Erilyn
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t think that it’s so much a lack of instinct, because social skills aren’t an inherent instinct in any species. They are a learned skill.
Baby animals learn social skills through playing with their siblings, parents, and/or any other animals in the pack. Any puppy or kitten taken away from its mother and siblings too soon, and not exposed to other animals, will grow up to have very poor social skills. These are the dogs that try to play with other dogs despite repeated warning growls, or the cats that never learned to keep their claws retracted during play. They learn all this stuff through regular interaction with other animals, not because it is instinctual.
The proverbial “child raised by a pack of wolves” would probably display some very autistic-like behaviours, having never had the chance to interact with other humans and learn the set of social skills necessary for normal human communication and interaction.
Our problem is that we DID grow up exposed to normal human interaction, we just didn’t learn it, or were unable to learn it. But just like someone with dyslexia can develop coping strategies and learn to read in his own, unique way, we can learn to develop our own coping strategies to overcome this. We just won’t do it in the same way an NT does.
Just my opinion, of course. |
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KimJ
Legend in my own mind
Joined: Jun 11, 2006
Posts: 2540
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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That's why I said prey animal "in our perspective". ie looking for danger, learning discretely, attention to details in environment, inability to filter out those details in everyday life, not being opportunistic, etc. The herd behavior, well, that's another topic and I'm not sure it applies to my point, being that we don't know of any Aspie Herd or society. 
I don't like going into the "what we don't have" because we are basing that on our NT peers' perceptions. Like "autistics lack theory of mind", those are arguable hypotheses. They assert some sort of mind-reading ability that NTs lord over autistics. I think it's more accurate to say that we don't express reciprocal altruism in the same way NTs do.
Dr. Temple Grandin talked about how she feels about other people and she centers her "loyalty" on their shared interests and needs. She empathizes and cares for people in her circle, she understands that she needs to be nice and helpful, she just doesn't express it in some abstract, lofty manner. I hope I'm translating that right. I saw her answer that question about love and empathy last year in a speech she gave. |
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sepia
Deinonychus
Joined: Jul 29, 2004
Age: 36
Posts: 361
Location: N.London
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Erilyn wrote: | I don’t think that it’s so much a lack of instinct, because social skills aren’t an inherent instinct in any species. They are a learned skill.
Baby animals learn social skills through playing with their siblings, parents, and/or any other animals in the pack. Any puppy or kitten taken away from its mother and siblings too soon, and not exposed to other animals, will grow up to have very poor social skills. These are the dogs that try to play with other dogs despite repeated warning growls, or the cats that never learned to keep their claws retracted during play. They learn all this stuff through regular interaction with other animals, not because it is instinctual.
The proverbial “child raised by a pack of wolves” would probably display some very autistic-like behaviours, having never had the chance to interact with other humans and learn the set of social skills necessary for normal human communication and interaction.
Our problem is that we DID grow up exposed to normal human interaction, we just didn’t learn it, or were unable to learn it. But just like someone with dyslexia can develop coping strategies and learn to read in his own, unique way, we can learn to develop our own coping strategies to overcome this. We just won’t do it in the same way an NT does.
Just my opinion, of course. |
It is more than an opinion, all of the above is fairly well documented. My brian collects info, but often in a 'funky cocktail' way that I cannot remember exactly where I have read things... I am sure much of this stuff is googlable.
The question is where were you when you were at the age window for learning these social nick-nacks? I suspect that for me I have been unable to perform the subtle social interactions because of problems with sensory intergration. I still have this, but less so when I avoid certain foods which I suspect that I am intollerant to.
It might not be the same for all AS. If scientists say that they have found 100 hundred genes playing a part in AS, then I would suggest that AS is in fact an umbrella term covering maybe several destinct peculiarities of body and brain messengers, (you know hormones, enzymes and whatnot).
Back to the another issue brought up in this thread: When you say you lack the 'social instinct' are you talking about 'social desire' or 'social ability'?
I have to ask because I have no defecit of the former! |
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Erilyn
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| KimJ wrote: | | I don't like going into the "what we don't have" because we are basing that on our NT peers' perceptions. Like "autistics lack theory of mind", those are arguable hypotheses. They assert some sort of mind-reading ability that NTs lord over autistics. I think it's more accurate to say that we don't express reciprocal altruism in the same way NTs do. |
I agree. I simply believe we are wired differently, and as a result, just percieve things differently. Saying that we lack empathy and lack theory of mind is a pile of crap. We just perceive these things differently than NT's do.
