"I resign my roles at Autism Speaks" John Robison

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Verdandi wrote (on page 13):

Quoted by me from the above article:

Quote:

The Gish Gallop, named after creationist Duane Gish, is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood in real time. The term was coined by Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education. Sam Harris describes the technique as "starting 10 fires in 10 minutes."

The formal debating term for this is spreading.[1][2] It arose as a way to throw as much rubbish into five minutes as possible. In response, some debate judges now limit number of arguments as well as time. However, in places where debating judges aren't there to call BS on the practice (like the Internet) such techniques are remarkably common.

Verdandi, to me it seems that you are the one who is doing this, though I agree Aghogday did flood this thread with a lot of material, most of it to me very brilliant, but the way he was presenting cannot really be fitted into the category of a debate. To me that is your own black and white thinking that is trying to do this, but a debate format is too black and white to handle this kind ethical topic which involves more sophisticated sorting and grading, so imo it your own this or that kind of thinking which is stimulating the response you are getting, as there is no way to respond in such a way that some kind of learning of something new can occur accept to establish a different kind of framework from which to look at the entire material, so to create a generative field, and this is what you are referring to as the gish gallop ratio in this case. Of course part of the discussion would have to be about what kind of field or framework is or is not generative, as this is what it seems to me you are objecting to, as it does not fit into your own black and white thinking, and this is not to discount that sometimes immediate action is not the best way to respond, but not always.. Actually to me it is pretty fascinating. What I love about you even though I consider your approach to be rabble rousing is the wonderful contrast you present, as you are looking at material in a factual manner, which gives a certain force that can be harnessed very easily by the 'opposite' side. Of course the opposite side is not necessarily opposite,except in your own mind, but the way you are presenting material exaggerates the affect in a way which cuts out the potential; for comprehensive understanding, so this leads to the gish-gallop effect, as generated by yourself, but generative may not be the right word as it is reactionary rather than creative. At least this is my opinion.

(From Mirriam-Webster:

ab·ble–rous·er
noun \ˈra-bəl-ˌrau̇-zər\

: a person who makes a group of people angry, excited, or violent (such as by giving speeches) especially in order to achieve a political or social goal.)

I actually love your messages, as you make it much easier to present certain concepts, and I do appreciate your altruistic motivation. It must be very frustrating for you to encounter people like Aghogday and myself raining on your parade when you want so much to help other people, and I am genuinely sorry to distress you, but we went to help other people, too.

[quote="Asperger96"]Off on a tangent:

I can't really do Algebra. Show me a basic Algebra problem, I'll show you a blank stare. Yet somehow in 7th grade I passed the Algebra 1 High School Assessment with a near perfect score.
...and then I passed Algebra 2...
...and then I passed GT Geometry...
...and then I passed Honors Trig...
...and then I passed Honors College Algebra...
...and now I'm in AP Stat...

I can't do good math. I don't know how I keep passing by the skin of my neck?[/quote

Good on you! [ I love this young man. Don't y'all just love this young man?]

I was thinking we need a few more "rabble rousers" around here. When Verdandi posts, she is articulate, passionate, and she knows how to keep it simple and short. When she posts, she is is concise and to the point. [ without the reader wading through page after page, only to finally understand something that could have been conveyed in a short paragraph.]

There is much to learn to learn from our "rabble rousers." Verdandi, rabble your heart out!

Vicky, two different contexts are being presented on this thread. Are you trying to say that catching onto algebra is like learning to ride a bicycle? If so, I agree, but learning algebra is not the same as learning biology, and geometry is not the same as algebra and learning to drive a car ius not the same as learning to ride a bike.

Or are you just saying that to love this young man will solve the problem of great human suffering, so no conversation is really necessary right now and to give an anecdote is enough? If so, then though I appreciate your altruistic motivation, to me this would be skipping a lot of steps and shoving stuff under the rug in order to hide it, so in this sense it could even contribute to human suffering.

Affection is not enough, imo, nor is black and white thinking. There may be a way to combine these two that is generative, but active thinking would be a part of that. Active thinking is not exactly the same as black and white logic, though logic is surely a component.

Sometimes, what people need to hear is "Yee-haw! You're the bomb," or the equivalent. Sometimes, the best approach is to support each other in a simple way. This incredible young man, like most autists, needs to hear how fantastic he is to counter the human tragedy crap exploited by Autism Speaks.

