What is the difference between NT introvert and an aspie?

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XFilesGeek
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03 May 2013, 11:25 am

Aspergers is an impairment.

Introversion is not.


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03 May 2013, 12:56 pm

I sometimes feel like I'm just an introverted NT, because I can read non-verbal social cues, I can understand when somebody is joking with me, and I can read other people's moods, etc etc etc. I feel like I am just an NT with shyness and social phobia and social anxiety, all confined together, making social situations difficult to be in.

When I'm in a social situation, I can easily sit and observe everybody around me, what they are thinking by their body language, how they are feeling, what they are talking about, what their next intentions are, etc. I sometimes think of things to say that are appropriate to the conversation, but there are a few things that hold me back. I fear that I might be mistaken for butting in instead of joining in. This has happened before, but the people that made me feel humiliated were a bit catty anyway, but even so, people with low self-esteem and social phobia issues don't need that said to them and so will obviously feel knocked back. People with higher self-esteem and better abilities to be nice and make friends (especially those with ''attractive personality'') will more likely let small rows like that ride over them, but not all of us are like that.

Anyway, back to the point - yes, I feel just like a typically shy NT with social anxiety. But I still can't call myself non-Aspie because I have the other typical AS symptoms. I get madly obsessed with a certain thing and have urges to get myself involved in the obsession, then I end up getting so involved that I get myself into trouble, even though I'm aware of this I still can't help myself. Also I have frequent tantrums, throwing myself on the floor and screaming and crying and getting all angry and stressed, usually due to feeling overwhelmed about things happening all at once. And I have behavioural problems at home, like not coping with uncertainty or becoming agitated easily when there's activity going on, but feeling too anxious about moving out and living completely independently. Also the thought of working full time is daunting for me, not because I'm lazy, but for other emotional reasons. And I've always had sensory issues with sounds too, which do affect my day-to-day living. All of those say I have AS, but it's just funny I don't have the stereotypical social issues most ASD people have, although I am still socially awkward.


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04 May 2013, 9:03 pm

MrStewart wrote:
The introverted NT possesses the innate social instincts commonly considered normal. Including; has always maintained normal eye contact since childhood, understands timing and turn-taking without difficulty, understands subtext/irony/sarcasm, has a normal vocabulary for their age and education, has no stims or ticks, naturally varies vocal tonality in conversation. Asperger's involves an active thought process in social settings far beyond the neurotypical range. This is because people with AS do not have the requisite social instincts of neurotypical cognitive profile. Constant analyzing of the situation due to lack of normal instinct.

There are also all of the diagnostic criteria not related to social interaction. Autism spectrum is a fairly specific set of atypical thought process, social impairments, and often learning disabilities (particular subjects). Social impairment is only one component. And true, as posted above, introversion is not always the social style or desire of autistic peoples.


I very much like your response here.



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05 May 2013, 1:45 pm

lazamb_girl wrote:
I am curious as to what the difference in terms of thought process/behavior between introverted NTs and those with aspergers/High functioning Autism.


Please note, the below is a rewrite of my original posting (as my original response was missing some stuff.. Sorry about that.

I was diagnosed with Aspergers last month. Before learning about Aspergers, I spent > 30 years assuming I was just a very introverted person. I first learned about introversion when taking the Meyers Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI). I took the MTBI test twice. First, in 1990 (at the age of 27). My results were INTJ (I=17; N=13; T=57; J=17). Then, in 1997 (at the age of 34). My results were INTJ (I=55; N=27; T=55; J=47). I subsequently spent a lot of time reading about MBTI and Introversion.

Then, in December 2012 I learned about Aspergers. It sounded like a better fit (based upon the behavioral symptoms). A family member (who worked in the mental health field) suggested my symptoms could be driven by other things. So, I spent 4 months reading everything I could about various “conditions” with behavioral symptoms that were close or adjacent to Aspergers: Extreme Introversion, Shyness, Nonverbal Learning Disorder, Giftedness, Sensory Processing Disorder, Social Anxiety, Generalized Anxiety, Avoidant Personality, Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder and Schizoid.

What I find interesting/fascinating about Aspergers, is that it is a neurological disorder, not a personality condition. And, I had always sensed something was different with the way I processed information. But it was more a feeling than anything else.

