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Misslizard
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13 Oct 2013, 11:13 am

If you believe in the tooth fairy and Easter bunny you get candy and money.


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octobertiger
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13 Oct 2013, 1:18 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
octobertiger wrote:

I argue that life is experienced through the 'subconscious', which pretty much illogical, and naturally difficult to 'prove' things. As some say, 90-95% of life is experienced through this zone; the logical part of the mind pretends that it's in control and it knows the whole show.


Surely you believe you are a collection of amino acids, DNA, and merely that, otherwise why would you place any value in being here at all? I'm just interested in how you see yourself.


This is why empirical data is so important, we all experience things differently. Just ask a crash investigator how reliable eyewitness accounts are.

I presume you have seen this but in case you have not.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kDQY_oHN1s[/youtube]


Regarding proof does not equal knowledge, I am not sure what you are getting at. If you mean that proof is not required for knowledge I think I can accept that but I will not accept knowledge based on such a premise as particularly reliable. And will (i think) without exception accept knowledge based upon evidence over accepted knowledge that is purely subjective in its premise.

How do I see myself, not sure, never really thought about it in that sense. I suppose I am a life form on a planet which has many other forms of life with a varying degree of similarity. I see a naturalistic cause for my existence and I believe that ALL the processes which work within our form will one day be understood. I see no need to ascribe any part of my Being to a non naturalistic force. What will be regarded as naturalistic will undoubtedly change over time. You only need to look at how the laws of physics seem to change in the absence of heat, not to mention the seemingly bizarre nature of quantum physics. These revelations only add to our understanding of the natural world and as I said in time we will have a COMPLETE understanding of it.

This is why I have the quote from Douglas Adams. I much prefer it when people say I do not know and then go looking for the answer, rather than ascribe a made up cause that seems to fit their belief.


What you say about quantum physics and the crash investigators backs up my point.

Empirical evidence - it has become like an infallible religion to many. It is very fallible. It is bound by our senses, and our technology based on the senses. Just because it might be 'the best that we have got' doesn't mean that it is brilliant.

Just because the 'proof' behind something is reliable or not (and that is all relative), doesn't mean that it is true or not. I'm interested in ultimately what is true beyond this dream, not necessarily what I can prove.

Science will never have the 'answers' as it is bound by its own constraining models. It might discover some of the 'information' - but it will bend it to suit its own whims and models. Unless science changes what it is, it will always misinterpret. And it must be seen to be getting somewhere - if it does not, it will lose credibility.

Perhaps some people have gone looking for the answer, rather than 'ascribe a made up cause that seems to fit their belief'. Perhaps they have found part of it, perhaps not, but to lump everyone who doesn't see science as the rationale behind everything that is ultimately real.

I'm interested in your concepts of naturalistic and non-naturalistic. As far as I can see them, there is no division. Whatever happened is natural. If science doesn't understand it, that doesn't make it naturalistic or non-naturalistic, and it doesn't have the right to determine what label should be applied.

I like Douglas Adams and adore his writing. He was very good at exposing ridiculous customs and rituals for what they were.



MCalavera
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13 Oct 2013, 5:41 pm

Quantum physics is now considered real because we can sense and infer it is real through scientific means. In fact, it was considered through scientific means.

Any new that we may discover later on is very likely to be discovered by science as well, but until that happens, you cannot simply assert something for which there is no evidence to back it up.



aghogday
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14 Oct 2013, 12:08 am

MCalavera wrote:
Quantum physics is now considered real because we can sense and infer it is real through scientific means. In fact, it was considered through scientific means.

Any new that we may discover later on is very likely to be discovered by science as well, but until that happens, you cannot simply assert something for which there is no evidence to back it up.


Of course you can...that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard..ever heard of free speech?'

There are no rules like that..in the US.. are you from the US?

If you live in a Muslim country that is not so ridiculous though....

Or the other countries that do not have freedom of speech or much higher levels of restriction on all freedoms of expression...

The only way to understand some things is to experience them...

You see I have experienced God..so I can assert what I experience..and perhaps if you haven't experienced GOD you can assert the same too..as you live in the US...

But on the other hand if you haven't experienced GOD you miss out on all the benefit...

So that would not be much of a beneficial untruth if you will..

But that's the thing..experiencing GOD IS simply experiencing BLISS with the real potential of experiencing this bliss almost continuously every second, minute..hour...day..through every year...and so on through NOW as ALWAYS....


That's all Jesus was saying..hey folks I figured out the secret to ALWAYS EXPERIENCING BLISS..THIS IS REALLY KOOL s**t YOU OUGHT TO TRY SOME OF IT....