Oh, and I do possess affection for this young man. And to insinuate that my comments could lead to human suffering, whoa, definitely a negative brand of "rabble rousing."

Yeah, he's pretty awesome. He can do stuff with math that I cannot. That's great. And we can operate in multiple contexts. Praising Asperger96 for doing something that is genuinely difficult for many people, acknowledging other needs.

I think that there are things that do contribute to human suffering. For example, fostering an environment in which disabled people are expected to disdain and avoid accommodation even though such accommodation could make them significantly more effective at their jobs. Or in general fostering an environment in which disability is something to be avoided or denied or characterized in negative ways. Or fostering an environment in which some autistic people are deemed too incapable of participating in a discussion that involves them.

A multimillion dollar charity being involved in promoting extremely negative views of autism that directly impact autistic people contributes to human suffering. Which is why so many people here dislike it. Not because of a party line, not because online communities need external enemies (they don't), not because people just don't know enough about the organization to come to a clear decision.

Oh thanks!

Well unfortunately life IS..and in that IS..people discriminate against the disabled..particularly when the disability is invisible..

My autism is not severe disability by itself at all..I adapted to that..but what I could not adapt to in anyway is the chronic unrelenting pain of atypical trigeminal neuralgia...

There was simply no escape and no answer...

That answer had to come on it's own when the pain finally left me several months ago..

But there were other disabilities.. over 17 of them that I had to address the best I could one at a time...

Some how or another I have accommodated all of those too..by extreme out of the box thinking...

But the bottom line is it worked and I AM a full human being again in real life..as it no longer physically hurts to connect to other people in real life...

That ability to connect to anyone in real life..and maintain a reciprocal communication with a complete stranger is simply priceless to me..in comparison to the repression of emotions and painthat did not allow me to do it in the past...

But here is the other thing..I have two other very severe disabilities that are structural and are not going away..

One of them is a congenitally fused vertebrae in the t6 that at middle age has led to severe arthritis in my spine and stenosis of the neural canals in my spine...

The other is a severely congenitally deviated septum that makes extremely little airflow for me to breathe..I just breathed through my mouth all my life..I didn't realize substantial airflow could happen through my nose..until the ENT who read the CAT scan of my sinuses asked me how I could breathe..several years ago....

Well no doubt that has something to do with the dysautonomia..and sleep disorder I have..and with PTSD and severe anxiety several years ago..surgery was simply not an option..and I was advised it might not change anything about the trigeminal neuralgia..that in effect could have been associated with that as I also had chronic inflammation in the mucosa of my sinuses from being subject to at least 100 lit up cigarettes with second hand smoke in the close to two decades I worked for the military in a military bowling center...

So I made my own accommodation for those two issues..

Extreme exercise that I could not do again..as I did before in my life..until my stress response and brain healed from the damage of extreme hyper-vigilence and stress that led to the Autistic Burnout...

It took five years to get to the point I could do that again...

That accommodation is working well..but it takes and average of 10 miles a day..in walking through the stores where my wife shops..and other various areas in nature..at least half of that walking in reverse..to finally remove the pain and numbness of body parts associated with the severe arthritis..and stenosis of the neural canals in my neck..

But here is the point I am finally arriving at with disability..

Even though I am no longer a sickly looking individual..and am now 222Lbs of solid muscle casing my little bit of over 6 feet of height..and am an imposing figure..and the last thing anyone would look at as disability..other than what I do to accommodate my disability now out of the social norm..along with the sunglasses I still have to wear inside at night..or outside at night..to accommodate the lingering damage to the associated trigeminal nerve that is still affected to some degree overall..

The majority of the general public still makes fun of me and laughs when I do that accommodation that makes the difference of me being able to enjoy life..and the other one of complete suffering..and just sitting in my vehicle or behind a computer watching the rest of the world really enjoy life in the full three dimensional one in nature with real live flesh and blood human beings..to connect and feel emotions and touch with..through hugs..kind looks from the eyes..etc..etc..that is life to me..and being a complete shut in through physical disabilities..and problems with alexithymia..was simply hell to me ..in my own personal opinion..as autistic or not..I've always loved connecting to people in real life...whoever they are..and whatever differences..of physical or mental..or philosophies about life they may have...