So – for me – a key question is, what are those neurological differences associated with Aspergers? Minshew and Goldstein wrote an interesting paper. In it, they assert that Aspergers (and Autism) is a disorder of Complex Information Processing.

In a presentation, Minshew indicates that: “Autism is the result of alterations in how the brain processes information, which alters how the mind sees the world.”

Minshew indentifies the following intact or enhanced functions in individuals with High Functioning Autism:
• Attention
• Sensory Perception
• Elementary Motor
• Simple Memory
• Formal Language
• Rule-learning
• Visuospatial processing

Minshew then identifies the following cognitive weaknesses in individuals with High Functioning Autism:
• Complex Sensory
• Complex Motor
• Complex Memory
• Complex Language
• Concept-formation
• Face Recognition

From my perspective, while it’s interesting to research and understand the behavioral patterns, it’s more important to understand whether you possess those cognitive weaknesses. As, again, the underlying behavioral patterns are clumped across many “conditions”.

How do you tell if you have these cognitive weaknesses? Perhaps the best way, it to undergo neurological testing. I understand that this is easier said than done (as testing can be expensive and may not be covered by insurance).

One final note. I am a believer in understanding what is driving those behavioral patterns. As, the treatment may differ, depending upon the diagnosis (i.e. Aspergers versus Schizoid).

Interestingly, it wasn’t until I got my diagnosis that I really understand the neurological aspects driving my behavior (and, honestly, I am simply beginning to learn about this stuff and could easily spend years learning even more). I find it quite interesting/fascinating.



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05 May 2013, 1:51 pm

Rocket123 wrote:
Interestingly, it wasn’t until I got my diagnosis that I really understand the neurological aspects driving my behavior (and, honestly, I am simply beginning to learn about this stuff and could easily spend years learning even more). I find it quite interesting/fascinating.


Rocket123, I must thank you, I had'nt known that there was an article out there that supported these views.


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05 May 2013, 2:32 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:
Rocket123, I must thank you, I had'nt known that there was an article out there that supported these views.


AgentPalpatine – I will tell you, learning about this stuff has been eye-opening. And, it explains a lot. And, I am eager to learn more.

What’s becoming oh so obvious is how debilitating these cognitive weaknesses have been (at least for me). Had I known better, I would have chosen a different path 25+ years ago. Instead, I chose a path requiring strengths (not weaknesses) in those complex cognitive areas. As such, I am now at a crossroads. And being here (for me) is depressing. I hope to figure things out soon, as it is driving me crazy.



ker08
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05 May 2013, 8:46 pm

I'll be honest, I have no idea if I'm simply an introvert or if I have Aspergers. I spent almost 26 years presuming I was an introvert (although I admit I wasn't really the first abt 11 years of my life). I am female though, and I think this has helped.

For as long as I can remember I have tried to mimic others so I can "fit in". I wonder is this because I'm covering for autism deficits or is it because of low self esteem?

I think in extreme black and white. It freaked me out to talk to/play with people in other grades at school, besides my siblings and a few neighborhood people. I can't say why, I just felt like that was the way it was supposed to be. A "rule". The only way I function in life is through many, many rules that I have had to imprint on my brain. When things violate these rules, I don't know how to react.

I have severe issues with changes to my routine. If a friend wants to spontaneously go out to dinner or do something on the weekend, I have a panic attack and either say no, or try to fit them into my schedule. AKA, movie on Friday/Saturday and dinner on one of those days. If it's something else, I need minimum notice of 2 weeks so I can prepare myself.

I have an obsessive preoccupation with genealogy. I research 3+ hours a day. Generally at work during down time (which there is a lot of) and at home after, and Saturday pre-5pm is dedicated to it. I started when I was abt 13, and am now almost 27 so...a very long time for this!

However, I get sarcasm. I have a hard time telling when someone is lying/telling the truth though. Extreme difficulty. Sarcasm is different though. People generally change their inflection & I do notice that. My father however is the king of sarcasm, so I feel like if this wasn't an innate ability, I had to learn it to survive my childhood, lol.

The main question is, how does one know if they can read faces?



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05 May 2013, 9:44 pm

In the past I have met introverted NTs who could fake being extroverted & I envied that about them since I am unable to do this to the extent that they did it. I am introverted, shy and have NVLD.


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06 May 2013, 12:01 am

Introvert NT brains are still NT brains and are wired correctly, or appropriately.

