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archraphael
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02 Aug 2012, 7:42 pm

i wrote this in another article in more detail. this is the most fascinating murder case i have ever seen, probably because, by the look in his eyes i can tell he CLEARLY had/has psychosis... no if's or but's.. but certainly AND's.! !

in court he looked like he was drugged up on antipsychotics.
he probably has initially a personality disorder like sociopathy or anti-social personality.

ive met people who became schizophrenic who normally have a very borderline or talk-back type personality, and some who are nice and insighful people.

he is either mildly schizophrenic, or very likely developed amphetamine or anti-depressant related psychosis... not uncommon...
i have had psychosis--it is very gradient and fluid like autistm variations---autism was also a defined feature of the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. in my own experience with pychosis i have days where i am completely hallucination/delusion free, to whee i am slightly hearing voices and having delusional ideation, to where i am a ranting raving lunatic with no sense of organization or short term memory... he probably reached a serverly delsuional thinking stage but somehow remained lucid and coordinated enough to buy weapons and carry out murder. when a person is delusional they can fixate on an idea quite well and it is also quite possible to manifest the idea.

but again first and foremost i can see a personality disorder in him. he seems like an actual "joker" type to me. but just look at the blank stare in his eyes in his teenage photos. that is not asperger, that is psychosis ready to attack and hijack his brain.



Mayel
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03 Aug 2012, 2:50 am

archraphael wrote:
in court he looked like he was drugged up on antipsychotics.
he probably has initially a personality disorder like sociopathy or anti-social personality.

ive met people who became schizophrenic who normally have a very borderline or talk-back type personality, and some who are nice and insighful people.

he is either mildly schizophrenic, or very likely developed amphetamine or anti-depressant related psychosis... not uncommon...
i have had psychosis--it is very gradient and fluid like autistm variations---autism was also a defined feature of the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. in my own experience with pychosis i have days where i am completely hallucination/delusion free, to whee i am slightly hearing voices and having delusional ideation, to where i am a ranting raving lunatic with no sense of organization or short term memory... he probably reached a serverly delsuional thinking stage but somehow remained lucid and coordinated enough to buy weapons and carry out murder. when a person is delusional they can fixate on an idea quite well and it is also quite possible to manifest the idea.

but again first and foremost i can see a personality disorder in him. he seems like an actual "joker" type to me. but just look at the blank stare in his eyes in his teenage photos. that is not asperger, that is psychosis ready to attack and hijack his brain.


Where do you see anti-social PD? Anyways, thanks for your insight about psychosis and medication. That's very intresting.

In this article about "spotting threats" I found this passage:
Quote:
Holmes, 24, doesn’t appear to have made many friends during his year in Colorado. He had also applied to the University of Arizona neurology program but was rejected because he had a lack of affect in his interview, showing no excitement or passion about the program he wanted to join, according to people familiar with his application.


Lack of affect.......that's something.

Also, this is a comment on the site about that literary piece "Losing James Holmes":
Quote:
By the way, he was never teased to the point where he got bullied. He was geeky because he was smart, true. Some people made fun of him because of that but he was not an outcast. Everyone gets teased a little in their lifetime. He was introverted. He was smart. He was quiet. BUT he had friends. He would talk to people. He was athletic. He wouldn't date not because no one wanted to be with him but because HE showed no interest in dating. There were a ton of geeks at his high school because it was a school that really focused on academics. A little teasing is no excuse to kill people. He never worked at McDonalds. He couldn't find a job anywhere other than McDonalds. That does not mean he worked there. The fast food chain itself said he never worked there. That's the main reason why he went to grad school.
I honestly do not know where everyone is getting this "he was bullied" crap. He wasn't! He was teased just as much as any average teenager was teased. Like I said earlier, he wasn't a loner. He had friends. He hung out with people. He played sports. He wasn't the most outgoing person, but he also wasn't someone who had absolutely no friends. He was nice. He wasn't an angry person. I am introverted. I have a few really good friends and with them I am very outgoing but with people I don't know I am quiet. That is how James was. I had never heard of anyone being mean to him to a point where it got out of hand. As a matter of fact, a lot of people were in awe of how smart he was! If you will blame this on anything blame it on a mental illness, and even that does not mean he should get a 'get out of jail' pass. He deserves to pay for what he does, but please people need to quit blaming this on him being bullied!


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Surfman
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03 Aug 2012, 7:29 am

What ever happened to the schizoid label??

has it been broken down to 8-10 different sub groups now or sumtin?



