"I resign my roles at Autism Speaks" John Robison
18 Nov 2013, 12:25 pm
Oh, yes, her tactics are effective; I'm not doubting that. They're effective for getting money and spreading her brand of bigoted "awareness". But they're not effective for doing anything useful for autistics, whether they're autistics posting on WP with highly-literate arguments, autistics using a few words to make simple requests, or autistics who don't do language to begin with.
The power of emotional appeals is undeniable. But it doesn't have to be done the way she's doing it.
Consider this sort of advertisement, raising money for research to help autistic children learn:
Quote:
Scene: In the middle of a dance club, lights flashing, a class of students is trying to learn algebra. The teacher's words are drowned out by the pounding music. Someone spills a drink onto your textbook. A desk is toppled by a drunken partygoer. Zoom in on one of the students, who is covering his ears with his hands and looking miserable.
Voiceover: "Could you learn in a place like this?"
Scene: a young child in the middle of a special ed classroom, lights bright and chaos all around. The child is covering his ears, rocking. The sensory qualities remind you of the dance club, in miniature.
Voiceover: "Many autistic children have to try."
Scene: A child in a neat, quiet environment, working one-on-one with a patient teacher, hesitantly pointing to a picture card. Discovering that he's gotten it, the child looks up, grinning and flapping his hands in excitement.
Voiceover: "Help create a world where every child can learn."
Onscreen: Autism Speaks. Donate Today.
Voiceover: "Could you learn in a place like this?"
Scene: a young child in the middle of a special ed classroom, lights bright and chaos all around. The child is covering his ears, rocking. The sensory qualities remind you of the dance club, in miniature.
Voiceover: "Many autistic children have to try."
Scene: A child in a neat, quiet environment, working one-on-one with a patient teacher, hesitantly pointing to a picture card. Discovering that he's gotten it, the child looks up, grinning and flapping his hands in excitement.
Voiceover: "Help create a world where every child can learn."
Onscreen: Autism Speaks. Donate Today.
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18 Nov 2013, 12:43 pm
Callista wrote:
Oh, yes, her tactics are effective; I'm not doubting that. They're effective for getting money and spreading her brand of bigoted "awareness". But they're not effective for doing anything useful for autistics, whether they're autistics posting on WP with highly-literate arguments, autistics using a few words to make simple requests, or autistics who don't do language to begin with.
The power of emotional appeals is undeniable. But it doesn't have to be done the way she's doing it.
Consider this sort of advertisement, raising money for research to help autistic children learn:
The power of emotional appeals is undeniable. But it doesn't have to be done the way she's doing it.
Consider this sort of advertisement, raising money for research to help autistic children learn:
Quote:
Scene: In the middle of a dance club, lights flashing, a class of students is trying to learn algebra. The teacher's words are drowned out by the pounding music. Someone spills a drink onto your textbook. A desk is toppled by a drunken partygoer. Zoom in on one of the students, who is covering his ears with his hands and looking miserable.
Voiceover: "Could you learn in a place like this?"
Scene: a young child in the middle of a special ed classroom, lights bright and chaos all around. The child is covering his ears, rocking. The sensory qualities remind you of the dance club, in miniature.
Voiceover: "Many autistic children have to try."
Scene: A child in a neat, quiet environment, working one-on-one with a patient teacher, hesitantly pointing to a picture card. Discovering that he's gotten it, the child looks up, grinning and flapping his hands in excitement.
Voiceover: "Help create a world where every child can learn."
Onscreen: Autism Speaks. Donate Today.
Voiceover: "Could you learn in a place like this?"
Scene: a young child in the middle of a special ed classroom, lights bright and chaos all around. The child is covering his ears, rocking. The sensory qualities remind you of the dance club, in miniature.
Voiceover: "Many autistic children have to try."
Scene: A child in a neat, quiet environment, working one-on-one with a patient teacher, hesitantly pointing to a picture card. Discovering that he's gotten it, the child looks up, grinning and flapping his hands in excitement.
Voiceover: "Help create a world where every child can learn."
Onscreen: Autism Speaks. Donate Today.
Again..Callista.. my point is that Autism Speaks is not targeting the folks that are ever going to even have the opportunity to be an Algebra Class..
So in reality..this not even on their plate of concerns..
Regardless of whatever lip service one might hear..from a little area on their website...
And nah..that's not a good thing for anyone here...
But for those children like mine who actually died from a co-morbid condition related to the reciprocal social communication difficulties that Autism Speaks is funding research dollars for...
For potential real life solutions sometime in the future...
It is simply a life or death situation...
NOt an issue of sensory difficulties in an Algebra Class...
Autism Speaks is not going away..number one..and they will continue to thrive..as these are real life and death issues that are not going to go away anytime soon that the general public is well aware of...
But number two.. is actually finding a way to help people on this website adapt to life..as society is simply not in effect going to be able to provide the solutions for that...
There is simply not the money for government to ever offer these type of accommodations for children in school...
So there is only one answer..find ways to adapt to what is..
Or perish..
Sad but so so true..
In real life..
So what to do..