WELL..some other folks figured out that if they could add in the myth that he was literally resurrected from the dead..that would be a sure hook to keep people coming to church and offering big bucks for the big show...if you will...in church..the big lie the story or WHATEVER....

But anyway Jesus took his secret to the grave...in effect..as the TRUE MESSAGE FOR MOST has been lost in these lies for centuries...

Anyway dude..that's all I'm saying I experience bliss almost all the time..now...

And I got a really good reference point per my history of health problems how the real human hell feels too..almost all the time in the past...

So if you don't want some of that s**t...that's up to you dude...

But guess...what.. I figured this s**t out...

And have already taken more than a few people there in real life..with not much problem...

So yeah dude..I am a MAGICK MAN NOW...

AND BY the way this is not just directed at you in a personal way...

It is a way of relating it to the listening audience much further than you as an individual...

My little hobby is expressing the GOD that really IS...

In as many ways as possible..

As there are many other people who have helped me that I stand on their shoulders..

That I can only payback by paying that LOVE that IS GOD and Personal BLISS FORWARD...

So yeah..get the gibberish yet?

If not that OK as one man's gibberish is another man's savior in effect....

Not the person...the words of inspiration...

Is all ..as inspiration can actually save a person's life...

There is no doubt about that..

AT ALL...as THAT connection can ultimately be ONE...


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aghogday
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14 Oct 2013, 12:16 am

MCalavera wrote:
None of you who say that Jesus and Horus overall story are same myths have read Egyptian mythology.


Dude..did you watch the video..

I was commenting on the video..not what i read of Egyptian Mythology..

If it's not true..it just does not support my opinion...And I did not provide that video...

But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind..which is precisely a scientific mind..that GOD exists...

The proof I personally have is irrefutable...seriously...

But you got your mind made up...

If I could make your car levitate...

You'd figure out a way to pooh..poooh IT..at least I'm thinking you would..

But again I'm speaking mostly to the larger listening audience..

HERE...

You are kind of in the back ground here actually so no offense please..intended..

I'm just using your comments as inspiration..if you will..

To make the points i'm making in a lyrical melodic way..if you can..could... or will....

AS THIS IS THE type of language..

That can last a long time as memory...

AS the sub-concious mind feeds of

emotion inspired language..

Whether IT is analytically

understood or

NOT...


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MCalavera
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14 Oct 2013, 1:30 am

The video is based on a lot of ignorance. That's all.



aghogday
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14 Oct 2013, 4:31 am

MCalavera wrote:
The video is based on a lot of ignorance. That's all.


Well...thank you for clarifying that MCalavera...I'm not sure exactly in what way you mean..but I have briefly come across these analogies before and remember them being somewhat debunked if I remember correctly...

It would be quite a coincidence though if they were true..

And certainly worth exploring in the historical text to see what could or could not be evidenced as far as this goes..

But again..my proof of God is in endless bliss..that old thing called Nirvana in EAstern philosophy and certainly not easily obtained.. as that old saying that 'GOD' spits out folks that are lukewarm is seriously true as one cannot maintain bliss without an extreme focus on many arts that lead up to that bliss..or what one might call as ONENESS with the ONE..or GOD or whatever...

Including TAI CHI like movements..dance..singing..music in general...meditation..yoga...and everything the masters of the past and present have established and practiced to obtain...GODHEAD..if you will...

This is no Illusion at all..IT's just that the cultural illusions prevent most human beings from freeing themselves from personal judgement against others..all hate..unwarranted fear...free expression of emotions..and freedom to practice a path to enlightenment and bliss in the eternal NOW....

Part of my journey is simple but at the same time very complex with courageous acts of defying fear..and negative emotions..as well as oneness with the physical body..including walking very fast in reverse in super-walmart..whirling and twirling like a 6FT 222LB ballerina..where no store attendant would dare to approach as this defies their pre-conceived notions of reality...

In other words they are left speechless..as I do not look like I would ever do such a thing..

The little children laugh and follow my lead..enjoying themselves at Super-Walmart a little more than usual to the dismay of some of their parents...

So yeah..that thing that the historical Jesus said about coming into the kingdom of 'heaven' NOW..by entering it like a little child and being reborn..is absolutely true for the path I take to achieve this eternal bliss in NOW...

And no.. bliss is not mania..It is a peaceful feeling of strength and power beyond all imagination..if one has not experienced IT..

Now here is the thing.. most 'religious' leaning people observe GOD outside of themselves..this could be nothing further from the TRUTH..