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03 Aug 2012, 7:58 am

Interesting post Mayel. Thanks for sharing----I never really thought it sounded like he had been bullied. It still sounds like he had a lot of Aspie traits. I am thinking more and more it is schizophrenia (or maybe drugs)



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03 Aug 2012, 8:24 am

angelbear wrote:
Interesting post Mayel. Thanks for sharing----I never really thought it sounded like he had been bullied. It still sounds like he had a lot of Aspie traits. I am thinking more and more it is schizophrenia (or maybe drugs)

I didn't think he had been bullied, too. You don't have to be bullied to be or become isolated, emotionally or otherwise. We also don't know who this person who commented is anyway, which kind of relationship he/she had.
I'm also inclined to think that he may have paranoid schizophrenia or Delusions/Paranoia because both let you plan things and be cognitively competent while those delusions, hallucinations...etc., don't go away if left untreated and can become even stronger (since without a social net, nobody will check on reality for you) so as to trigger taking actions in their reality. Nonetheless, I'm inclined to think alienation and resulting rage, as well as general stress, may have taken its part here, too.
But I also think that medication could have had effects. According to his dating profiles he didn't do drugs....if that's true,then drugs are not a possibility.

There's said to be a schizophrenia spectrum and schizophrenia shares similarities with ASD in its negative symptoms. Although they can be comorbid if ASD has been diagnosed/present since childhood which means that ASD symptoms had to precede SZ symptoms. The SZ symptoms have to entail hallucinations or delusions to be comorbid with ASD, as well....
Anyhow, other conditions like schizoid PD could be possible, too (at least as underlying condition). It may be more than one condition which he has.
I've found this article which I found intresting:
WSJ


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03 Aug 2012, 8:32 am

Well that's a relief its not the people with aspergers you have to look out for, its those schizophrenics :roll:

I guess I am confused as to why everyone here gets all worked up about the possibility the guy had AS...because oh no people might think people with aspergers are all potential murderers. But if it gets shifted over to schizophrenia it's all good? I don't know that just seems to be the attitude I see.......'as long as he had schizophrenia and not AS then it's all good because people wont think badly of people with AS, they'll just think badly of people with schizophrenia.' Hopefully that is not how most here feel about it, and I am just getting the wrong impression.

Point being blaming it on any specific disorder is probably a bad idea.......if he does have a disorder then yes it could have been a factor, but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.


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03 Aug 2012, 8:53 am

dp



Last edited by Surfman on 03 Aug 2012, 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Aug 2012, 8:53 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Hopefully that is not how most here feel about it, and I am just getting the wrong impression.


Its the right impression.

I friend of mine became psychotic recently. I had to speak to authorities about him. He was getting off on scaring others and weirding out people IRL. Luckily some close friends intervened and persistently spoke to him about his state of mind

A bit later he self admitted into a mental institution. He took too many recreational drugs.... a lot of cannabis.... :roll: but a naturally autistic disposition was his earliest noticeable delineation....



Mayel
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03 Aug 2012, 8:58 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well that's a relief its not the people with aspergers you have to look out for, its those schizophrenics :roll:

I guess I am confused as to why everyone here gets all worked up about the possibility the guy had AS...because oh no people might think people with aspergers are all potential murderers. But if it gets shifted over to schizophrenia it's all good? I don't know that just seems to be the attitude I see.......'as long as he had schizophrenia and not AS then it's all good because people wont think badly of people with AS, they'll just think badly of people with schizophrenia.' Hopefully that is not how most here feel about it, and I am just getting the wrong impression.

Point being blaming it on any specific disorder is probably a bad idea.......if he does have a disorder then yes it could have been a factor, but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.

I hope you're not talking about me because I don't care whether he had ASD or Schizophrenia, or some kind of PD or whatever else there is. At least I don't care as in swaying my opinion in one way or another because I don't want to be associated with someone who committed a murderous act (In fact, I've been stigmatised because of the mediatic image of a spree shooter without mental health having been an issue in this association.)
I'm just theorising about mental health because I'm interested (maybe obsessed). But I'm perfectly aware that their is much more to things like this, not just individual psychological pathologizing but also societal responsibility, maybe on a local level but it may also tell us something about the state of the world, in all its intricacy from personal circumstances, to politico-economic systems, to culture, to society's standards and views...and so on.

I also would never say that mental illness equals violence. I also like to study peace and conflict research and I can assure you mental health issues is a factor that's much more associated with victims of conflict than perpetrators.


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03 Aug 2012, 9:01 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.


I think the reason schizophrenia has such a bad rep is that there actually is a higher incidence of murder......

I know many people who hate labelling groups

like being intoxicated all the time doesnt always make you a good judge

neither does youth qualify much in the way of experience



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03 Aug 2012, 9:10 am

Surfman wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Hopefully that is not how most here feel about it, and I am just getting the wrong impression.


Its the right impression.