Adapt
or Perish..after all is said and done..in all human history..
That is the way it has always been..
And there is simply not the government resources..and ever draining fewer resources to change anything of substance in the future..
as compared to what we have today...
But where optimism can come is through individual ingenuity and out of the box solutions..to make life better..for what it simply IS...
Complaining about what IS..
IS simply a waste of time..
In only my opinion...
But changing things for the better with what one HAS..
IS
THe
WAy to go..
In only my opinion..2
I actually did cure the reciprocal social communication difficulties associated with my Autism as I now score an 11 on the AQ test as opposed to 44 to 45 just months ago...
The only thing about me that may be different..is that on a personal level..I am a survivor not a victim..and I found my own way to do it..as no one else could provide a way for me...
And nah..i realize not everyone can do that..
But who knows..
Maybe
Someone else..
can..
I guess that is where Optimism..can come from..as IT is surely hard to gain success in this life..with difficulties effectively reciprocally socially communicating with other human social animals...
As far as i can see..anything else is an illusion...
a
Gain..in only my opinion...
friend...
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18 Nov 2013, 1:49 pm
The signal to gish gallop ratio in this thread is atrocious. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
Any criticism of Autism Speaks is met with this. It's not possible to discuss Autism Speaks critically on this forum because you will be flooded with so many statements that it is simply impossible to address all of them. And many of them contradictory: Aghogday yesterday said he was critical of Wright's op-ed. Today he says that Wright understands the real world and that her rhetoric is necessary. That doesn't sound very critical at all.
The argument that the suffering related to autism is so extreme, the crisis so severe, that we must immediately and not stop to question what it is we are doing to autistic children is exactly the argument used to bypass clinical trials and ethical considerations with regards to ABA. It's an emotion-laden argument (coming from someone complaining about other people's emotions) that has no bearing in fact. It's nothing more than "fear, uncertainty, and doubt." http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fear,_Unce ... _and_Doubt
A few days ago Autism Speaks was the major autism-related charity doing great work for all autistic people. Today it's a tiny organization barely worth being on anyone's radar (pay no attention to the multiple millions of dollars it brings in and uses primarily to pay its board and secondarily to fund tail-chasing research, or how it uses the real clout it does have to propagandize a very specific, very negative view of autism). It's interesting how the profile changes to match the argument, innit?
And how about the gaslighting about "illusory fears?" Which illusory fears are we talking about here, exactly? That autism is presented as a soul-destroying plague on society that must be annihilated at all costs? Because I am fairly certain that is precisely the message Wright communicated.
Plus the fact that the very message Wright uses is the same rhetoric that is used to make excuses for and justify parents murdering their disabled children (and I make this statement in full knowledge that your other pet topic is making excuses for and justifying parents murdering their disabled children - trying to plead for special circumstances and sympathy for the murderers rather than the victims).
The notion that we shouldn't call what JRC does torture because "torture is a loaded word" is ridiculous. The word is loaded, but that's because torture is an extreme action. What JRC does to the children and teens in its care is torture. It's not any kind of therapy unless the goal of your therapy is to traumatize and terrorize children. Also, it is quite true that talking about torture can be used to deflect doing anything about torture. Here's an example of such deflection:
littlebee wrote:
As far as this organization supporting so called torture (if it even is---yes, it sure sounds like it is but that is a loaded phrase)...I can see why someone would mention that, and think it is good that they did stick it in, but imo the way people responded deflected the participants on this thread from sorting things out.
This is a perfect example of deflecting discussion to prevent action. Similarly (although I won't quote it) is the assertion that if you're really truly against torture, you should throw away your entire life and devote all of your time to trying to stop it. That is, setting such an impossible standard for compliance that it automatically disqualifies anyone and everyone who is not independently wealthy and has practical concerns that cannot be met by simply hoping for them.
But in that paragraph, the phrase "so-called torture" and calling the use of the word "torture" a loaded phrase are ways to call the legitimacy of the label into question, to ask whether or not administering extremely painful electric shocks to a child multiple times throughout a given day, sometimes for very long stretches, with a device that is stronger than a taser, can really be called torture.
And yes, I did pick only a few points to respond to. As I said above this thread is an extended gish gallop at this point. There's no reason (nor does anyone have the energy) to address every single point.
18 Nov 2013, 2:06 pm
Quote:
Again..Callista.. my point is that Autism Speaks is not targeting the folks that are ever going to even have the opportunity to be an Algebra Class..
So in reality..this not even on their plate of concerns..
So in reality..this not even on their plate of concerns..
I'm not talking about algebra class, either. I used it as an example that NTs could relate to--a relatively difficult subject that takes concentration. A non-verbal autistic child learning how to use PECS is also trying to learn something difficult that takes concentration, and trying to learn in an unfriendly environment is very much like trying to learn algebra in a chaotic place. That's why I called it an "emotional appeal"; it is meant to evoke the same feelings of frustration and confusion in the NT audience that a non-verbal child trying to learn how to communicate might feel if they were taught in an inappropriate, chaotic way.