I was born that way..that is all..with my arms outreached to whoever was human that was within my reach...

And am there once again...

Thank GOD or whatever IS IS...

But I have to be fierce to maintain my accommodation for my disabilities..and no one can do that but me..as I am the only one that can explain my accommodation to others..

So as an example after doing this accommodation..in Publix last night..a grocery store if that name does not ring a bell...

The manager came up to my wife while I was walking in reverse..that I always do at least 20 steps from anyone else even though I am very agile with it and can reverse my head enough along with my legs to view the distance in reverse for safety...so they will not be afraid I will fall or run into them..he said a couple of customers complained to him..and instead of approaching me as I passed him at least 15 times in the store that night...he told my wife that it made customers uncomfortable and she would have to notify me that I if did it anymore I would not be welcome in the store..

So after my wife told me this when leaving the store.. I marched right in to the managers office with a steely determined look on my face with eyes still covered with sunglasses..and asked the manager about it as at that point I did not know which manager in the store..conversed with my wife..

I started talking to him about the fact that it was an accommodation for an actual disability covered under the ADA..and he said oh no it wasn't me that said it..

But by a few minutes he admitted that it was him..and he told me a customer said I almost ran into them..which I knew that I did not..so I asked him to review the video..which he did not accommodate..but then he immediately said the store would accommodate me as long as I did not make the other customers uncomfortable...

Well that was the point that I asserted my right as a disabled citizen..and told him no if it just made them uncomfortable from seeing it from a distance that was not acceptable as this was my accommodation to walk without my legs going numb from the stenosis of the nerves in the neural canals in my back..so I told him we would review the video in the future if it ever happened again..I asserted this I did not ask..

And yes...all he could do is comply ..not because he wanted to ..but because that is the law..it was a reasonable accommodation...he would simply have to explain it to customers in the future..if they complained..that they would have to deal with the unusual nature of my accommodation for a disability covered under the ADA...

But here is the thing..how many people with disabilities are brave enough to stand up for their rights...

It does require the personal individual effort to make this happen at times..and yes..i am an imposing figure that people do take seriously when I take those sun glasses off and my eyes are piercing their souls...as I do not have any problem looking someone in the eye..now that..that pain is gone...

My issue is I do not look away..my stare is intense and focused on every word that is said..through reading lips and every movement of every muscle of their face to try to interpret nonverbal body language...

But not all people are fearless..so it is an extremely hard road for people with these type of invisible disabilities..who do not have it in them to speak up for themselves...

But this too.. is just human nature...

People are afraid of things that are different..this is understood through research..as an intrinsic quality that people have for survival..to either fight or flee a potential individual or predator..that might endanger their well being...

So I cannot reasonably fault anyone from seeing a 6FT 222LB with sunglasses male approaching them from a distance in reverse..from being uncomfortable...

But.. I can take the fearless effort to explain it to them..if they ask..or to anyone else required to keep the accommodation in place...

We can help people to advocate for themselves in this way..but trying to change things we seriously cannot change..as far as ignorant statements like the one that Suzanne Wright made are really a waste of time in my effort..as she is going to do whatever she wants..in her high position in life..it's her charity..she do what she wants..as long as it is legal..and expressing the wrong facts about a disability is not illegal..she was just incorrect that is all...

They do not make a dime from their philanthropic effort..so this is not about money for Suzanne Wright..or Bob Wright.....

All this attention given suzanne wright and autism speaks..is nonsensical to me in my own opinion..as I have the years..of experience in the real world in customer service and government to understand there is nothing any of us can do to change that situation...

Now I could be wrong..

But I doubt it...

Analyzing these situations is just one of my 'autistic superpowers' among many...

So smiles.. that is all..if you can see the larger picture here..my friend..as I hold no ill feelings for anyone who cannot fully understand my extremely complex method of reciprocal communication....

That is simply COGNITIVE empathy...TH@IS ALL...
A quality we can all improve through years of conscious and careful effort...

If we truly care about other human beings...

If not..that too..can be part of human nature..not all of us..are inherently compassionate and non judgmental in a personal way against others....and yes..US is everyone..I personally do not include myself in any subgroup except the human race....

