how falling birth rates will get fixed in the end?

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And I suppose Muslim kids calling white students "white slut" isn't punished as often as, say, a white child calling Muslim kids "Paki bastards"?

However, many sharia courts carry out their practices in secret, behind closed doors. What goes on there? They could be sentencing people to death, or they could be arranging marriages for children. At the moment, a surprising amount of Moroccan men find the love of their life in a village in Morocco they've never actually visited, but where their parents have contacts. Even a brochure by the Dutch government (link) assumes most of them have never lived with their partners before, and many have just met them. The first time they meet their wife is at the airport. And that's not incidental - thousands of people a year. Some of the brilliant measures the government has finally decided to take:

* Attempting to ban marriage between cousins;
* Raising the age for recognized marriage partners up from 15;
* Ceasing to allow polygamy;
* Introducing actual standards in the test taken before they're allowed to move here. New standards include literacy - oh, the horror.



Actually, even in their social and religious approach, islamic schools are a different thing altogether. We don't have school uniforms in this country, but in islamic schools, girls are supposed to dress "appropriately", which means wearing a hijab and preferably a dress - a black dress, in more extreme cases. They've also been known to tell homosexual students they were unnatural, or possessed by demons, and for sending them to North Africa for religious treatment. Tolerance of islamic schools is tolerance of intolerance.



Perhaps we're a few steps ahead of the United Kingdom here. Homosexuals have literally been chased out of their houses by groups of muslims, and local authorities refused to do anything about it. Then they started going after jews, and once again, no response. Individual policemen want to do something, and people have formed a militia in one place, but police have orders to treat reports of these things like they'd treat a report about a stolen bicycle. "Do you have any evidence? Can you name the individuals who did this?" The same type of gentlemen also nearly murdered a pregnant woman for dating a non-Moroccan.

In theoretical terms, looking solely at their religious books, they're equally bad. In practical terms, the adherents of Islam take the cake for violent opposition to homosexuality.



The difference between blasphemy laws and islamic standards is that blasphemy laws generally aren't followed anymore. They rank right in between steam engine regulations and laws against insulting the monarchy. In islamic standards, the last person I know of who was executed (read: brutally assassinated) for that in this country was Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in 2004 for insulting Muhammad ("and therefore deserving execution").



This is apologism. "Yes, they might assault women in broad daylight - yes, they might have informal sharia courts - yes, they might force girls to wear hijabs in state-funded schools - yes, they might refer lesbians for religious treatment - yes, they might force thousands of women to stay locked up at home - yes, they have murdered women for wanting a divorce in the past - but at least they're not the Taliban!"



Below, a journalist attempts to attend a demonstration by radical muslims. He's intimidated and threatened, and then he's dragged off by police.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFZemMBLM64[/youtube]

Below, they try to have a debate about modernising Islam in the west.
The people organising the debate have invited women without headscarves. Hilarity ensues.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJS6IypEVR8[/youtube]

Below, a man tries to argue with islamists, and is dragged off by police in plain clothes.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3_GbHNSp54[/youtube]



That's an enormous group, then. They must span thousands upon thousands of square miles, because the exact same thing happens to a lot of people here, and anywhere from here to the German border with Poland. And yes, it's almost all muslims who behave in this way. Interesting, is it not?

Nope. Especially when they say it in their own language.

HDM, I'll get round to replying to your post later.

Interesting post from HisDivineMajesty.

It really is shocking how much trouble that Islamists (not all Muslims, don't be ridiculous, and not a majority either, but a minority - not small - that are extreme elements) are causing in places like the Netherlands and the UK. I think it would be instructive for a certain Canadian moderator to come to the UK and tour our charming Muslim (and corresponding neighbouring poor white) ghettos so she can get a full understanding of the rich cultural tapestry that mass, uncontrolled immigration without integration has brought to my country, and quite a few others as well.

I suggest Longsight in Manchester for her first stop. Not too far away from puddingmouse either.

Simply wrong.


10% is quite high, it is well above the % of people who are Muslim nationally (4%). 80% is obviously much higher though.

"White slut" is clearly not as bad an insult as "Paki bastard". "Bastard" is a bigger insult than "slut", and "Paki" has connotations that "white" does not. However, from my experience both groups would be punished equally if there were an exchange of insults like that.

...That's really not a good way to judge whether or not you have a high percentage.

If 2% of the nation was Muslim and 5% of your school was Muslim, would you still consider that high?