Autism Speaks hurts autistic people with the assumption that they can't do algebra. In fact, there are non-verbal autistics who can do algebra. But that's not really the point--it's that they're starting with this fundamental assumption of inability and worthlessness. According to Autism Speaks, if you're autistic, then you can't learn things, can't be happy, can't get better; if you do anything positive, it's because you're getting less autistic. It's the autism that's holding you back and the only way to make your life worthwhile is to get rid of the autism. But that's not true. In fact, non-verbal, severely disabled autistics who can't do algebra, can be happy, can do useful things, can have worthwhile lives. By implying that autism makes you not quite human and your life not really worth it, Autism Speaks hurts these severely disabled autistics, denies them opportunities, denies their skills, and places them at risk of abuse, neglect, and even murder.
_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com
Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com
18 Nov 2013, 2:25 pm
Verdandi wrote:
The signal to gish gallop ratio in this thread is atrocious. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
(snip)
The notion that we shouldn't call what JRC does torture because "torture is a loaded word" is ridiculous. The word is loaded, but that's because torture is an extreme action.
I never said not to call it torture. The main idea is that it is a loaded word that deflected the conversation by arousing extreme emotional responses in people who most likely will not do anything about it....
What JRC does to the children and teens in its care is torture. It's not any kind of therapy unless the goal of your therapy is to traumatize and terrorize children. Also, it is quite true that talking about torture can be used to deflect doing anything about torture. Here's an example of such deflection:
Your're in a way different world than me. The first step is to think clearly. The messages you are criticizing are to me from people who are thinking way more clearly than you and trying to really sort things out in a way that will result in more power to actually stop all kinds of torture.
Verdandi my dear...of course when I wrote this I knew you would be responding to it, and yet you are the last person I would like to elicit a response from at this point as imo your own over-proliferation is what has created such a maze of talking here, and you just cannot stop, which would be fine if you really were accomplishing something, so it since it is obvious what your response would be, what was I reaslly trying to say that was so important that I risked it?: Could it be something that you missed? I will say you provide great contrast.
This is a perfect example of deflecting discussion to prevent action.
You seem to be saying I am trying to stop people from preventing torture. That is a big stretch. If you are talking about yourself preventing torture, I do not see you as doing that.
Similarly (although I won't quote it) is the assertion that if you're really truly against torture, you should throw away your entire life and devote all of your time to trying to stop it. That is, setting such an impossible standard for compliance that it automatically disqualifies anyone and everyone who is not independently wealthy and has practical concerns that cannot be met by simply hoping for them.
Of course it is an impossible standard, but that is allegorical material, in a sense. Is it remotely possibly you could benefit yourself and others by developing an ability to read comprehensively and digest inner meaning, subtle nuances? I suggest you try to do that as then you will be able to help people more effectively.
But in that paragraph, the phrase "so-called torture" and calling the use of the word "torture" a loaded phrase are ways to call the legitimacy of the label into question, to ask whether or not administering extremely painful electric shocks to a child multiple times throughout a given day, sometimes for very long stretches, with a device that is stronger than a taser, can really be called torture.
And yes, I did pick only a few points to respond to. As I said above this thread is an extended gish gallop at this point. There's no reason (nor does anyone have the energy) to address every single point
Agreed. Select what is meaningful to respond to, of course, but your messages tend toward a subtle but intentional form of bias or slant that could be interpreted as slander. .
(snip)
The notion that we shouldn't call what JRC does torture because "torture is a loaded word" is ridiculous. The word is loaded, but that's because torture is an extreme action.
I never said not to call it torture. The main idea is that it is a loaded word that deflected the conversation by arousing extreme emotional responses in people who most likely will not do anything about it....
What JRC does to the children and teens in its care is torture. It's not any kind of therapy unless the goal of your therapy is to traumatize and terrorize children. Also, it is quite true that talking about torture can be used to deflect doing anything about torture. Here's an example of such deflection:
Your're in a way different world than me. The first step is to think clearly. The messages you are criticizing are to me from people who are thinking way more clearly than you and trying to really sort things out in a way that will result in more power to actually stop all kinds of torture.
littlebee wrote:
As far as this organization supporting so called torture (if it even is---yes, it sure sounds like it is but that is a loaded phrase)...I can see why someone would mention that, and think it is good that they did stick it in, but imo the way people responded deflected the participants on this thread from sorting things out.
Verdandi my dear...of course when I wrote this I knew you would be responding to it, and yet you are the last person I would like to elicit a response from at this point as imo your own over-proliferation is what has created such a maze of talking here, and you just cannot stop, which would be fine if you really were accomplishing something, so it since it is obvious what your response would be, what was I reaslly trying to say that was so important that I risked it?: Could it be something that you missed? I will say you provide great contrast.
This is a perfect example of deflecting discussion to prevent action.
You seem to be saying I am trying to stop people from preventing torture. That is a big stretch. If you are talking about yourself preventing torture, I do not see you as doing that.
Similarly (although I won't quote it) is the assertion that if you're really truly against torture, you should throw away your entire life and devote all of your time to trying to stop it. That is, setting such an impossible standard for compliance that it automatically disqualifies anyone and everyone who is not independently wealthy and has practical concerns that cannot be met by simply hoping for them.