You could have a point with the reciprocal altruism thing. With "theory of mind", I think NT's look at other living, breathing, thinking beings and think, "here's someone I could possibly develop a mutually beneficial relationship with", whereas an autie probably looks at them and thinks, "oh, another living, breathing, thinking being. Huh.", and continues with whatever they were doing. |
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SeriousGirl
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: the Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Reciprocal altruism is a fairly new theory. The guy who penned it, Robert Trivers, is something of an aspie himself. Steven Pinker at Harvard is on the same track and wrote a book called "The Blank Slate," basically stating that we are not blank slates and we're genetically programmed to learn things, such as reciprocal social interactions - and do it intuitively. I ran across these studies as an anthropology student and found them fascinating. Of course, they infringe on many other pet theories and we'll have to wait for the results of the turf wars in academia. And, of course, anything genetic that has to with behavior is just bad according to society. Everyone fears eugenics and for good reason. But how can one argue with identical tiwn studies?
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SeriousGirl
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: the Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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As far as social skills being learned - yes and no. We are born with the instinct to learn them just like the instinct to learn language. There is something making us pay attention. Friendship is never directly taught. Why do we have a desire for it? Why do we feel lonely when all of our other needs are met?
The question to me is why aren't baby aspies paying attention to learning social skills. Baby aspies are paying attention to objects and not other kids. It's not just our sensory systems causing distortions. There is a group tagged "highly sensitive" that have some similar sensory problems and they learn them.
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SteveK
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| KimJ wrote: | | They assert some sort of mind-reading ability that NTs lord over autistics. I think it's more accurate to say that we don't express reciprocal altruism in the same way NTs do. |
Well, NTs can't read MY mind, and I can't generally read theirs! Of course, I haven't really tried for like 30+ years! Most don't even believe such a thing is possible! As for altruism? WHAT kind? I RARELY see evidence of that!
Steve |
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SeriousGirl
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: the Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I think "reading mind" refers to "state of mind." Being kind of literal there, Steve. 
Altruism in this context refers to doing favors with the expectation of favors in the future as a survival mechanism. NTs keep a running talley of whon they've done favors for, who they can count for favors, who are cheaters, non-players, etc. It is the entire point of friendship if looked at in an evolutionary sense.
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Erilyn
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| SeriousGirl wrote: | | The question to me is why aren't baby aspies paying attention to learning social skills. Baby aspies are paying attention to objects and not other kids. It's not just our sensory systems causing distortions. There is a group tagged "highly sensitive" that have some similar sensory problems and they learn them. |
I support the theory that many of the ASD’s are simply information processing disorders. Most of us have sensory issues, auditory problems, some degree of face-blindness, etc. These are all problems with information processing. Our brains can become easily overwhelmed, and/or try to compensate by taking in some pieces of information while excluding others; or in the case of hyposensitivity, miss some stimuli altogether.
To interact with another human being is an incredibly intense sensory experience that requires an astronomical amount of information processing. It’s pretty amazing, when you really think about it. Your brain looks at the person in order to read and interpret body language and facial expression, make eye contact (a powerful sensory experience in itself) as well as take note of their physical appearance for future reference and/or past comparison. It has to listen to what the person is saying by translating the sounds they’re making into comprehensible language (no small feat), read and interpret changes in tone and pitch, and at the same time filter out non-important extraneous sounds and other stimuli. It has to receive and process the meaning behind a touch. Perhaps the person is wearing perfume or cologne. Perhaps you are meeting over dinner or drinks. As if all this wasn’t enough, your brain is simultaneously working out a plan to reciprocate with properly pitched words, appropriate body language, and relevant facial expressions of its own. Then it executes the proper motor functions to do so. During all this, the brain is continuously accessing memories and associations relevant to the subject matter or situation, not to mention creating and storing memories of this very moment itself.
Simple social interaction probably requires the highest amount of information processing the human brain ever performs in any given situation, which is why I think problems with social interaction is the one symptom that is almost universal across the ASD spectrum. And it could also be a reasonable explanation as to why our symptoms are so varied, since not everyone experiences sensitivities (or lack thereof) in the exact same areas.
I think the problem is not that we don’t WANT interaction, we either don’t know how to initiate it, how to deal with it, or how to recognize it in the first place because are brains aren’t telling us what to look for.
Last edited by Erilyn on Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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SteveK
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Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| SeriousGirl wrote: | As far as social skills being learned - yes and no. We are born with the instinct to learn them just like the instinct to learn language. There is something making us pay attention. Friendship is never directly taught. Why do we have a desire for it? Why do we feel lonely when all of our other needs are met?
The question to me is why aren't baby aspies paying attention to learning social skills. Baby aspies are paying attention to objects and not other kids. It's not just our sensory systems causing distortions. There is a group tagged "highly sensitive" that have some similar sensory problems and they learn them. |
I don't know about the idea of an inborn instinct. STILL, it is obvious that Aspies tend to pay MORE attention to words, and less to faces. I know that the inattention to faces has caused me a lot of grief as an adult. Maybe it did as a baby also.