Relatively high, but not absolutely high. I think 10% is a significant proportion at any rate (I never said "high", I just said significant). I reckon it's more like 30% in the community, though obviously it is hard to tell if someone is Muslim.

No. Whenever I encounter these people, they're muslims. Mostly North Africans, and mostly Moroccans, although there are also some Turks who are involved in this.



Actually, that's not really true. It's meant in a racist way, and it gives them a reason. "If you're a slut, you can't say no," is something I've heard some of them say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_%28psychology%29

In Dutch, Moroccans have developed several racist remarks against white Europeans. "Kankerblanken", for example, because the word for cancer rhymes with the word for "white people". And yes, a large amount of them - perhaps a majority of young men - refer to us as a cancer while we're paying for their education, health care, welfare, retirement and we're paying police to keep them from doing even more things wrong. I'll repeat this in case you haven't heard: a majority, a literal majority, of almost-exclusively islamic Moroccan men have been arrested by the time they turn 22. And that's not small theft we're talking about.

Perhaps we misunderstood each other, when you said "all Muslims" I thought you meant "100% of Muslims" rather than "entirely Muslim".

Muslims can be racist towards white people, but "Paki" has a history associated with it similar to words like "n****r"- it means more than calling someone "white". I don't know how much meaning is loaded by "Kankerblanken", but "white slut" simply isn't as insulting as "Paki bastard".

Studies show that 54% of Moroccan males commit a crime before the age of 24 in the Netherlands, so yes, a majority. The most common crime amongst this group is shoplifting, so yes, it does tend to be small thefts. However, a few small things to note: being arrested does not mean you committed a crime, so you could argue that the Moroccans are suffering from discrimination at the hands of the police. Also, immigrants tend to be poorer, and the poor tend to commit more crimes, particularly petty theft. The study didn't control for wealth. Also, the study did not factor in criminals who plead guilty in order to get a reduced sentence- perhaps Dutch youths are likely to do this whereas Moroccans are more likely to contest charges.

http://www.forum.nl/Portals/Internation ... s-2010.pdf

If you go to "Social Participation" and then "Crime", you'll see that the native Dutch are just as likely to commit violent crime and more likely to commit vandalism etc. than the Moroccan immigrants, who are FAR more likely to commit property crime (i.e. stealing).

Turks are more likely to commit violent crime, about as likely to commit property crime as the Dutch, and less likely to commit vandalism.

I don't think bastard is a worse insult that slut. Bastard simply mean illegitimate child, which is hardly even an insult when you think about it. Slut is a sexist word and a shaming moral judgement.

It isn't the dictionary meaning which matters, it is the weight of the word. "n****r" stems from "ignorant", but you wouldn't use it as readily as you would call someone ignorant because the weight and history behind it make it mean so much more than that. "Bastard" is similarly a word that has a long history and was a shameful thing a long time ago, but like "n****r" it isn't a word that is used simply to mean what it literally means any more. "Slut" doesn't mean anything other than what it says on the tin. "Shaming moral judgement"? No more than "bastard" these days, both have little literal meaning now that pre-marital sex is such an accepted part of society.

I think slut implies that women are somehow dirty because they have sex. It is sexist because it's used as a way of passing judgement on a woman's perceived sexual behaviour. It's hardly ever used against men. Like there's something inherently disgusting about female sexuality specifically.

Bastard is just an archaic word that's stuck around as a generic moderately-strong insult. Even George Orwell, writing in the 30s, said it's not even really that insulting.

White slut is, in fact, at least equally insulting. Kankerblanken, depending on the tone and emotion, can mean anything from "damn whites" to "whites are a cancer upon society". We are, in fact, second-class citizens in our own country, both in public measures and in the tone we're forced to accept. Geert Wilders was put on trial for remarks about Islam. A man who said he needed to destroy democracy and that all non-muslims were junkies and prostitutes was allowed to do so in public, next to a monument to peace and freedom, and a man who argued against him was dragged off by police. Sometimes, they even make clear their intention to exterminate native Europeans when they're taunting, which is something they do very often. Other taunts: "I'll rape your mother/sister/daughter/wife", "I'll stab the first jew I see", "we should deal with you like we did in the past" and "Islam will destroy you."