Of course it is an impossible standard, but that is allegorical material, in a sense. Is it remotely possibly you could benefit yourself and others by developing an ability to read comprehensively and digest inner meaning, subtle nuances? I suggest you try to do that as then you will be able to help people more effectively.
But in that paragraph, the phrase "so-called torture" and calling the use of the word "torture" a loaded phrase are ways to call the legitimacy of the label into question, to ask whether or not administering extremely painful electric shocks to a child multiple times throughout a given day, sometimes for very long stretches, with a device that is stronger than a taser, can really be called torture.
And yes, I did pick only a few points to respond to. As I said above this thread is an extended gish gallop at this point. There's no reason (nor does anyone have the energy) to address every single point
Agreed. Select what is meaningful to respond to, of course, but your messages tend toward a subtle but intentional form of bias or slant that could be interpreted as slander. .
Last edited by littlebee on 18 Nov 2013, 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
18 Nov 2013, 2:27 pm
Verdandi wrote:
The signal to gish gallop ratio in this thread is atrocious. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
Any criticism of Autism Speaks is met with this. It's not possible to discuss Autism Speaks critically on this forum because you will be flooded with so many statements that it is simply impossible to address all of them. And many of them contradictory: Aghogday yesterday said he was critical of Wright's op-ed. Today he says that Wright understands the real world and that her rhetoric is necessary. That doesn't sound very critical at all.
The argument that the suffering related to autism is so extreme, the crisis so severe, that we must immediately and not stop to question what it is we are doing to autistic children is exactly the argument used to bypass clinical trials and ethical considerations with regards to ABA. It's an emotion-laden argument (coming from someone complaining about other people's emotions) that has no bearing in fact. It's nothing more than "fear, uncertainty, and doubt." http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fear,_Unce ... _and_Doubt
A few days ago Autism Speaks was the major autism-related charity doing great work for all autistic people. Today it's a tiny organization barely worth being on anyone's radar (pay no attention to the multiple millions of dollars it brings in and uses primarily to pay its board and secondarily to fund tail-chasing research, or how it uses the real clout it does have to propagandize a very specific, very negative view of autism). It's interesting how the profile changes to match the argument, innit?
And how about the gaslighting about "illusory fears?" Which illusory fears are we talking about here, exactly? That autism is presented as a soul-destroying plague on society that must be annihilated at all costs? Because I am fairly certain that is precisely the message Wright communicated.
Plus the fact that the very message Wright uses is the same rhetoric that is used to make excuses for and justify parents murdering their disabled children (and I make this statement in full knowledge that your other pet topic is making excuses for and justifying parents murdering their disabled children - trying to plead for special circumstances and sympathy for the murderers rather than the victims).
The notion that we shouldn't call what JRC does torture because "torture is a loaded word" is ridiculous. The word is loaded, but that's because torture is an extreme action. What JRC does to the children and teens in its care is torture. It's not any kind of therapy unless the goal of your therapy is to traumatize and terrorize children. Also, it is quite true that talking about torture can be used to deflect doing anything about torture. Here's an example of such deflection:
This is a perfect example of deflecting discussion to prevent action. Similarly (although I won't quote it) is the assertion that if you're really truly against torture, you should throw away your entire life and devote all of your time to trying to stop it. That is, setting such an impossible standard for compliance that it automatically disqualifies anyone and everyone who is not independently wealthy and has practical concerns that cannot be met by simply hoping for them.
But in that paragraph, the phrase "so-called torture" and calling the use of the word "torture" a loaded phrase are ways to call the legitimacy of the label into question, to ask whether or not administering extremely painful electric shocks to a child multiple times throughout a given day, sometimes for very long stretches, with a device that is stronger than a taser, can really be called torture.
And yes, I did pick only a few points to respond to. As I said above this thread is an extended gish gallop at this point. There's no reason (nor does anyone have the energy) to address every single point.
Any criticism of Autism Speaks is met with this. It's not possible to discuss Autism Speaks critically on this forum because you will be flooded with so many statements that it is simply impossible to address all of them. And many of them contradictory: Aghogday yesterday said he was critical of Wright's op-ed. Today he says that Wright understands the real world and that her rhetoric is necessary. That doesn't sound very critical at all.
The argument that the suffering related to autism is so extreme, the crisis so severe, that we must immediately and not stop to question what it is we are doing to autistic children is exactly the argument used to bypass clinical trials and ethical considerations with regards to ABA. It's an emotion-laden argument (coming from someone complaining about other people's emotions) that has no bearing in fact. It's nothing more than "fear, uncertainty, and doubt." http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fear,_Unce ... _and_Doubt
A few days ago Autism Speaks was the major autism-related charity doing great work for all autistic people. Today it's a tiny organization barely worth being on anyone's radar (pay no attention to the multiple millions of dollars it brings in and uses primarily to pay its board and secondarily to fund tail-chasing research, or how it uses the real clout it does have to propagandize a very specific, very negative view of autism). It's interesting how the profile changes to match the argument, innit?