GOD is the higher power within each human being that can in effect make any human being..superman..

That's ALL Jesus and the other so called prophets were..is Supermen..nothing that unusual..but certainly an admirable state of being to obtain..this thing described as ONENESS,..GOD..CHRIST..ALLAH..or WHATEVER WILL...

THERE IS NO DOUBT THIS GOD EXISTS...

NOW THAT MAGICK GUY IN THE SKY OUTSIDE OF ANYONE..SIMPLY BS...

TO BE CLEAR THIS IS ALL MY OPINON AND i DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO APPROVE OF IT..AGREE..OR EVEN WANT TO READ IT...


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DentArthurDent
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14 Oct 2013, 4:51 pm

aghogday wrote:

So you have a very interesting religion my friend.. And a GOD called Science...



Pure and utter crap.

Human knowledge and ideas tested against nature to check their accuracy and discarded if no validating evidence is found is not a bloody religion, its rational, logical and has given us the modern world of medicine (oh yes, sorry I forgot, you claim to have been cured by god. I did try to find your medical records in the "million words" they must be in code because i could not find them), education, electricity, agriculture, transportation, clean drinking water, the internet you all love to use, the list of human advances since the implementation of the scientific method is incredible.

Perhaps all you who fight against verifiable human discoveries should stop using them and see just how long you last. I and many others have removed the idiocy of religion from our lives and guess what, we have no discernible disadvantage.


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14 Oct 2013, 5:24 pm

octobertiger wrote:

What you say about quantum physics and the crash investigators backs up my point.


how so quantum mechanics is a scientific discovery, and the relibality of eyewitness accounts is confirmed by the use of scientific investigation.


octobertiger wrote:
Empirical evidence - it has become like an infallible religion to many. It is very fallible. It is bound by our senses, and our technology based on the senses. Just because it might be 'the best that we have got' doesn't mean that it is brilliant.


Firstly it is not a religion, religion is a belief/faith system with absolutely no evidence to support the belief. The scientific method does not require absolute proof to move an idea forward, what it does need however is some sort of supporting evidence and most important of all if the ideas and hypothesis are tested against nature and found to be incorrect then that is the end of the matter, the idea was incorrect. As I said above this is not religious dogma its rational, logical and has been proven to be effective by giving us the modern era.

octobertiger wrote:
Science will never have the 'answers' as it is bound by its own constraining models. It might discover some of the 'information' - but it will bend it to suit its own whims and models. Unless science changes what it is, it will always misinterpret. And it must be seen to be getting somewhere - if it does not, it will lose credibility.


I posted this somewhere before but what the heck I like it as it sums up the scientific method, and shows that in general the scientific community are not guilty of what you are inferring above.

"scientist or not, each of us has intuition and we all infer things about the world from our everyday experiences, If we subject our observations to the cold and precise light of the scientific method, however, we often discover that nature confounds our intuition. ........ Difficult as it may sometimes seem, science at its heart is not a complicated discipline. One might venture to say that is is an attempt to remove our innate prejudices in order to observe the world as objectively as possible. It may be more of less successful in that goal but few can doubt its success in teaching us how the universe "works". The really difficult thing is to learn not to trust what we might like to think of as common sense. By teaching us to accept nature for what it is, and not for what our prejudice may suggest it should be , the scientific method has delivered the modern technological world. In short it works" Prof Brian Cox (bold highlight added)


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octobertiger
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14 Oct 2013, 5:41 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:

The really difficult thing is to learn not to trust what we might like to think of as common sense. By teaching us to accept nature for what it is, and not for what our prejudice may suggest it should be , the scientific method has delivered the modern technological world. In short it ...


Completely agree with that.

The rest - I'm sorry, but the more I read it, science has become unquestionable because you dare not question your own senses - or technology, created from our senses.

The modern world should not be held up to be the ultimate example. Who knows what improvements we could have made by understanding psychology, philosophy more, and modifying the rigidity of scientific thinking.

Quantum physics has been around a lot longer before science became credible. Properly understood, quantum physics will illustrate that all is one, and thus everything is a dream...when that day comes, I'm sure science will put a 'better' spin on it.

I think that if Marx was alive today, he would conclude that science was the new opiate of the masses. Well, either that or tv.



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14 Oct 2013, 7:27 pm

We have come a long way in understanding human psychology, trouble is people like you seem not to like the reality. I find it interesting that you do not seem to recognise the advent of the scientific method as the founder of the modern age. In fact had the world not been so tied up in superstition and subjective nonsense, the scientific discoveries coming from the"middle east" almost 2000 years ago have brought humanity to the present level of knowledge many centuries earlier.