And finally Verdandi..creating a common enemy to blame through rhetoric for common community identity is certainly nothing new...

It was identified by Aristotle some years ago as a common device in rhetoric...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epideictic



So in total effect this is an exercise for attention in singing to the choir per this reference..and my own personal opinion..which yes most definitely serves personal needs for attention..and a common enemy for a potential social bond online or offline but in real effect of change is fairly meaningless in the larger world..again in my own opinion...

And the FACT that Suzanne Wright still feels comfortable in completely ignoring everyone here..in her description of Autism more than anything proves that none of this rhetoric from the so called online Autism Community in the last decade.. has made any difference at all in the attitude of the folks at the top of that organization..ERgo..John Elder Robison's move..it was simple a waste of his time..in thinking he would 'affect' the actual attitude of the folks at the top...as they are free to do as they please......

They are influential...they are rich...and yes in the US this brings this ability and or privilege..for those with that influence and money...

Best ignored...totally ignored..in my opinion..

But yeah..a common bond of an enemy and attention and all of that..is the other contingency in the internet world reality..here...it is what it is..it's just an interesting sociological phenomenon to me..as I am a social sciences major anyway..per social sciences interdisciplinary..anthropology..and health science which is also most definitely an integral part of the whole human picture.....

And finally Vicky's effort in praising the young man..for achieving this with autism..is certainly great in my opinion..in effect and affect itself for this young man...

And I greatly appreciate when anyone goes through the steps to do this with anyone with a disability...as they are often shunned or just ignored for being different..no matter what they do..

But leave it to some people in the so called autistic community..and they will even turn that around and call it inspiration porn..and say it is patronizing to a person with a disability as they should be treated like anyone else..

Well yeah..adversity of all types most definitely disability.. is what can create the greatest achievements of life..from Abraham Lincoln to Franklin Roosevelt to John F. Kennedy..and yeah..notable ones..but millions more in total affect..and effect!

Adversity is what makes humans great!..and there is no inspiration that is too little or too great in effect and affect to make the human race in total affect and effect as influential as it is..

And yeah..not always a good thing..per the destruction of the environment and all of that....

But still.. human beings supporting each other..is why we are here.. disabled or not..in total affect and effect too..

It is as simple [email protected] friend....
A
GAIN
in my own opinion.....

A person resigned from a group called Autism Speaks,because this group was making generalizations about autistic people, and the rhetorical approach of this group was seen by the person who resigned (and I also and probably everyone here see it) as both demeaning and objectifying these autistic people rather than empowering them and honoring their individuality, and also their approach is not serving to benefit higher functioning autistic people or helping the public to understand them.

Imo his expectations that the organization should speak for all kinds of autistic people and also stop using such rhetoric were unrealistic,and he resigned because he realized this and also to make a statement. and he made a good statement worth paying attention to, and also honored his own inner truth in terms of honoring himself by resigning..

Basically the main problem as I saw it and still see it is about sorting and grading, which is a very interesting topic and I think the single most important topic in terms of helping any autistic people, especially the people on WP, so I was excited to offer my opinion and to be a part of this GROUP, which presumably is enquirig together, each person contributing his individual ideas, with the general aim of helping ourselves and each other to understand why he resigned and then to ultimately act consciously from this emerging new understanding in order to help ourselves, each other and all people suffering from autism and even humanity in general. .

Then someone brought up that Autism Speaks is supporting this other group that does this shock aversion therapy and posted a video which imo was off topic and had nothing to do with the actual subject of this thread. I can see why he stuck it in at that juncture, but after that the chance at learning anything new was deflected, and then one person here pivoted off at that juncture into rabble rousing (spurred on by a reaction to me, whose agenda she perceived is contrary to her own, though in actuality it is not). The rabble rousing was in this instance attempting to amplify the emotional reactions of others for no really good purpose, though I know to her it seemed like there was a purpose.

And the posting about the gish-gallp ratio was very interesting, as is a lot of what she writes as it does offer a possibility to help other people see things differently. If only she could actualize her own intellectual potential, she could be a very powerful person.