And how about the gaslighting about "illusory fears?" Which illusory fears are we talking about here, exactly? That autism is presented as a soul-destroying plague on society that must be annihilated at all costs? Because I am fairly certain that is precisely the message Wright communicated.
Plus the fact that the very message Wright uses is the same rhetoric that is used to make excuses for and justify parents murdering their disabled children (and I make this statement in full knowledge that your other pet topic is making excuses for and justifying parents murdering their disabled children - trying to plead for special circumstances and sympathy for the murderers rather than the victims).
The notion that we shouldn't call what JRC does torture because "torture is a loaded word" is ridiculous. The word is loaded, but that's because torture is an extreme action. What JRC does to the children and teens in its care is torture. It's not any kind of therapy unless the goal of your therapy is to traumatize and terrorize children. Also, it is quite true that talking about torture can be used to deflect doing anything about torture. Here's an example of such deflection:
littlebee wrote:
As far as this organization supporting so called torture (if it even is---yes, it sure sounds like it is but that is a loaded phrase)...I can see why someone would mention that, and think it is good that they did stick it in, but imo the way people responded deflected the participants on this thread from sorting things out.
This is a perfect example of deflecting discussion to prevent action. Similarly (although I won't quote it) is the assertion that if you're really truly against torture, you should throw away your entire life and devote all of your time to trying to stop it. That is, setting such an impossible standard for compliance that it automatically disqualifies anyone and everyone who is not independently wealthy and has practical concerns that cannot be met by simply hoping for them.
But in that paragraph, the phrase "so-called torture" and calling the use of the word "torture" a loaded phrase are ways to call the legitimacy of the label into question, to ask whether or not administering extremely painful electric shocks to a child multiple times throughout a given day, sometimes for very long stretches, with a device that is stronger than a taser, can really be called torture.
And yes, I did pick only a few points to respond to. As I said above this thread is an extended gish gallop at this point. There's no reason (nor does anyone have the energy) to address every single point.
Life is simply never black and white..Verdandi...
One can attempt to understand why someone does something and be critical at the same time..
Perfect example..mentally ill individuals that attempt to murder their children and their selves..with or without success....
That is never a black and white issue..except for people that attempt to pretend it as such....
The reality is that many people on the spectrum have extreme difficulties with this type of rigid thinking so one would inherently expect this difficulty on this thread ..so that in my opinion should be understood too...
That is why you will never find me personally attacking you by name...as I have pretty good idea of your motivations...although i could be incorrect.....
It is tactfully incorrect for Ms. Wright not to consider the minority of individuals on the spectrum that the government does consider not to have needs for substantial supports...
But on the other hand..there is a concise and distinct advantage to her methods..per the science of political advantage....
That part is only common sense..but not everyone is versed in the unspoken rules of politics..either..so there is room for understanding in that area of discourse too...
The bottom line is Autism Speaks is not going anywhere and they are going to thrive no matter what is said in this discussion or anywhere else among the several thousand people on the internet..suggesting they are on an autism spectrum..that may at some time or another discuss this issue of disgust against the organization...
On the other hand there are potentially constructive goals and actions that can be attained that might actually help someone in life..on the spectrum..this is what Autism Speaks does in total effect..with the help of over 400 thousand volunteers...
So this discussion is just rhetoric again as I say..but even rhetoric has it's place and purpose..in life 2.....
But action in real life..is more than anything what makes actual people's lives better....
A
GAIN..
IN REAL LIFE....
_________________
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18 Nov 2013, 2:35 pm
Callista wrote:
Quote:
Again..Callista.. my point is that Autism Speaks is not targeting the folks that are ever going to even have the opportunity to be an Algebra Class..
So in reality..this not even on their plate of concerns..
So in reality..this not even on their plate of concerns..
I'm not talking about algebra class, either. I used it as an example that NTs could relate to--a relatively difficult subject that takes concentration. A non-verbal autistic child learning how to use PECS is also trying to learn something difficult that takes concentration, and trying to learn in an unfriendly environment is very much like trying to learn algebra in a chaotic place. That's why I called it an "emotional appeal"; it is meant to evoke the same feelings of frustration and confusion in the NT audience that a non-verbal child trying to learn how to communicate might feel if they were taught in an inappropriate, chaotic way.
Autism Speaks hurts autistic people with the assumption that they can't do algebra. In fact, there are non-verbal autistics who can do algebra. But that's not really the point--it's that they're starting with this fundamental assumption of inability and worthlessness. According to Autism Speaks, if you're autistic, then you can't learn things, can't be happy, can't get better; if you do anything positive, it's because you're getting less autistic. It's the autism that's holding you back and the only way to make your life worthwhile is to get rid of the autism. But that's not true. In fact, non-verbal, severely disabled autistics who can't do algebra, can be happy, can do useful things, can have worthwhile lives. By implying that autism makes you not quite human and your life not really worth it, Autism Speaks hurts these severely disabled autistics, denies them opportunities, denies their skills, and places them at risk of abuse, neglect, and even murder.
Again Autism Speaks as a professional organization clearly identifies on their website that there are individuals similar to you and I..that have great potentials.and great abilities..