Aspies have badly wired brains. Major defects.



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06 May 2013, 12:36 pm

thanks for the replies! is interesting hearing from other introverts wondering if they are just introverts or also aspergers. i found thread with those online tests and took a bunch and all put me well in asperger land (like 5% chance no, 85+% chance yes). i even did really bad on the test recognizing emotions from faces which i never thought or realized i had a problem with WTH haha.

is interesting to find the sensory problem with hearing and understanding in noisy environment. i've always been confused how other people could talk at party or bar and i just can't tell what is going on for the life of me. i never met anyone with same problem, is a bit of a relief finding it's a thing and not just me failing somehow.



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07 May 2013, 4:55 am

I have been wondering if I am just an introvert or have Asperger's. I am sure I am an introvert because I prefer my own company and draw energy from within rather from others. I am very socially awkward and have great difficulties in socializing--I know I lack social skills, but I don't know if it is simply due to lack of practice or lack of innate ability to understand social cues. I get easily overwhelmed at parties and social situations where there is a lot going on at once. I think I am slow at processing information, especially auditory. I do wish I could have a few close friends but I simply don't know how to make friends. But besides social difficulties, I also have obsessive interests and can hyperfocus on certain topics that fascinate me.



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07 May 2013, 9:35 am

I am Asperger like (not officially an Aspie but many things in common with them) and I am certainly not introverted in all situations. I can be quite extraverted and pretty social for someone with autism.



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08 May 2013, 12:26 am

Count me in with the not-sure-if-I-have-AS-or-am-merely-an-introvert group. A lot of my behavior is in line with AS--stimming, lack of eye contact, somewhat flattened affect in terms of facial expressions, to name a few things. But I generally do OK when it comes to recognizing facial expressions and such in others.



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08 May 2013, 2:50 pm

Yunilimo wrote:
at this stage, I find it so very hard to know who "I" am, where my compensating stops or starts and where the real me is hidden.

I can see why some consider introversion as a mild form of autism; as my friend (a psychiatric nurse) said: "ten years ago, you would have just been labeled introverted". What makes it different for me, it that it is disabling: I suffer from sensory overload a great deal, I find it hard to comply with the great variety of demands at work and to manage the "human capital" there, I am an outright verbal thinker with an uneven IQ profile, I fail at most relationships. And I'm obsessive over special interests - currently finding out whether I am really on the spectrum or not - to the extent where I forget everything else.


I think the "disabling" features are key. I occasionally convince myself that I am really just an introvert, that I really can have a normal job and normal friendships etc. ...but then I try to do those things, and I end up with repeated meltdowns, in part because of sensory overload, in part because it is so stressful to have to analyze every interaction and "act" the part that seems to be required. I can occasionally make eye contact, or use facial expressions (which may or may not be appropriate, depending on my grasp of the social situation), and I can inject enough "normal" behaviour and vocal inflection that most people think I must just be a weird NT. But it takes a lot of conscious study and energy on my part, and it is so draining that when I finally fall apart, it's in a big way, and I have little control over when or how that happens, which makes people wonder what kind of psychosis has suddenly overtaken me. The introverts I know simply wait for an opportunity to excuse themselves, and after being alone for a period of time they are able to cope again. But when I am overdone by social exertions, even being alone for a time doesn't renew my store of energy completely. And it takes a lot less than you would think to push me over the proverbial edge.

I am definitely more successful at interactions which have to do with my special interests, in part I think because I have a lot of confidence in my intellectual abilities, which serves as a crutch which allows me to limp past some of my usual social anxieties... especially if the other person is genuinely interested in the subject and willing to overlook occasional breaches of social protocol in favour of an interesting conversation...



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27 May 2013, 5:23 am

ker08 wrote:

The main question is, how does one know if they can read faces?


It's been a long time, so maybe you found the answer, but anyway...

If you talk to a man and don't understand that he's flirting with you until he starts undressing you, it probably means that you can't read faces.
If you suddenly learn from third parties that a person whom you thought to be your friend for 10 years actually never liked you, it most probably means you can't read faces. You just can't tell faked smile from sincere one.
If you never know if your child is lying to you and have to use methods from spy films to find out the truth, it might also be for the same reason.

In all these cases, you cannot understand the implied (or intentionally hidden) things.
My experience may be not reliable as I don't know if I have AS, but some of these examples are in the literature, too.