It is difficult to sort out this kind of thing, as it is obvious the more you call attention to something you consider to be an injustice and the more you ramp up other people's emotional responses, then, if seen from one angle, the more chance there might be to harness public opinion around stopping it., But if you can explain to even one person why this approach of jumping into a discussion (where the obvious problem relates back to sorting and grading) and then trying to divert that topic so as to grandstand off a personal agenda takes away the power of the group, which is the very power that if harnessed by intelligence would be able to achieve very great social results---If even one person understands this--it will change your brain on the spot, and this will effectively result in your being not only able to change your own life but it will begin to transform the lives of many people.

Last edited by littlebee on 22 Nov 2013, 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well..LIttle Bee it is obvious you have gained a great deal of insight in your years of life..that you make good use of now by sharing yOUr insights...

There is a wealth of sharing of information on this website with different minds that cannot be equaled anywhere else on the internet..in my travels there...

I would only hope this environment never turns in to the 'reddit' type of atmosphere in the future..as the moderation is good here..currently...overall to protect people from REAL bullying type actions...

As i stand back..I see a group of mavericks riding with their own opinions...

I learn so much from everyone no matter how much I may disagree with their overall points...

To truly understand Autism in my opinion..is simply to truly understand so much about human nature..if one explores the totality of Autism under the diagnostic Umbrella of what is currently described as Autism...

It is no wonder that this site..gets about 14 thousand views a day..compared to only several hundred people actually posting...

This site is simply intellectually and emotionally stimulating..and I do appreciate your insights so very much as you add a quality to this site that is often missing..

Looking at the trees and seeing the fuller tapestry of the forest....
That is always truly beautiful..
in
only my opinion..
A
GAIN...:)

Thanks...Aghogday....The reason why I needed to respond to Vicki's message I did not understand at the time, just intuited it was important to do so, but the day before yesterday I was weeding out about a hundred books from my collection and found this one book on group dynamics which I literally originally found in a free box but never read as it was too boring zzzzzz. For some reason I never threw it out and was going to yesterday but something told me not to. Anyway, I read some of it on the bus to work. There is this one part where he talked about the fight or flight mechanism and how it functions in group dynamics and basically a lot of groups function around this dynamic--either the group is harnessing its energy to fight something, or, better put in this case, to' fight' something:-) and then when the going gets rough they retreat into a flight (from the topic at hand (which is probably what is kind of conceived of as the work of the group). I am pretty dense, but I assumed that by flight he meant to stop talking (and I think in an internet group where people are not paying to get the psycho:-) therapy that those in his own groups were paying for, it could mean to actually stop talking), but I researched him on the internet today and what he actually meant by flight was to retreat into chit chat so as to deflect from the topic of the conversation, as it now occurs to me the math conversation was a good example of.

The posting of the video would probably not really be an example of this flight mechanism, imo, but an attempt to shift the actual topic of the group in a way that seemed relevant and meaningful to that person because an obvious opportunity arose to insert that information on a topic that was very meaningful to him. It was still a deflection from the original topic though.

Also, when I read some of that book it seemed to me that the fight mechanism could involve fighting to define the definition of the group according to what would be the intended aim of that group.

I think the very famous psycho analyst who wrote this book had some kind of understanding about how groups function, since this was his topic of special interest and he studied it for so many years, and I have already learned something from him in that he has given me a new perspective which takes me away from being so identified with my own limited perspective,. What is fascinating to me is how boring this book seemed to me all these years which is why I never read it, but now that I have a broader and at the same time a more specific context to place it in, how very interesting it is.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-stagl ... 37742.html

Beginning paragraph from The Crappy Life Of The Autism Mom

Suggested reading and then apply this back to understanding the discussion here and why there may need to be two different kinds of agendas for addressing two different kinds of autism...

https://www.google.com/#q=autism+feces+smearing

Yes while..Suzanne Wright may have ignored some of the Autistic realities of the people in this discussion..she is a Tiger mother..and refuses to ignore these other children...

She is passionate for that..and nah..I cannot blame her for that..watching my child every day suffer and eventually die from a co-morbid condition associated with Autism that Autism Speaks has funded research for to hope to insure that another child like mine does not meet a similar fate..

These ARE LIFE OR DEATH ..FUNDING ISSUES WITH THE GOVERNMENT..AND SUZANNE WRIGHT WILL USE HER WORDS AS WEAPONS TO HELP THESE CHILDREN...
TH@IS ALLONTH@

MY FRIEND..
THANKS FOR THE REALITY YOU RESEARCHED AND PRESENTED HERE2....
love comes in many flavors...