So they hold no secret on that...
On the other hand they understand the realities of life and death..too..
So of course that is where their priorities..number one lie....
As i think you know the abstract construct of Autism that is defined by the American Psychological Association..is a very broad and all encompassing construct..that covers scores of serious genetic diseases..health problems..and other human issues that are associated with autism..
NO one organization can possibly meet all the needs of this very poorly defined per specificity..Abstract concept of a disorder..that no one still clearly understands at all..per biological pinnings..overall...
Science Research organizations..are the only hope of really finding answers to the full complexity of what underlies all individuals difficulties with reciprocal social communication..that move to the level of an actual potential for an autism spectrum diagnosis..
This is what Autism Speaks does...
But obviously it can not meet the needs of all people on the spectrum...
Generating only about 60 million dollars a year..with real life expense..to orchestrate a non-profit..global charity....
It is more complex than any one individual could wrap their minds a around on this forum..any research scientist..or any individual associated with any organization...
It requires a team...
And that is what charitable organizations do..
They make a team effort..
To solve the problems that they can...
And do what ever they can to help those..who are most dire in need of support....
For the long run...
_________________
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18 Nov 2013, 3:06 pm
So, essentially, you are saying that Autism Speaks is trying to stamp out autism long-term, at the cost of not fighting for the rights of autistic people in the present, and that this is the only approach that will actually help anyone?
Unless we decide to euthanize anyone who is injured, disabled, or elderly, there will always be people with disabilities. Autism is only part of a larger picture. Unless we fight for the rights of disabled people, unless we create a world in which autistic people, and people with other disabilities, can live as equals, we are always going to have the sort of suffering that comes with being autistic in a non-autistic world.
Curing autism would just mean fewer autistic people. It wouldn't change the problem that Autism Speaks is perpetuating--that of disabled people being seen as a pitiful waste of life.
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18 Nov 2013, 3:24 pm
Callista wrote:
So, essentially, you are saying that Autism Speaks is trying to stamp out autism long-term, at the cost of not fighting for the rights of autistic people in the present, and that this is the only approach that will actually help anyone?
Unless we decide to euthanize anyone who is injured, disabled, or elderly, there will always be people with disabilities. Autism is only part of a larger picture. Unless we fight for the rights of disabled people, unless we create a world in which autistic people, and people with other disabilities, can live as equals, we are always going to have the sort of suffering that comes with being autistic in a non-autistic world.
Curing autism would just mean fewer autistic people. It wouldn't change the problem that Autism Speaks is perpetuating--that of disabled people being seen as a pitiful waste of life.
Unless we decide to euthanize anyone who is injured, disabled, or elderly, there will always be people with disabilities. Autism is only part of a larger picture. Unless we fight for the rights of disabled people, unless we create a world in which autistic people, and people with other disabilities, can live as equals, we are always going to have the sort of suffering that comes with being autistic in a non-autistic world.
Curing autism would just mean fewer autistic people. It wouldn't change the problem that Autism Speaks is perpetuating--that of disabled people being seen as a pitiful waste of life.
No it would not be possible for me to say that at all for correct effect..even if I wanted to...or for that matter even if Autism Speaks wanted to..as science simply has no real answer as to what autism even is..
Per total biological effect..or affect..
And likely never will..as it started out as an abstract concept..and is more broadly defined and described than ever now...
It is simply ludicrous..in my own opinion..to suggest that someone can eradicate an abstract concept..where real flesh and blood humans lie...
Or what I would more commonly describe as common sense...
My friend...
An attribute I was also low on until a few decades into life......
In general ..the current definition of Autism..could apply to almost any introverted person..who was under the duress of chronic stress for a substantial amount of time...
The fact that it would have to present itself in childhood..is the only real difference per total effect..and affect...
Autism isn't going away anymore than the ability for the APA to invent another abstract construct of reciprocal social communication ability challenges....
And yeah...they will likely continue to do that..as the profits continue to roll in..on new editions of 'the book'..the next versions of the DSM..
That is...
The real potential of autism speaks to actually help people with the disorder lies within the realm of funding research into the many challenges of co-morbid..genetic disorders..health problems..and other issues..
currently understood by science.. as such.. associated with Autism..
That is the main focus of research all along..so far..and they are making strides toward actual remediation of some of these difficulties...per the research they fund..NOW...
And again..nah..that's not helping you and I or likely anyone in this discussion..but those real live human beings that are impacted as such through suffering from those co-morbid disorders..
as I would hope you understand ..are every bit..as important as the folks in this discussion that may not be impacted by those specific co-morbid conditions...per the research of Autism Speaks that is currently funded....
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18 Nov 2013, 5:36 pm
Off on a tangent:
I can't really do Algebra. Show me a basic Algebra problem, I'll show you a blank stare. Yet somehow in 7th grade I passed the Algebra 1 High School Assessment with a near perfect score.
...and then I passed Algebra 2...
...and then I passed GT Geometry...
...and then I passed Honors Trig...
...and then I passed Honors College Algebra...
...and now I'm in AP Stat...