I friend of mine became psychotic recently. I had to speak to authorities about him. He was getting off on scaring others and weirding out people IRL. Luckily some close friends intervened and persistently spoke to him about his state of mind

A bit later he self admitted into a mental institution. He took too many recreational drugs.... a lot of cannabis.... :roll: but a naturally autistic disposition was his earliest noticeable delineation....


Well now I am a little bit confused...because your friend became psychotic and you felt the need to consult the authorities, all people with schizophrenia should be looked at as murderous time bombs waiting to explode? If anything the last thing schizophrenic people need is more stigma about their condition...Don't they have enough problems already? considering the psychosis and all. I mean all stigma like that does is lead to worse assumptions and probably worse psychiatric treatment which if anything would be a contributing factor to the few schizophrenic individuals that might end up losing it and doing harm.


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03 Aug 2012, 9:15 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Point being blaming it on any specific disorder is probably a bad idea.......if he does have a disorder then yes it could have been a factor, but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.


This is an inevitable artifact of our legal system. The insanity defense exists so defense lawyers are obligated to use it any time there is even a remote possibility of it working. To refuse to use it if it might work would be negligence towards their client. This means tyhey must spend the entire trial quite literally blaming the crime entirely on the specific disorder rather than just having it be a mere factor among many. Have that happen enough times (even though it usually doesn't work) and the idea that a mental illness could cause a person to commit violence will be firmly entrenched in the culture.

But consider the alternative. Suppose such a defense did not exist, that people were held criminally responsible for everything they did regardless of their state of mind. That would be unfair to people who do not have rational control over their actions. In order to help rather than jail people who have lost control of their minds, we have to keep alive the concept that in certain situations it is possible to lose control of your mind and become dangerous due to something not in your conscious control. So we are in this bind. Either we say there is no such thing as losing conscious control through no fault of your own (as opposed to losing control through a deliberate action like taking meth) or we allow that sometimes people can't control what they do through no fault of their own. And once we do that (as we have done), people will always be wondering which mental states can lead to this.

People with any given mental disorder are statistically unlikely to become dangerous. But this does not mean that it's impossible for a mental disorder(or a prescribed drug- thank you Surfman!) to cause somebody to become dangerous.



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03 Aug 2012, 9:21 am

Surfman wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.


I think the reason schizophrenia has such a bad rep is that there actually is a higher incidence of murder......

I know many people who hate labelling groups

like being intoxicated all the time doesnt always make you a good judge

neither does youth qualify much in the way of experience


I don't know in a recent psychology class I took it was said schizophrenic people are typically less violent then the general population and more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than perpetrators of it. Not to mention I am kind of of the opinion if the 'murder' is committed when they are in a state of psychosis its not what I really see as a murder since a murder usually involves intent.

I mean if someone is convinced they are being attacked or going to be attacked by someone.....they will react accordingly, only issue is people with psychosis might be convinced of that when it is not the case which could lead to murder in a state of psychosis. But to me that is very different than murdering someone. And why do I even care about this distinction......because with my PTSD when it gets set off badly Its pretty scary because its very hard to keep a good grip on 'reality' and keep from doing stupid/harmful things. But I don't like it, I would like not having to worry about potentially hurting others if I get set off. I imagine people who experience psychosis might feel similarly when not experiencing the psychosis...I doubt its something they enjoy.

And how is 'being intoxicated all the time doesn't always make you a good judge.' a generalization? That sounds like a fact because I am pretty sure its true that being intoxicated all the time might interfere with your judgement.


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03 Aug 2012, 9:43 am

Janissy wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Point being blaming it on any specific disorder is probably a bad idea.......if he does have a disorder then yes it could have been a factor, but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.


This is an inevitable artifact of our legal system. The insanity defense exists so defense lawyers are obligated to use it any time there is even a remote possibility of it working. To refuse to use it if it might work would be negligence towards their client. This means tyhey must spend the entire trial quite literally blaming the crime entirely on the specific disorder rather than just having it be a mere factor among many. Have that happen enough times (even though it usually doesn't work) and the idea that a mental illness could cause a person to commit violence will be firmly entrenched in the culture.

But consider the alternative. Suppose such a defense did not exist, that people were held criminally responsible for everything they did regardless of their state of mind. That would be unfair to people who do not have rational control over their actions. In order to help rather than jail people who have lost control of their minds, we have to keep alive the concept that in certain situations it is possible to lose control of your mind and become dangerous due to something not in your conscious control. So we are in this bind. Either we say there is no such thing as losing conscious control through no fault of your own (as opposed to losing control through a deliberate action like taking meth) or we allow that sometimes people can't control what they do through no fault of their own. And once we do that (as we have done), people will always be wondering which mental states can lead to this.

People with any given mental disorder are statistically unlikely to become dangerous. But this does not mean that it's impossible for a mental disorder(or a prescribed drug- thank you Surfman!) to cause somebody to become dangerous.