These are the people I don't want living here. These are the people who should be put on the first plane to Rabat and left to their own devices upon arrival. Even in Morocco, these people are known as trouble-makers, and when temporary labour contracts were signed, Moroccan authorities were very eager to sign these people off so they could get rid of them for a few months to a few years. Imagine how pleasantly-surprised they were when leftists had decided these poor people were victims of society and should have the right to stay here and to "have beneficial mutual exchanges of culture", which effectively meant they can demolish a few churches to build mosques and they get their own neighbourhoods with a hidden parallel society.



Actually, those figures have been revised once more. It's 65% before the age of 22 now. And they're six times as likely as native Europeans to use the social welfare net for extended amounts of time. It's an actual minority that's law-abiding and hard-working, but saying they're a problematic group in society means you're a racist. "White people also commit crimes!" was one of the more laughable comments. Yes, but they're less than half as likely to commit crimes.



No, it can't be argued that they're suffering from discrimination. The police want to start more effective initiatives to target that group specifically, as they're both extremely visible to ordinary citizens and extremely over-represented in crime, welfare and school dropouts. However, that's racist, unlike asking for someone who isn't white for a high-ranking police position. They're also much more prone to schizophrenia (4-6 times as likely as any other group) and mental retardation (80% of mentally-retarded children in Amsterdam are from Morocco or Turkey). These are offered as actual scientific explanations for their high poverty and crime rates and low education rates: "due to inbreeding, their average intelligence is significantly lower and they often suffer from mental conditions, meaning it's harder for them to get by in education - an effect deepened by them being stuck between two different cultures."



There are several minorities who are under-represented in crime despite similar living conditions. Thing is, Moroccans are a group that has become steadily worse, while Chinese people, Indonesian people (protestant Moluccans, mainly), Spanish people and Italian people have had no such pattern. In fact, all of these groups have integrated and started earning a lot of money and having proper education within two generations. Moroccans, meanwhile, are at their fifth generation, still form the bottom of society (in part due to their open refusal to attend school in many cases) and have actually become gradually worse since the first generation.

The rest is pure speculation, as there are no figures that I know of on pleading guilty or contesting charges with regards to culture and ethnicity.

Sharia law can and does right now today supersede national law in practice.

Let us take a typical example.

A muslim woman from Pakistan is bought into this country for marriage and doesn't speak a word of English. Her husband abuses her. She seeks help and advice not from the police or social care system but from the mosque and the informal sharia court.

Do you think the outcome is going to be identical to a white English woman unhappy with her husband beating the crap out of her?

When was the last time a white English woman turned to self immolation as the only way out of an abusive marriage?

If justice is served entirely outside the mainstream legal system in a secretive closed community, then the legal system will never get involved either to inform a person of their rights or to administer justice.



You have yourself just criticised Islamic schools by saying they suck. You can't say they suck and then say you are not allowed to say they suck unless you want to dismantle the whole faith school system. You just have said that they suck so clearly it is possible to say that they suck...

For a start Islamic schools are not inspected by OFSTED, they have their own inspection system which does not report to anyone other than the schools themselves. It is called the Bridge Schools Inspectorate. Please note they also inspect extremist Christian schools, the ones that teach creationism instead of science...

The superiority of religious schools is almost certainly a myth, the 'quality' almost always comes from selection of students. This concentrates troubled students in the non-religious schools and makes the religious schools look better than they are.

Finally I'm perfectly happy to remove religion from the school system, brainwashing should not be part of the taxpayer funded education system.



I mean exactly what I said, a telephone survey of British muslims was carried out by a respected non-partisan professional survey organisation with no axe to grind. When asked about homosexuality, every single one of the 500 muslim respondents condemned it, without exception.



In that case you should spend a lot more time with a dictionary.

Go and look up some definitions of the word 'radical'

1. Characterized by departure from tradition; innovative or progressive
2. Relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough
3. A person who advocates thorough or complete political or social reform; a member of a political party or part of a party pursuing such aims.

If you reject the cultural norms of society, the legal system and the education system and decide to live completely separate from it, you are by definition a radical. Living inside of a system and occasional voicing opinions that differ significantly from the mainstream is enough to qualify for the 'radical' label. Islam in Britain has gone a very, very long past that.



We don't have blasphemy laws. Keep up at the back...




Erm, I mean the fact that the UN declaration of Human Rights was declared 'unislamic' and 'incompatible with sharia law' by the OIC and the member states of the OIC instead decided to implement the Cairo declaration of human rights in islam.

You can't get away with saying that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture because it is entirely, 100% percent a religious issue.