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ruveyn
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23 Oct 2013, 9:35 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
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Chimpanzees sometimes murder each other or kill the offspring of sexual rivals.

They are not cute animals at all.
Yes, I have even heard that they may eat their rivals but humans engage it torture, which is also not too cute.


And most humans object to torture. It is a mixed bag.

ruveyn



Sherlock03
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23 Oct 2013, 10:26 pm

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Do you think that an infant who cries when another cries is 'trying to get out of trouble'? Or that it's crying to be fed, or have his or her diaper changed?
Without knowing the situation you describe I couldn't make an educated guess.
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Another point wrt. slapstick comedy: part of what makes it funny is that no one is actually getting hurt. Humor comes in part from the unexpected, the thing that seemed dangerous but isn't actually dangerous; slapstick looks like someone is getting hurt, but they're still smiling even as they say, "Whoooaaahhh!" or "OoooOOOOwwww!" so what seems painful, isn't actually, and the audience knows that. Snowball fights cease to be fun for everybody if one kid starts packing their snowballs with ice or rocks.
Of course, you have no idea that the person is not severely injured or even dead when you laugh, yet people laugh any way, which makes it more instinctual amusement than sadness for the injured party.

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And most humans object to torture. It is a mixed bag.
Objecting appears to be more of a learned trait rather than innate, which would explain why torture varies culture to culture. There have been many studies and examples from history that show humans to be strangely sadistic.

The knowledge that we are naturally animalistic seems to frighten some people because people want to believe that they are incapable of malevolence. However, this knowledge should make people have more appreciation for the human mind and its ability to suppress some of our worst natural tendencies and become capable of benevolent deeds


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23 Oct 2013, 11:03 pm

I think that you and I must be thinking of different types of slapstick. I'm not thinking of 'America's funniest home videos,' I'm thinking of Leslie Nielsen or Monty Python ("I'm not dead yet!" or "Your arm's off!") - you can always tell that the actor is not actually injured or that he's deliberately making fun of himself, rather than being hurt or accidentally humiliating himself.
http://www.infancyresearch.com/pubs/Gea ... 202010.pdf
http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/dmessi ... opment.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/239268/Can_newb ... orn_infant
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031923/
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/12/2/175/



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24 Oct 2013, 11:01 am

I would be inclined to agree more with earlier studies of child empathy rather than modern studies, which at times lacked control groups and poor testing environment. The contagious crying study in particular had a few glaring holes of contention. First the study placed the infants in an environment where they were alone and thus more prone to cry. Second, the study lacked an efficient control , which was exposed to inert sound and pictures, such as the cry of a jackrabbit or a picture of a pumpkin . The study would have been more interesting if while the the child was crying the observed child in pain was comforted, while the test subject was left alone. It must be remembered that infants have few defense mechanisms so crying serves as a way to raise an alarm, which would remove them from a dangerous environment.


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24 Oct 2013, 8:44 pm

^that would indeed be an interesting study.

Did you see the one about rats freeing each other from confinement, even in the presence of bribes not to?



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24 Oct 2013, 10:06 pm

No, I didn't read that part but it sounds very interesting. I have seen strange behavior among animals before. I was out in a forest during an earthquake before and notice ten minutes before I felt the tremor that all the animals were very spooked, chattering ,and running all about ,then suddenly they grew very quiet about a minute before it hit. My favorite though was when I was on top of a large hill and saw hunters chasing a deer when it ran into a thicket and laid flat on the ground and remain completely still. The three hunters came within stepping on it yet it never moved a muscle. Thirty minutes after the hunters left the deer casualty walked off with its ninja like skills of concealment.


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Jono
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25 Oct 2013, 9:31 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
Quote:
Chimpanzees sometimes murder each other or kill the offspring of sexual rivals.

They are not cute animals at all.
Yes, I have even heard that they may eat their rivals but humans engage it torture, which is also not too cute.


And most humans object to torture. It is a mixed bag.

ruveyn


In addition to killing their offspring and each other, chimpanzees can show empathy too, just like humans.



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25 Oct 2013, 10:19 am

Sherlock03 wrote:
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There is no scientific evidence that mankind is inherently 'bad'...Social animals only survive through cooperation...


I suppose bad is subjective. Perhaps a better term would be savage.


What you are saying here is not supported at all by science...

There are thousands upon thousands of references that show that humans are cooperative with each other to survive above all other qualities...

NOw... I will tell you this.. if you are weak and do not fit in they will kick you out..but still the majority do get along..and cooperate and survive..