I think many people blame the scientific method and the scientific community, for the failings of the economic system which supports it. For example in the area of medicine research is funded where there is the a good chance of profit from the outcome. This means that an area which may have potential but little chance of a profitable return will receive no funding and therefore little to no research.

With regard to quantum mechanics, yes this may well demonstrate that everything in the universe is connected. That only strengthens the naturalistic case and pretty much kills off any evidence for the supernatural.


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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 15 Oct 2013, 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

MCalavera
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15 Oct 2013, 12:45 am

It's science itself that says our senses can't be trusted individually. Psychology is part of science (well, not all aspects of it, but most findings of psychology today have been scientifically derived).

Also, nobody is saying we aren't all connected in essence to each other and the universe. Just that it's not necessarily some supernatural divine entity that is the connection.



aghogday
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15 Oct 2013, 10:13 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
aghogday wrote:

So you have a very interesting religion my friend.. And a GOD called Science...



Pure and utter crap.

Human knowledge and ideas tested against nature to check their accuracy and discarded if no validating evidence is found is not a bloody religion, its rational, logical and has given us the modern world of medicine (oh yes, sorry I forgot, you claim to have been cured by god. I did try to find your medical records in the "million words" they must be in code because i could not find them), education, electricity, agriculture, transportation, clean drinking water, the internet you all love to use, the list of human advances since the implementation of the scientific method is incredible.

Perhaps all you who fight against verifiable human discoveries should stop using them and see just how long you last. I and many others have removed the idiocy of religion from our lives and guess what, we have no discernible disadvantage.


Hey dude..who the 'hell' do you think you are talking to..

I actually worked as a scientist..when I was still in College as a research associate...

I graduated 11 out of a class of 380 and have degrees in health science, anthropology.. and social sciences interdisciplinary AS A TRIPLE major all photographed many times in my blog..and this was only a speck of dust of the knowledge AND SKILLS of this complete life that I have gained in 53 years....

I understand science better than you likely ever will..

Here's the thing..
There is more to science than meets the eye...

When you believe that science will know it all my friend..that is faith...and faith is religion...like IT Or NOT..

So...if you have faith that science will find all the answers...in fact you have religion...

Study anthropology a little while..and you MAY understand the science of being human...

my friend.

PERIOD...

To understand EVEN A TINY APPROXIMATION OF IT all...

Means to move away from specialization in skills and knowLEdge...

WHO THE HELL HAS THE TIME FOR THAT...

I DO...

I DON'T WORK....
THAT
S
ALL ID O..

SO MOVE AHEAD IF YOU WILL..

AND LIVE

THAT'S
ALL THERE IS TO LIFE..

MY FRIEND...

AND YES IN EFFECT THAT
IS GOD2....


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Last edited by aghogday on 15 Oct 2013, 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

aghogday
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15 Oct 2013, 10:20 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
We have come a long way in understanding human psychology, trouble is people like you seem not to like the reality. I find it interesting that you do not seem to recognise the advent of the scientific method as the founder of the modern age. In fact had the world not been so tied up in superstition and subjective nonsense, the scientific discoveries coming from the"middle east" almost 2000 years ago have brought humanity to the present level of knowledge many centuries earlier.

I think many people blame the scientific method and the scientific community, for the failings of the economic system which supports it. For example in the area of medicine research is funded where there is the a good chance of profit from the outcome. This means that an area which may have potential but little chance of a profitable return will receive no funding and therefore little to no research.

With regard to quantum mechanics, yes this may well demonstrate that everything in the universe is connected. That only strengthens the naturalistic case and pretty much kills off any evidence for the supernatural.


Dont' you get IT..that means evidence for GOD..

Why the f*** would anyone believe that..that Which is GOD

IS ANYTHING BUT NATURAL....

NO BODY IN THIS DISCUSSION NOW IS DISAGREEING THAT GOD IS ANYTHING BUT NATURAL...

WE ARE NOT SAYING ANYTHING BUT GOD IS THE CONNECTEDNESS OF ALL..

BUT..

HERE'S THE THING..

IF YOU DO NOT FULLY EXPERIENCE THAT CONNECTEDNESS YOU DO NOT FULLY EXPERIENCE GOD...

SO IF YOU FEEL NONE OF THIS CONNECTEDNESS THERE IS NO GOD FOR YOU...

NOW I HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE BUT WHAT YOU FEEL..