I can't do good math. I don't know how I keep passing by the skin of my neck?
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Age: 54
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18 Nov 2013, 7:01 pm
Callista wrote:
Oh, yes, her tactics are effective; I'm not doubting that. They're effective for getting money and spreading her brand of bigoted "awareness". But they're not effective for doing anything useful for autistics, whether they're autistics posting on WP with highly-literate arguments, autistics using a few words to make simple requests, or autistics who don't do language to begin with.
The power of emotional appeals is undeniable. But it doesn't have to be done the way she's doing it.
Consider this sort of advertisement, raising money for research to help autistic children learn:
The power of emotional appeals is undeniable. But it doesn't have to be done the way she's doing it.
Consider this sort of advertisement, raising money for research to help autistic children learn:
Quote:
Scene: In the middle of a dance club, lights flashing, a class of students is trying to learn algebra. The teacher's words are drowned out by the pounding music. Someone spills a drink onto your textbook. A desk is toppled by a drunken partygoer. Zoom in on one of the students, who is covering his ears with his hands and looking miserable.
Voiceover: "Could you learn in a place like this?"
Scene: a young child in the middle of a special ed classroom, lights bright and chaos all around. The child is covering his ears, rocking. The sensory qualities remind you of the dance club, in miniature.
Voiceover: "Many autistic children have to try."
Scene: A child in a neat, quiet environment, working one-on-one with a patient teacher, hesitantly pointing to a picture card. Discovering that he's gotten it, the child looks up, grinning and flapping his hands in excitement.
Voiceover: "Help create a world where every child can learn."
Onscreen: Autism Speaks. Donate Today.
Voiceover: "Could you learn in a place like this?"
Scene: a young child in the middle of a special ed classroom, lights bright and chaos all around. The child is covering his ears, rocking. The sensory qualities remind you of the dance club, in miniature.
Voiceover: "Many autistic children have to try."
Scene: A child in a neat, quiet environment, working one-on-one with a patient teacher, hesitantly pointing to a picture card. Discovering that he's gotten it, the child looks up, grinning and flapping his hands in excitement.
Voiceover: "Help create a world where every child can learn."
Onscreen: Autism Speaks. Donate Today.
Do you mind me quoting on other forums with giving credit to Callista and mentioning I got it off wrongplanet? It gets a point I'm wanting to make across way better than I'd be able to make.
(I absolutely LOVE this example for emotional appeal that is positive, and that matches needs well.)
18 Nov 2013, 7:09 pm
You can link directly to the post on the forum page (it's the tiny image of a note)
Tuttle wrote:
Callista wrote:
Oh, yes, her tactics are effective; I'm not doubting that. They're effective for getting money and spreading her brand of bigoted "awareness". But they're not effective for doing anything useful for autistics, whether they're autistics posting on WP with highly-literate arguments, autistics using a few words to make simple requests, or autistics who don't do language to begin with.
The power of emotional appeals is undeniable. But it doesn't have to be done the way she's doing it.
Consider this sort of advertisement, raising money for research to help autistic children learn:
The power of emotional appeals is undeniable. But it doesn't have to be done the way she's doing it.
Consider this sort of advertisement, raising money for research to help autistic children learn:
Quote:
Scene: In the middle of a dance club, lights flashing, a class of students is trying to learn algebra. The teacher's words are drowned out by the pounding music. Someone spills a drink onto your textbook. A desk is toppled by a drunken partygoer. Zoom in on one of the students, who is covering his ears with his hands and looking miserable.
Voiceover: "Could you learn in a place like this?"
Scene: a young child in the middle of a special ed classroom, lights bright and chaos all around. The child is covering his ears, rocking. The sensory qualities remind you of the dance club, in miniature.
Voiceover: "Many autistic children have to try."
Scene: A child in a neat, quiet environment, working one-on-one with a patient teacher, hesitantly pointing to a picture card. Discovering that he's gotten it, the child looks up, grinning and flapping his hands in excitement.
Voiceover: "Help create a world where every child can learn."
Onscreen: Autism Speaks. Donate Today.
Voiceover: "Could you learn in a place like this?"
Scene: a young child in the middle of a special ed classroom, lights bright and chaos all around. The child is covering his ears, rocking. The sensory qualities remind you of the dance club, in miniature.
Voiceover: "Many autistic children have to try."
Scene: A child in a neat, quiet environment, working one-on-one with a patient teacher, hesitantly pointing to a picture card. Discovering that he's gotten it, the child looks up, grinning and flapping his hands in excitement.
Voiceover: "Help create a world where every child can learn."
Onscreen: Autism Speaks. Donate Today.
Do you mind me quoting on other forums with giving credit to Callista and mentioning I got it off wrongplanet? It gets a point I'm wanting to make across way better than I'd be able to make.
(I absolutely LOVE this example for emotional appeal that is positive, and that matches needs well.)
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18 Nov 2013, 7:51 pm
Asperger96 wrote:
Off on a tangent:
I can't really do Algebra. Show me a basic Algebra problem, I'll show you a blank stare. Yet somehow in 7th grade I passed the Algebra 1 High School Assessment with a near perfect score.