And humans have become increasingly domesticated over the last several thousands of years...at the advent of agriculture..where the fruit of cooperation was finally much longer periods of leisure time..to basically play and have a better time..as existing....simply alive...

So what IT boils down to IS THIS..a matter of individual perception..if no one accepts you..humans are horrible..but if everyone accepts you they are great folks...

So sorry if you experience the first scenario..as that is the way of nature..the weak die..and the strong survive...

But the weak can ALSO be strong...given the belief to be so.....and never give up on themselves or lose faith in other humans as the kind and cooperative species.. the species is overall to survive..and thrive as still is the case in societies.. that work....

The greatest misanthropes area those people who simply are not accepted by other human beings...

And the greatest philanthropes are the ones who always love and keep faith in their fellow human beings..no matter their personal challenges in life..or the 'bad apples'..that may come their way in social interaction...

All I know is loving human beings as that is all I see of human beings...in the majority of real flesh and blood interaction...

The fantasies on TV and the internet..are never representative of real life..where people have to get along to even survive...Most people..that IS.....


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25 Oct 2013, 10:22 am

Jono wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
Quote:
Chimpanzees sometimes murder each other or kill the offspring of sexual rivals.

They are not cute animals at all.
Yes, I have even heard that they may eat their rivals but humans engage it torture, which is also not too cute.


And most humans object to torture. It is a mixed bag.

ruveyn


In addition to killing their offspring and each other, chimpanzees can show empathy too, just like humans.


And even what appears to be altruism too.. in the latest research done..with chimpanzees...


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aghogday
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25 Oct 2013, 10:42 am

LKL wrote:
http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/december2011/12192011empathy.htm


Excellent article..

Here's the deal..

All social animals cooperate...that's how they survive..

And cooperation means there must be the intrinsic attribute of emotional contagion..as infants experience generating laughter simply being around other infants who are laughing...

The joy of being alive is empathy...

And unfortunately the core difficulty of autism is problems with empathy..where sometimes the emotional contagion is so far ramped up that emotions and empathy are eventually repressed..or there is an actual deficit of the intrinsic emotional contagion that all 'healthy animals' possess..as the core element to empathy..that drives social animals to cooperate and help each other...

And again as mentioned earlier..wolves have been dismissed for decades as horrible cruel animals..but they are among the kindest and most cooperative social animals that exist on the planet in the wild...where IT is only the bars of attempted domestication...that create real social interaction havoc among wolves..and therefore the distorted perceptions of these wonderfully cooperative... majestic animals in the wild....

And yeah..the same can be said for humans too...

Lock me up in an office behind a computer doing accounting all day...and yeah..I'm gonna lose some of my human empathy too...

As opposed to working with people and serving them..and helping them...

And yes..I speak from personal experience on that one...

Empathy is a learned skill too..that can be greater learned or greater lost...in the two pathways of the brain to either the mechanical cognition required for mechanical manipulation of the environment or the social cognition required for reciprocal social interaction...

Way back in the 80's when computer science was just getting started and even in Engineering departments in colleges..there was always the basic common sense caution provided that losing contact with human beings...will make a person dead in effect...in the ability to interact with others...

And yeah..with this comes the basic common sense...that our ways of lives with machines instead of people...is overall reducing the empathy of each individual on average..in society...

And yeah..there is even studies that back this up showing a decrease in scientifically measured levels of empathy among young adults in college in the last several decades dropping as much as 30% per the scientific method used to measure empathy...

So no s**t Autism rates are going up at least in part for this reason...as skills in both emotional empathy and cognitive empathy are definitely required for successful reciprocal social communication...

Wow...I cannot believe the number of people that cannot see this simple fact in action...

But if one has never seen both sides of this coin IT can be very hard to explain and/or understand...

As without the actual experience of empathy...both emotional and cognitive...there is really no reference point sometimes to understand this...If a person experiences life without that full range of empathy from birth....

The only way I can see that anyone would think that humans are inherently 'savage' or 'bad' is if they did not actually fully experience both emotional and cognitive empathy..as this is where the real source of trust and loyalty among human beings and all other social animals comes from...period...

Empathy is basically LoVE..that's all there is too IT....

Without IT there is no real LOVE..most unfortunately and most sadly too...

AS some of those lacking in IT have absolutely no reference point to ever understand this....

And yeah..that's just life..IT's never fair...

IT's only what we make IT..

So IF IT is to BE IT's up to ME..

And yeah..the same for 'you' too...

Even to reciprocally socially communicate...among others for real success in social interaction that makes life 'real'

If one WILLS....

And by the way..LKL..not directing this comment to you in a personal way..just a general discussion of the topic..if you will....


