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RT-'Life for most Libyans worse than it was under Gadaffi'

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Jono
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14 May 2013, 12:52 pm

thomas81 wrote:
The NTC is hated by large swathes of people across Libya. Many are demanding Gadaffi's surviving son, Saif Al-Islam Gadaffi to be released in the hope that he can lead a second green revolution and reinstate the Jamahiriya.


Yeah, I hope that doesn't happen.



thomas81
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14 May 2013, 3:42 pm

Jono wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
The NTC is hated by large swathes of people across Libya. Many are demanding Gadaffi's surviving son, Saif Al-Islam Gadaffi to be released in the hope that he can lead a second green revolution and reinstate the Jamahiriya.


Yeah, I hope that doesn't happen.


I do. I want the Libyan people to have universal housing, education, utilities and healthcare reinstated. It saddens me to know that yet another former socialist direct democracy is being raped by western companies and left as dying a dustbowl and a shell of its former self.

Allah Akhbar! Death to the rats.


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MCalavera
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14 May 2013, 4:52 pm

An extremely biased remark if you ask me.

Do you also think Bashar Al-Assad is a victim of false accusations and who's never caused harm to the Syrian people?



thomas81
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14 May 2013, 5:00 pm

MCalavera wrote:
An extremely biased remark if you ask me.

Do you also think Bashar Al-Assad is a victim of false accusations and who's never caused harm to the Syrian people?


I'm honestly not well informed enough about the situation in Syria to make an informed comment. Although 2 factors i think are extremely telling- The rebels are struggling to gain ground probably because they do not have decisive support among the people. Secondly NATO is not lending its full weight behind the overthrow of Al-Assad in the way that it did against Gadaffi. I think thats a indictment of their true reasons for going into Libya. ie its an oil producing country whereas Syria is not, or at least not to the same extent.


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Lintar
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19 May 2013, 1:44 am

Jono wrote:
Gadaffi wasn't overthrown as a result of western intervention. He was overthrown by Libyan rebels during the Arab Spring.


This is just a joke that I'm not understanding, isn't it? I honestly hope so.



Lintar
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19 May 2013, 1:46 am

Jono wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
The NTC is hated by large swathes of people across Libya. Many are demanding Gadaffi's surviving son, Saif Al-Islam Gadaffi to be released in the hope that he can lead a second green revolution and reinstate the Jamahiriya.


Yeah, I hope that doesn't happen.


I hope it does.



ruveyn
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19 May 2013, 7:54 am

thomas81 wrote:

I do. I want the Libyan people to have universal housing, education, utilities and healthcare reinstated. It saddens me to know that yet another former socialist direct democracy is being raped by western companies and left as dying a dustbowl and a shell of its former self.

.


Free this. Free that. And who shall pay for all this Free? There is no such thing as a Free Lunch --- Robert A. Heinlein.

Have you ever wondered why socialism barely works? Even in successful so called socialist nations there is an operational free market and private ownership of property. Really fully collectivist bee-hive socialism exists nowhere and where ever it has been tried it has failed. Even after the Russian Revolution, Lenin had to introduced the New Economic Policy which brought back or protected some forms of private ownership and Soviet Russia was fed and kept alive by the private land plots reluctantly granted to the collectivist farm workers.

ruveyn



thomas81
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19 May 2013, 9:30 am

ruveyn wrote:

Have you ever wondered why socialism barely works? Even in successful so called socialist nations there is an operational free market and private ownership of property. Really fully collectivist bee-hive socialism exists nowhere and where ever it has been tried it has failed. Even after the Russian Revolution, Lenin had to introduced the New Economic Policy which brought back or protected some forms of private ownership and Soviet Russia was fed and kept alive by the private land plots reluctantly granted to the collectivist farm workers.

ruveyn


Gadaffi Socialism had been going just dandy for 40 odd years until the NTC/NATO rats showed up. Did you ever wonder why they wanted rid of it badly despite A) It was of no imminent threat to NATO and B) Gadaffi had pledged support for the so-called 'war on terror'? Because as an example of working Socialism, it was an embarressment to the global neo-liberal agenda.

Now Libya has gone from a direct democracy that took care of its vulnerable to a cestpit dustbowl run into the ground by NTC thugs, western profiteers and inter tribal rivalry where Al Quaeda now have a power stake.

Gadaffi should have stuck to his guns and realised what it means to extend the olive branch to the British and Americans; you end up with a knife in your back. He should have pushed for nuclear proliferation and crushed the NTC while he still could.

I think what it also means is that other anti western countries like Iran and North Korea are going to consolidate their hardline positions because they see what it means when you demilitarise and soften your politics. Where before they may have waivered towards moderation and dialogue they are not going to be tricked any more. Its probably partly why Kim Jung Un and Ahmoudinejhad has been sabre rattling more recently.


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GGPViper
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19 May 2013, 10:10 am

thomas81 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

Have you ever wondered why socialism barely works? Even in successful so called socialist nations there is an operational free market and private ownership of property. Really fully collectivist bee-hive socialism exists nowhere and where ever it has been tried it has failed. Even after the Russian Revolution, Lenin had to introduced the New Economic Policy which brought back or protected some forms of private ownership and Soviet Russia was fed and kept alive by the private land plots reluctantly granted to the collectivist farm workers.

ruveyn

Gadaffi Socialism had been going just dandy for 40 odd years until the NTC/NATO rats showed up. Did you ever wonder why they wanted rid of it badly despite A) It was of no imminent threat to NATO and B) Gadaffi had pledged support for the so-called 'war on terror'? Because as an example of working Socialism, it was an embarrassment to the global neo-liberal agenda.