Steve |
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Erilyn
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| SeriousGirl wrote: | | There is a group tagged "highly sensitive" that have some similar sensory problems and they learn them. |
Sorry, I meant to address this part too.
Every single thought, action, or perception that takes place in the brain is a stimulus. Sight, sound, smell, touch, and taste are all external stimuli. The “highly sensitive” group are people who only have problems with perception of external stimuli. I think our difficulties extend to the processing of all information, not just external. Memory, cognition, executive functioning, motor coordination, language and communication, etc., are all governed by internal communication within the brain. Everything the brain does is a form of information processing, whether it’s processing a sound, or deciphering a meaning from that sound.
Social interaction involves just as much processing of internal stimuli as it does external stimuli. To a “highly sensitive” person, a laugh may sound unusually loud, but they still understand why the person laughed. |
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SteveK
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SeriousGirl wrote: | I think "reading mind" refers to "state of mind." Being kind of literal there, Steve.
Altruism in this context refers to doing favors with the expectation of favors in the future as a survival mechanism. NTs keep a running talley of whon they've done favors for, who they can count for favors, who are cheaters, non-players, etc. It is the entire point of friendship if looked at in an evolutionary sense. |
Well, even determining the STATE of mind amounts to the same thing.
As for altruism, I view it as the OPPOSITE! That is doing favors WITHOUT expectation of return.
As for the friends part, yeah. I would love friends that would do anything for me to theri detriment. One even offered to fly here at a moments notice when I had a heart problem. I don't expect that, and dissuade it, but it IS the sign of a true friend.
Still, there is no point to altruism if it doesn't help out society, etc... The idea of communism was supposed to be a kind of altruism. equal pay for equal work, and trying to help the country together. Yet it became an oligarchy and changed only the meaning of the word communism!
Steve |
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KimJ
Legend in my own mind
Joined: Jun 11, 2006
Posts: 2540
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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For the second time in World History, I agree with SteveK. And I was refering to a sort of mind reading. That is, Steve doesn't smile and ask Mary about her day. Mary tells everyone that Steve is unfriendly and doesn't care about her. Simplistic example but pretty much the course of how daily interactions get interpreted. The "majority" "knows" Steve would smile and initiate polite chit chat if he cared, he must not then. Except that the "majority" has no idea that Steve can't see Mary really well because of the loud plane overhead and he doesn't know why Mary is trying to look at his eyes. He may be worried that he forgot to brush his teeth too.
Our ideas of "what is nice?" are different too. While NTs may enjoy smiling and being smiled at, autistics may be confused by it. Autistics may think it's more pleasant to keep a straight face to keep from confusing the next person and expect the same done for them.
So, it's not a matter of not wanting to be nice or helpful, we just have different ideas of what nice or helpful means.
I'm also a purist when it comes to altruism. You do nice things for another, not for good karma. I understand how reciprocal altruism works and I believe that working that into a social group is probably how things get done. But it's very rare do I gift someone so that I get something in return. I usually do it because I think they'll feel good. It's a literal way of looking at gift-giving. |
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SteveK
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| KimJ wrote: | For the second time in World History, I agree with SteveK. And I was refering to a sort of mind reading. That is, Steve doesn't smile and ask Mary about her day. Mary tells everyone that Steve is unfriendly and doesn't care about her. Simplistic example but pretty much the course of how daily interactions get interpreted. The "majority" "knows" Steve would smile and initiate polite chit chat if he cared, he must not then. Except that the "majority" has no idea that Steve can't see Mary really well because of the loud plane overhead and he doesn't know why Mary is trying to look at his eyes. He may be worried that he forgot to brush his teeth too.
Our ideas of "what is nice?" are different too. While NTs may enjoy smiling and being smiled at, autistics may be confused by it. Autistics may think it's more pleasant to keep a straight face to keep from confusing the next person and expect the same done for them.
So, it's not a matter of not wanting to be nice or helpful, we just have different ideas of what nice or helpful means.
I'm also a purist when it comes to altruism. You do nice things for another, not for good karma. I understand how reciprocal altruism works and I believe that working that into a social group is probably how things get done. But it's very rare do I gift someone so that I get something in return. I usually do it because I think they'll feel good. It's a literal way of looking at gift-giving. |
GEE, you disagree THAT much with that much I say?  Yeah, I don't consider that "mind reading". I consider that a stupid ASSUMPTION.
Steve |
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Star
Deinonychus
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Age: 51
Posts: 337
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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I am truly amazed by this discussion! The thoughts and explanations many of you posted here have been 'swimming' in my mind the last few days and finding this forum here, is as if you all telepathically connected to my thoughts.
Star
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Autism is a reality that seems to the neurotypicals like a bad dream, while it is their reality that is the true nightmare...
Last edited by Star on Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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