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25 Oct 2013, 3:13 pm

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What you are saying here is not supported at all by science...

There are thousands upon thousands of references that show that humans are cooperative with each other to survive above all other qualities...

NOw... I will tell you this.. if you are weak and do not fit in they will kick you out..but still the majority do get along..and cooperate and survive..

And humans have become increasingly domesticated over the last several thousands of years...at the advent of agriculture..where the fruit of cooperation was finally much longer periods of leisure time..to basically play and have a better time..as existing....simply alive...

So what IT boils down to IS THIS..a matter of individual perception..if no one accepts you..humans are horrible..but if everyone accepts you they are great folks...

So sorry if you experience the first scenario..as that is the way of nature..the weak die..and the strong survive...

But the weak can ALSO be strong...given the belief to be so.....and never give up on themselves or lose faith in other humans as the kind and cooperative species.. the species is overall to survive..and thrive as still is the case in societies.. that work....

The greatest misanthropes area those people who simply are not accepted by other human beings...

And the greatest philanthropes are the ones who always love and keep faith in their fellow human beings..no matter their personal challenges in life..or the 'bad apples'..that may come their way in social interaction...

All I know is loving human beings as that is all I see of human beings...in the majority of real flesh and blood interaction...

The fantasies on TV and the internet..are never representative of real life..where people have to get along to even survive...Most people..that IS.....
Okay lets dispel with a couple of misconceptions you have about me and this discussion. First, I have no experience which causes me to be cynical, because I am not. I simply acknowledge the defects of human nature and our ability to overcome it. Second, I never said that people cannot be good. I only insist that we are not born good. Also, it is important to remember that Psychology is NOT a science, it's a study and even if it were, scientific findings are still open for discussion. Not being 100% sure is one of the beauties of science, which allow the reader to question the conclusions and attempt to provide alternative causes. You appear to want science elevated to a religion and destroy that which separate science from blind faith. Psyc research papers and studies are simply observable and unobservable reactions to a particular stimulus. The results can and do change. Under different situations with the suggestions I have described, I am confident the findings would be in favor of my assertion, however, that would not be "proof". This is a philosophical discussion, which will not warrant a perfect conclusion, simply a more agreed upon one.


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25 Oct 2013, 11:10 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
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What you are saying here is not supported at all by science...

There are thousands upon thousands of references that show that humans are cooperative with each other to survive above all other qualities...

NOw... I will tell you this.. if you are weak and do not fit in they will kick you out..but still the majority do get along..and cooperate and survive..

And humans have become increasingly domesticated over the last several thousands of years...at the advent of agriculture..where the fruit of cooperation was finally much longer periods of leisure time..to basically play and have a better time..as existing....simply alive...

So what IT boils down to IS THIS..a matter of individual perception..if no one accepts you..humans are horrible..but if everyone accepts you they are great folks...

So sorry if you experience the first scenario..as that is the way of nature..the weak die..and the strong survive...

But the weak can ALSO be strong...given the belief to be so.....and never give up on themselves or lose faith in other humans as the kind and cooperative species.. the species is overall to survive..and thrive as still is the case in societies.. that work....

The greatest misanthropes area those people who simply are not accepted by other human beings...

And the greatest philanthropes are the ones who always love and keep faith in their fellow human beings..no matter their personal challenges in life..or the 'bad apples'..that may come their way in social interaction...

All I know is loving human beings as that is all I see of human beings...in the majority of real flesh and blood interaction...

The fantasies on TV and the internet..are never representative of real life..where people have to get along to even survive...Most people..that IS.....
Okay lets dispel with a couple of misconceptions you have about me and this discussion. First, I have no experience which causes me to be cynical, because I am not. I simply acknowledge the defects of human nature and our ability to overcome it. Second, I never said that people cannot be good. I only insist that we are not born good. Also, it is important to remember that Psychology is NOT a science, it's a study and even if it were, scientific findings are still open for discussion. Not being 100% sure is one of the beauties of science, which allow the reader to question the conclusions and attempt to provide alternative causes. You appear to want science elevated to a religion and destroy that which separate science from blind faith. Psyc research papers and studies are simply observable and unobservable reactions to a particular stimulus. The results can and do change. Under different situations with the suggestions I have described, I am confident the findings would be in favor of my assertion, however, that would not be "proof". This is a philosophical discussion, which will not warrant a perfect conclusion, simply a more agreed upon one.


Actually.. Psychology is a science and is even included in the STEM classification for government funding in higher education..

They use the same scientific method...as any other science to test hypotheses and come to discussion and results...