BUT MY 'SPIDER SENSES' IF YOU WILL...

TELL ME YOU ARE ALMOST DEAD IN EFFECT..

AS FAR AS FEELING THIS CONNECTEDNESS THAT IS GOD...

AND HOW TO HELP YOU

I CAN ONLY TRY..

THAT IS ALL...

IT IS IS LOVE MY FRIEND...

AND NO NOT THATHATSTUFF IN PORNOGRAPHY....


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aghogday
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15 Oct 2013, 11:37 am

OK...

time for full disclosure here 'writenow'...i

If one will hear1!

I am trying to get people to more fully open their minds...

And no that is not just metaphor...

Modern Science now is just beginning to understand through research that there are tWO pathways in the brain...

ONe which is the pathway to human relationships with the objects in one's environment...or what one might describe as the logic..object relationships in life..

And another pathway to human relationships with other humans in social cognition...which one might describe as the empathy pathway to social relationships with others...

When one pathway is used to the exclusion of the other pathway..an atrophy can occur..as suggested in modern research..as to this pathway that either is 'logic' or 'empathy'...

So...to MORE fully experience this life or what can be described overall as GOD..one must exercise both the pathways of emotion/empathy and logic/systemizing at an equal rate of 'exercise'...

So to do this...what to do...

I developed my own religion..if one wills..

I practice making this pathway in my brain stronger..by singing in Church..practicing dance and TAI CHI movements in my backyard completely naked to feel all of nature on my body...

I also go up to complete strangers in stores and talk about whatever...

I walk in reverse sometimes very fast in super walmart..and even whirl and twirl like a ballerina...But in doing so in exercising all of my muscles I am incredibly strong now..like superman in actual effect of physical abilities..above and beyond most people who in effect only use half of their body to resist gravity in day to day life...

As a result I am fearless and full of love too..as all of this makes an excellent conversation piece of one wills where I can let that little 'god light' of mine shining more fully in the real world...

I f*****g hate religion for the most part..OK..because most religion is more in ultimate effect about hate instead of real love and lack of personal judgement against others...

But what I do like is living and love..that IS ALL and YES that is what I call GOD..in total affect and effect..if one wills....

So I invite you to read my blogs..and no I am not in this for any money..

I am a frigging financial genius too..

So I AM financially independent..2....

So here is the latest one...and if you think you got it difficult or challenging in your life...don't EVEN THINK about my health problems that I AM mostly over..just look at my 13 year old Autistic picture..and try to figure out how I got from there to here..@53..

Yeah... that's proof enough of some kind of higher power in this life that most people do not tap into ALL BY ITSELF! PERIOD.

YOU SEE I GOTTA SECRET AND IT IS THE POWER OF THIS THING I CALL GOD...

IT IS ALL IN ME...AND NOT SOME MAGICK MAN IN THE SKY....

AND IT IS YOURS TOO...

ALLYOU HAVE TO DO IS SAY YES TO YOU...NO ONE ELSE CAN BRING THIS HIGHER POWER TO YOU EXCEPT FOR YOU..AS IF IT IS TO BE IT IS ALL UP TO YOU....

NOW!

This is the last revision of the post..with everything I can think of to express this higher POwer that IS..in my life..as that's all any of US now is..IS..IS our life....fully...

ButYEs! we do all have the power to connect to each other when we make love as the light of being us always..

So be the light...if ONE can...or if one willS..

AS everyone plays a role!

In the total LOVE THAT IS GOD!

So move on and rolL..

Yeah! poetry is my religion2....

And yeah again..this is just my opinion...

This discussion forum isn't all about how everyone else finds GOD or doesn't find GOD..

It can also be how some of us actually

LIVE GOD..as a LIGHT and LOVE that IS GOD!!

Oh and i almost forgot the link..

HEREHEArITiS:

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2013/10/11/greitude/

Enjoy if one wills or not.

IF NOth@is certainly OK2or even 3 if one wills...


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15 Oct 2013, 3:46 pm

aghogday wrote:

Dont' you get IT..that means evidence for GOD..

Why the f*** would anyone believe that..that Which is GOD

IS ANYTHING BUT NATURL


So why then do you insist on calling nature, god. God in most peoples mind is Above nature, it is separate from nature. Nature is just what it is, there is no sentient guiding force, it is an interdependent process. Why confuse the issue.

And with regards to your "superhuman" status and "ballerina" like agility I have watched the "superhuman" briskly walking through Walmart, and then stop, panting like a pack a day smoker. You claim to have proof of your medical miracle any chance of providing it.


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