Libya under Gaddafi ran on oil, not on Socialism. It's dependence on oil is comparable to that of Saudi Arabia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Libya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia

There was never any "working" socialism in Libya, as the state of its economy was not based on the productivity of its populace, but on oil reserves discovered in 1959 and formed millions of years ago. Take those away, and the house of cards will come crashing down...

A bit of illustration.. Libyan exports in 2010, prior to the fall of Gaddafi:

Image

Source:
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree ... show/2010/



xenon13
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19 May 2013, 10:34 am

ruveyn wrote:
thomas81 wrote:

I do. I want the Libyan people to have universal housing, education, utilities and healthcare reinstated. It saddens me to know that yet another former socialist direct democracy is being raped by western companies and left as dying a dustbowl and a shell of its former self.

.


Free this. Free that. And who shall pay for all this Free? There is no such thing as a Free Lunch --- Robert A. Heinlein.

Have you ever wondered why socialism barely works? Even in successful so called socialist nations there is an operational free market and private ownership of property. Really fully collectivist bee-hive socialism exists nowhere and where ever it has been tried it has failed. Even after the Russian Revolution, Lenin had to introduced the New Economic Policy which brought back or protected some forms of private ownership and Soviet Russia was fed and kept alive by the private land plots reluctantly granted to the collectivist farm workers.

ruveyn



Oil revenues as happened before. Not sticking it in these slave labour projects and super marijuana scanners in Dubayy.



thomas81
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19 May 2013, 4:39 pm

GGPViper wrote:

There was never any "working" socialism in Libya, as the state of its economy was not based on the productivity of its populace, but on oil reserves discovered in 1959 and formed millions of years ago. Take those away, and the house of cards will come crashing down...

A bit of illustration.. Libyan exports in 2010, prior to the fall of Gaddafi:

/


Saudi Arabia is a market economy yet it is as you say, no less dependent on oil. Libya was/is a sustainable autonomous land unit that was funded by oil, i don't see how that is relevant. What is important is that prior to the fall of Gaddafi there were no Islamic terrorists in political power and the national treasury was being delivered in a utilitarian way which ensured that no one went without shelter, water, electricity, medicine or education.

Capitalist Libya will be no less dependent on oil yet the people are suffering because they are being denied access to the amenities provided by Gadaffi.


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GGPViper
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19 May 2013, 5:01 pm

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
There was never any "working" socialism in Libya, as the state of its economy was not based on the productivity of its populace, but on oil reserves discovered in 1959 and formed millions of years ago. Take those away, and the house of cards will come crashing down...

A bit of illustration.. Libyan exports in 2010, prior to the fall of Gaddafi:

/

Saudi Arabia is a market economy yet it is as you say, no less dependent on oil. Libya was/is a sustainable autonomous land unit that was funded by oil, i don't see how that is relevant.

No, it was/is not "sustainable" in any way. It is a fantasy state based on oil reserves.

And it is relevant because you are running out of "working" socialist countries.



thomas81
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19 May 2013, 7:22 pm

GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
There was never any "working" socialism in Libya, as the state of its economy was not based on the productivity of its populace, but on oil reserves discovered in 1959 and formed millions of years ago. Take those away, and the house of cards will come crashing down...

A bit of illustration.. Libyan exports in 2010, prior to the fall of Gaddafi:

/

Saudi Arabia is a market economy yet it is as you say, no less dependent on oil. Libya was/is a sustainable autonomous land unit that was funded by oil, i don't see how that is relevant.

No, it was/is not "sustainable" in any way. It is a fantasy state based on oil reserves.

And it is relevant because you are running out of "working" socialist countries.


Now it will be bled all the faster, now that the likes of E$$O and BP are gouging at the trough.


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ruveyn
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20 May 2013, 6:48 am

xenon13 wrote:


Oil revenues as happened before. Not sticking it in these slave labour projects and super marijuana scanners in Dubayy.


Could you translate that into English? Thank you.

ruveyn



lotuspuppy
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20 May 2013, 8:52 am

This is the pattern of all revolutions. But I have faith things will get better for Libyans. Their civil society, while severely damaged by Qadafi, has proved remarkably resilient. I think it helps they can earn hard currency quickly with oil exports, although they need a strong oil law to ensure they can divide revenues in a way everyone understands. Most assuring, Libya as a nation state will survive, or at least the area near the coast where most everyone lives.

There are other nations that worry me. Like Syria.



ruveyn
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20 May 2013, 9:28 am

lotuspuppy wrote:
This is the pattern of all revolutions. But I have faith things will get better for Libyans. Their civil society, while severely damaged by Qadafi, has proved remarkably resilient. I think it helps they can earn hard currency quickly with oil exports, although they need a strong oil law to ensure they can divide revenues in a way everyone understands. Most assuring, Libya as a nation state will survive, or at least the area near the coast where most everyone lives.

There are other nations that worry me. Like Syria.


The American Revolution survived its blood-bath both short term and long term. The Republic did not collapse with the election of 1803 and it survived (barely) the Civil War. Not all revolutions fail. Just most.

ruveyn