working relationship? Why do you have to take the easy way out, assume I am "bad", and cut me loose? |
Because of the herd mentality! You are no longer one of the herd, so you're outcast. It's so damn primal isn't it? bleh this confuses me too... and I can never "get back in" either... |
It's possible THAT you did NOT pick up on the non-verbal (and subtle verbal ) social cues addressing the situation so they simply wrote you off. They were probably of the belief THAT you were not willing to change your behavior especially IF the issues appeared obvious to them. This is the way Non-Autistics were taught to socialize (and innately) communicate.
Once, again, this has to do with other factors discussed on this thread. Unfortunately, because of the society in which we live in; you have to be careful of how you address certain issues. Often-times, people(even your best friends) will ONLY take you a side and discuss a problem with your behavior IF it becomes detrimental to family, friends, or co-workers. Other than THAT(since your behavior may be acceptable BUT not desirable); you will get a negative label with whatever term seems to fit.
TheSunAlsoRises |
|
| Back to top |
|
Mdyar
emuegg
Joined: May 29, 2009
Posts: 2514
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Verdandi wrote: | | Mdyar wrote: | | There is the 'emperor wearing clothes phenomena' that I loathe or even detest. And, I find it quite unsettling that someone can throw in their lot with the "big guns'' even in the face of contrary evidence. The human heart( the seat of motivation) is tricky, and it perplexes me that one can emotionally invest into something, due to solely 'the liking it', because it is something they want to believe or' believe in it' -- the strangest human phenomena. I've noticed a volition or choice ,and why this overrides the other choice -- that choice in wanting evidence or more proof - is scary - it's like a drug - "the will of Landru." |
Emotions are related to the amygdala, ventral anterior cingulate, the nucleus accumbens, and likely other parts of the brain that are not coming to mind.
Motivation is handled by the prefrontal cortex.
The heart simply pumps blood through the cardiovascular system, working in tandem with the lungs to transport oxygen throughout your body, and eliminate CO2 waste.
Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying. |
Yes. The heart here is figurative.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
johnny77
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Age: 35
Posts: 2066
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| faerie_queene87 wrote: | I had to do this
|
Love it!!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
again_with_this
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Age: 30
Posts: 780
Location: New Jersey, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheSunAlsoRises wrote: | This ability to understand the mind states of others...in relation to your own is the hallmark of ToM.
TheSunAlsoRises |
Yeah, but I feel there is a difference between not having a theory of mind, and having a theory of mind but not agreeing with the other person's stance.
I can fully understand why the wife may be upset if she'd been bullied in school. I also understand that it's not "socially appropriate," to tell your wife she's fat. I'm not oblivious to this. But I disagree with the mindset. I have to patronize my wife because she's still hung up about bullying AND because society tells her she's supposed to get upset if her husband calls her fat??
I wonder, can these NTs have their own minds? Is theory of mind more correctly theory of hive mind, or 'groupthink'? And what if I understand it, but reject it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
again_with_this
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Age: 30
Posts: 780
Location: New Jersey, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheSunAlsoRises wrote: | | kirayng wrote: | | bernerbrau wrote: | Criticism. If an NT has a problem with me, they do one of 2 things: they either (a) "politely" ignore me and shut me out of their day-to-day or (b) "impolitely" call me out on a perceived personality flaw, and more or less tell me that I am not worth their time. (I suspect that the people in columns "a" and "b" are actually thinking the same thing.)
I mean come on, why is it so hard to tell me specifically what behaviors you take issue with and what steps I can take to improve on that, so that we can improve our working relationship? Why do you have to take the easy way out, assume I am "bad", and cut me loose? |
Because of the herd mentality! You are no longer one of the herd, so you're outcast. It's so damn primal isn't it? bleh this confuses me too... and I can never "get back in" either... |
It's possible THAT you did NOT pick up on the non-verbal (and subtle verbal ) social cues addressing the situation so they simply wrote you off. They were probably of the belief THAT you were not willing to change your behavior especially IF the issues appeared obvious to them. This is the way Non-Autistics were taught to socialize (and innately) communicate.
Once, again, this has to do with other factors discussed on this thread. Unfortunately, because of the society in which we live in; you have to be careful of how you address certain issues. Often-times, people(even your best friends) will ONLY take you a side and discuss a problem with your behavior IF it becomes detrimental to family, friends, or co-workers. Other than THAT(since your behavior may be acceptable BUT not desirable); you will get a negative label with whatever term seems to fit.
TheSunAlsoRises |
And again, I've seen this many times in action. I'm aware of how they think. It doesn't shock me, I get it. But I don't understand why. This idea that "They were probably of the belief THAT you were not willing to change your behavior especially IF the issues appeared obvious to them," is highly presumptuous on their part and reminds me of the old adage, 'when you ASSume...; It goes against my very nature to do such things. Yet, what I don't get is why they all do this, why they have no issues doing such, and why this is seen as a good thing, and why autistics are supposed to strive to emulate this crap. |
|
| Back to top |
|
again_with_this
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Age: 30
Posts: 780
Location: New Jersey, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| faerie_queene87 wrote: | I had to do this
|
I gotta say, I got a kick out of this. The irony, of course, is that the Most Interesting Man in the World is like a neurotypical x 10. |
|
| Back to top |
|
TheSunAlsoRises
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 02, 2011
Posts: 1039
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| again_with_this wrote: | | TheSunAlsoRises wrote: | This ability to understand the mind states of others...in relation to your own is the hallmark of ToM.
TheSunAlsoRises |
Yeah, but I feel there is a difference between not having a theory of mind, and having a theory of mind but not agreeing with the other person's stance.
I can fully understand why the wife may be upset if she'd been bullied in school. I also understand that it's not "socially appropriate," to tell your wife she's fat. I'm not oblivious to this. But I disagree with the mindset. I have to patronize my wife because she's still hung up about bullying AND because society tells her she's supposed to get upset if her husband calls her fat??
I wonder, can these NTs have their own minds? Is theory of mind more correctly theory of hive mind, or 'groupthink'? And what if I understand it, but reject it? |
The way in which you formed your question i was given the impression THAT you did not understand the hows and whys. I explained this to you in an example YET you came forward to basically say you understand the hows and whys BUT you refuse to go along with IT because you disagree with the mindset.
My contention is ToM exists in Autists BUT it's disrupted. You can disagree with another's mindset(and) as you well know; it may not necessarily change it. This is the point of ToM; someone else having thoughts, feelings, and desires outside your own then making a decision based on this information as well as your OWN.
IF you choose to willfully disregard social dynamics based on relevant information than more than likely you will suffer the consequences based on the realities of (another person's mindset) and/or societal power dynamics.
TheSunAlsoRises
Last edited by TheSunAlsoRises on Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