...and then I passed Algebra 2...
...and then I passed GT Geometry...
...and then I passed Honors Trig...
...and then I passed Honors College Algebra...
...and now I'm in AP Stat...
I can't do good math. I don't know how I keep passing by the skin of my neck?
I can't really do Algebra. Show me a basic Algebra problem, I'll show you a blank stare. Yet somehow in 7th grade I passed the Algebra 1 High School Assessment with a near perfect score.
...and then I passed Algebra 2...
...and then I passed GT Geometry...
...and then I passed Honors Trig...
...and then I passed Honors College Algebra...
...and now I'm in AP Stat...
I can't do good math. I don't know how I keep passing by the skin of my neck?
That's not too unusual and something that happens at times with individuals with symptoms of non-verbal learning disorder..diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome...
Some of these individuals have problems with numbers but can do the higher abstract math..
My sister is diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome and her issue is one of numbers also but she also could not do the Algebra..Geometry..etc..
But she excelled in all learning associated with the English Language...
She has the symptoms of Non-verbal learning disorder..whereas i have the symptoms of hyperlexia..and numbers and decoding all types of symbols are definitely my thing..
And another likely issue associated with my unique use of the English Language..as I can see an entire universe in just one letter or number...
Per the details of the symbolic nature..of the design of each...
But I would rather connected with people with my eyes..and the general experience of emotional contagion..now that I have it again..
I almost lost all of my emotions for about five years..associated with all the different disabilities..I had..most particularly Alexithymia...
The emotional issues of Asperger's..including difficultly with Cognitive empathy are suggested to be some of the most difficult issues associated with Asperger's...
To properly connect with other human social animals..truly.. can eventually make the difference between life or death among individuals with Asperger's syndrome...
But it can be a much slower and insidious process exacerbated by social stress...
Autism Speaks is looking at the more visible issues..such as health issues..self injury..and what can be more likely observed as behavioral deficits...
The Suffering inherent of emotional issues..is not at all visible..at times..and that in itself can make it a catch 22 situation in many ways for those individuals that suffer from emotional imbalances...
To really get help..
I did not have any idea if I would ever get my emotions back..as I lost them before earlier in life..and they did eventually come back then..but it took about 10 months..
NOT FIVE YEARS...
People like Tony Atwood are the experts that focus on this extremely challenging aspect of Asperger's syndrome...
Autism Speaks is basically lost on it..
And that in itself could warrant John Elder Robison's exit into an area that can really help people that have these type of serious difficulties with emotional connection with others..
As he uses a novel method of gaining an ability to connected emotionality with others..with the trans-cranial magnetic therapy..which does seem to potentially have promising results..with emotional connectivity issues..
But again..I use free verse poetry..and music..once i could use my ear and eye again..after the disability of atypical trigeminal neuralgia...
To regain my emotions..
Thank GOD it worked ...as living without emotions more than any of the other 17 diagnosed disorders..i was diagnosed with to be classified as permanently disabled...was truly living death to me...
I would not wish that on anyone..not even Adolph Hitler..although he might have suffered from that himself..for all I know..
And if so..in a way i can understand why he did what he did..potentially just looking to feel something..
Not unlike a serial killer perhaps....
But the bottom line..is..Autism.. the abstract construct.. is a huge umbrella that fits many associated sub-disorders underneath that umbrella..
So yeah..when they say you've met one autistic person you've only met one..that has a good line of empirical evidence behind it..
And a person diagnosed with the symptoms of hyperlexia with a visual way of thinking..experiences the world likely as another Universe compared to a more verbally thinking person with the symptoms of non-verbal learning disorder..
And yeah..that's just one example..there are scores more documented in peer reviewed research....
But thanks for sharing that..this is how we become enlightened about how complex the spectrum really is on a personal level..
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18 Nov 2013, 8:42 pm
"Tiny note"? Where's that?
I know it's this link--
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5755306 ... t=#5755306
but I got that from looking up the posts on my own profile.
and yes, Tuttle, you can link to stuff; it's pretty public as it is, having been posted on WP and all 
Edit: Oh, I get it now. It's the little icon in the title bar of each individual post. Like with this one, it's the icon that's just to the left of "Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject:".
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Verdandi
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Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
18 Nov 2013, 9:01 pm
Callista wrote:
"Tiny note"? Where's that?
I know it's this link--
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5755306 ... t=#5755306
but I got that from looking up the posts on my own profile.
and yes, Tuttle, you can link to stuff; it's pretty public as it is, having been posted on WP and all
Edit: Oh, I get it now. It's the little icon in the title bar of each individual post. Like with this one, it's the icon that's just to the left of "Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject:".
I know it's this link--
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5755306 ... t=#5755306
but I got that from looking up the posts on my own profile.
and yes, Tuttle, you can link to stuff; it's pretty public as it is, having been posted on WP and all
Edit: Oh, I get it now. It's the little icon in the title bar of each individual post. Like with this one, it's the icon that's just to the left of "Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject:".
I've been here three years without figuring that out.
Very handy to know, though.
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