I know that mental disorders can cause someone to become dangerous in a sense....My issue is more with the idea someone would be seen and treated as a potential murder simply for having a disorder before they even do anything. I mean something tells me the more you treat someone like a potential murderer the more likely they might lose it and murder someone someday. I mean yes it is true mental illness can contribute to violence....but then I think the better approach would be to help people who are struggling with mental illnesses before they reach that point. Not stigmatize, ostracize and alienate them which society in my opinion does a great job of.

I mean people wonder why I have such a negative opinion of mainstream society.....well that is kind of what happens when you're different as a child so people treat you like a freak including teachers and other students. I mean maybe if people had been a little more kind I wouldn't feel that way. I mean for example in highschool I didn't have friends or anything and was not really enjoying life...and mostly listened to my headphones unless i was in class with the teacher talking. I mean sure it kinda sucked but I didn't really think too much of it I was more concerned with just trying to get done with school so I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore. But apparently in the minds of other kids and probably teachers I was the 'exploding time bomb' waiting to happen.....so when someone actually did come into the school with a gun and eventually killed someone this one girl verbalized what was already in peoples minds 'I'm surprised it wasn't you.' And did people warm up towards me and try to include me as part of the group effected by the tragedy after this? No I was still excluded.

Anyways point is it does do damage to assume someone who fits a certain 'profile' is a potential murderer waiting to happen...at the same time it is true mental illness can contribute to someone reacting violently but that knowledge should be used as a reason why if someone seems to be really down or struggling with their mental state you should help them not kick them while they're down.....I mean if people truly believe mental illness makes one more likely to commit violence why then would they want to push a mentally ill person in that direction via negative stigma and treatment of them before they've even done anything wrong.


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Mayel
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03 Aug 2012, 10:09 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean yes it is true mental illness can contribute to violence....but then I think the better approach would be to help people who are struggling with mental illnesses before they reach that point. Not stigmatize, ostracize and alienate them which society in my opinion does a great job of.

Agree.

Sweetleaf wrote:

Anyways point is it does do damage to assume someone who fits a certain 'profile' is a potential murderer waiting to happen...at the same time it is true mental illness can contribute to someone reacting violently but that knowledge should be used as a reason why if someone seems to be really down or struggling with their mental state you should help them not kick them while they're down.....I mean if people truly believe mental illness makes one more likely to commit violence why then would they want to push a mentally ill person in that direction via negative stigma and treatment of them before they've even done anything wrong.

This isn't about profiles which could lead to violence. This is more about a case that already happened and it's about the why (At least for me). And I think there needs to be more research done on the whys of such cases, exactly to extract knowledge and use it to help people instead of throwing insults without any knowledge and be done with it (because this is what is happening and will happen). That's a societal black and white thinking pattern: You're evil or good. You're crazy or normal.
I think it's difficult for such information not to be used for stigmatization but unfortunately, many will do this (just look at most media-outlets, it's about sensationalism there, which means that painting stuff as negatively as possible will get you more viewers and readers).

Talking about all this, this blog post and especially its comment section ruminate on this themes:
inside the minds


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03 Aug 2012, 11:25 am

Mayel wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean yes it is true mental illness can contribute to violence....but then I think the better approach would be to help people who are struggling with mental illnesses before they reach that point. Not stigmatize, ostracize and alienate them which society in my opinion does a great job of.

Agree.

Sweetleaf wrote:

Anyways point is it does do damage to assume someone who fits a certain 'profile' is a potential murderer waiting to happen...at the same time it is true mental illness can contribute to someone reacting violently but that knowledge should be used as a reason why if someone seems to be really down or struggling with their mental state you should help them not kick them while they're down.....I mean if people truly believe mental illness makes one more likely to commit violence why then would they want to push a mentally ill person in that direction via negative stigma and treatment of them before they've even done anything wrong.

This isn't about profiles which could lead to violence. This is more about a case that already happened and it's about the why (At least for me). And I think there needs to be more research done on the whys of such cases, exactly to extract knowledge and use it to help people instead of throwing insults without any knowledge and be done with it (because this is what is happening and will happen). That's a societal black and white thinking pattern: You're evil or good. You're crazy or normal.
I think it's difficult for such information not to be used for stigmatization but unfortunately, many will do this (just look at most media-outlets, it's about sensationalism there, which means that painting stuff as negatively as possible will get you more viewers and readers).

Talking about all this, this blog post and especially its comment section ruminate on this themes:
inside the minds


Yeah why do you think I hate the mass media....that is all they are about. And they also never know when enough is enough......I mean do they really think someone who's gone through something traumatic wants to sit there and be interrogated by some reporter with a shallow smile on their face trying to get 'the good story.' And that's what they do. But yeah I suppose as long as there are humans around there will be stigma.


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