Nope that is completely wrong - the whole idea that there are two types of autism is totally inaccurate and misleading. You can't have two agenda's for two type of autism because there simply isn't just two types of autism! Just reading that small excerpt makes me unwilling to read anymore of her uninformed and highly blinkered rubbish.

It's called a spectrum because there is a continuous spread of autism levels and types. It's not just severe autism or just kids with a few quirky social deficits, there is a whole range of levels in-between with a whole range of differing problems. I know because I do volunteering work with autistic kids and adults and see every side of the equation on a regular basis. Each and every kid is different and has unique challenges, some severe, other less obvious. But they are all equally entitled to be treat with the same respect regardless of the perceived level of difficulties they possess.

Who here (and I'm addressing everyone not just selected individuals) has the right to decide which child with autism deserves more respect or sympathy than another. Who here has the right to tell a child that he is not worthy of help because their symptoms don't appear to be severe enough. Who here can say with 100% confidence that a child that is vocal and appears to function reasonably well is still not in danger of serious harm because of their condition.

My own son is not so severe that he requires 24/7 care, but he is by no means just a quirky kid either. He is very challenging, and definitely lacking in simple understanding of the way the world works, we have to keep him under close supervision outside the house in case he runs into traffic or some other dangerous situation (he has no sense of danger). And to top it all he also has fecal incontinence/impaction problems (a side effect of his autism) and has to wear incontinence pants.

But he is also able to enjoy some degree of independence within the boundaries we create for him, he is quite capable of dressing himself, and is competent enough to do things like play games etc on his iPad. He is also able to attend mainstream school for now (though he struggles and may need to be moved to a special school eventually).

It is this very attitude that if you don't have severe autism you are just a quirky kid that is so insulting to the rest of us. I have no objection to myself being classed as a bit quirky - because in many ways I am. But I won't allow anyone to belittle my son by undermining his condition just because they don't see it as being 'serious' enough!

The misunderstanding in this article makes me sad....neurodiversity is not about believing that autism is a personality type (as the author suggests in an un-quoted part of the article) -- it's about believing that disability (for better or worse) is a normal part of human existance. I think that most proponents of neurodiversity would agree that autism is a disability, that the degree of disability varies, that autistic people should be helped to develop skills, and that harmful behaviors should be addressed and managed.

Ironically, if you shift focus away from the fundamental area of disagreement (the "autism is a disease" framework), the author seems to share common ground with neurodiversity advocates. For example, in this bit here...



...substitute each mention of "recovery" with variations of the word "improve" like this....



...accepting your child's value as a person? Teaching them skills, helping them develop abilities and acknowledging all the while that outcomes are highly individual? Valuing your child's successes even if succes is not achieving normalcy? Putting resources into improving health, development and well being? Sounds a whole lot like what I hear proponenets of neurodiversity advocating for -- for all types of autism.



As grahamguitarman said, there are many kinds of autism -- not just two. I am also tired of seeing it assumed that abilities and autistic traits come in two pre-defined clusters where you're either a person with social deficits that don't prevent you from doing anything a non-disabled person can do, or a person severely disabled in all areas and unable to do anything of value -- it's nowhere near that black and white, even for those people the pre-defined clusters are based on.

The ability of autistic individuals and their families to have a good quality of life does not depend solely on the severity of the autism. It is not as simple as "mild=possible" "severe=not possible". Also, what about the people in-between -- where do people with "moderate" autism fit into such a black and white portrayal of autism severity and quality of life?

Please do not assume that anyone who disagrees with Autism Speaks doesn't understand the realities of severe disability. Ignorance is not the reason for my opinion.



I disagree with Suzanne Wright's statement because it was dehumanizing and deliberately, unnecessarily alarmist. I have no problem with someone portraying a picture of autism that includes severe self-harm, lack of awareness of danger, inability to speak, inability to feed or dress ones' self or use the toilet, fecal smearing, etc. etc.; What I have a problem with is someone using those factual things to make people afraid of autism, and saying that all those things make a person's life worthless or un-live-able (whether they are a caregiver or the autistic person).

Last edited by animalcrackers on 23 Nov 2013, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.