And listen..I worked with the general public for two decades and have watched children from birth..and have personally interacted with tens of thousands of people..

I can count the number of bad apples I came across on two hands...

Perhaps people are not treating your kindly or perhaps you perceive it that way..but in general people do cooperate..and care for each other..at least those who have full access to emotional and cognitive empathy...

Additionally Anthropology..which happens to be my degree along with a degree in health science and social sciences interdisciplinary..also agree in all the research done that even prehistoric man was cooperative..and even cared for individuals with disabilities in some cases...did funeral rites..and all the other stuff commonly associated with religion...

Man is inherently cooperative..just like another social animal...Otherwise there would be no people on the planet..

Same as with any other social animal....

But don't feel bad..misanthropy is a common issue among people on the autism spectrum..as a result of non-acceptance and bullying...

And yeah..I experienced all of that when I was young..like so many other people do...but I decided early on that I was going to be a survivor not a not a victim..a few years later people referred to me as their favorite person..simply as I was not personally judgmental of other people...and I kept a smile on my face..as yes..I enjoy surviving and still do....

I experienced some of the most serious health problems that exists among mankind...and a big part of why I am almost recovered now..Is that same spirit of surving instead of being the victim...

I see the victim philosophy too much..and It's sad..

And no this is not directed at you personally...like you say IT is also a Philosophical discussion...

But as far as Science goes...there is no question that all social animals..cooperate at the basic level of instinct to survive..that's just simple evolutionary advantage..that Is ALL...

And no science is not my GOD..but yeah..IT IS part of GOD..as far as I see....


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25 Oct 2013, 11:49 pm

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Actually.. Psychology is a science and is even included in the STEM classification for government funding in higher education..
I disagree and so do others http://mindhacks.com/2013/08/20/dont-pa ... a-science/ it is too subjective to be classified as science ( not to get off topic). The studies I have read on this subject were poorly conducted and the extraneous variables were not properly contained. If empathy were innate why must the behavior be cultivated and continual reinforced through development.Also, why should humans breach such conduct when it is supposed to be redundant to our very nature?


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26 Oct 2013, 12:05 am

Sherlock03 wrote:
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Actually.. Psychology is a science and is even included in the STEM classification for government funding in higher education..
I disagree and so do others http://mindhacks.com/2013/08/20/dont-pa ... a-science/ it is too subjective to be classified as science ( not to get off topic). The studies I have read on this subject were poorly conducted and the extraneous variables were not properly contained. If empathy were innate why must the behavior be cultivated and continual reinforced through development.Also, why should humans breach such conduct when it is supposed to be redundant to our very nature?


Really..mind hacks ...over Federal Government Classification...

I'll have to take the government over one website.. my friend...

The government has thousands of scientists both government service and contractors..that come to these decisions based on the consensus of some of the top science minds and opinions in the country...

Tom Insel.. who is the head of the National Institutes of Mental Health...is considered a 'rock star' of science....

My friend.. the emotional contagion of empathy is not considered full empathy...but IT is core to what eventually becomes full empathy..along with cognitive empathy..or the language and cognition required to understand the emotional experiences of others..

And there is absolutely no question that this emotional contagion..is a 'normal' innate quality...and again..not just for human beings..for other social animals like rats..wolves..and all the other successful social animals...

But again...there are some disorders including autism were some people suffer little to no emotional contagion..that can be observed through behavioral analysis...

One of the biggest issues with difficulties with empathy are parents who are not nurturing...It can be a vicious cycle as it is genetic..at least in part..

Some people are innately more empathic than other people..and even androgens..are understood to influence empathy as well..particularly the nurturing type of empathy..that many people on the spectrum are deficient in..possibly as a result of lower naturally occurring levels of oxytocin...


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26 Oct 2013, 10:09 am

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Really..mind hacks ...over Federal Government Classification...

I'll have to take the government over one website.. my friend...
Ha, that's funny considering government classifications in the past :lol: Point of fact it is not simply one website but a debate in general. I would suggest you view the evidence presented by both sides before you draw a conclusion.

So, empathy is an innate quality which is part of your genetic makeup. You claim to have been around thousands of children and will undoubtedly have witnessed young children stealing and harming other young children. How do you explain this behavior, which appears to contradict their natural and ingrained tendencies. Why does one child with a toy cry when he has a toy that the other child is crying for. Because the child wants to keep the toy and cries to maintain it. Why does a child cry after he hurts another child. Because he wants to avoid punishment. Crying does not always equate to sadness , nor do expressions of sadness equate to empathy.


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