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Tequila
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13 Mar 2014, 3:43 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z38qqSZZEc[/youtube]

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I think we've turned into a society of craven cowards. I hope that doesn't offend.

Actually, I hope it does offend, quite a lot actually because, you see, I can still remember the shock of the Rushdie affair 25 years ago. The very idea that anybody could be killed for writing a book was surreal and horrific. Now we take it for granted that if you say the wrong thing about the religion of peace you'll get death threats and you might actually be killed, so you keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for you. All for the sake of tolerance and diversity, of course.

TV and newspapers routinely censor themselves now in a way that would have been unthinkable a few decades ago, not because they want to be 'sensitive', as they always claim, but because they're afraid of Muslim violence. Not only are they afraid of it, they're afraid even to admit they're afraid of it, in case it offends.

There was a good example of this here in Britain a few weeks ago when a pair of notorious Islamic grievance mongers whipped up a controversy out of nothing and tried to get parliamentary candidate Maajid Nawaz deselected because he tweeted a cartoon of Muhammad to say that as a Muslim, he didn't find it offensive. Not content with causing trouble for him here in Britain, these two human oil slicks also made sure that the story reached Pakistan where people get killed for such things and where Mr Nawaz has family and business. And the death threats duly arrived, as everyone knew they would.

BBC Newsnight and Channel 4 News were all over this story, and both took the extremist side while pretending to be neutral by refusing to show the cartoon, and thereby betrayed every decent secular Muslim in Britain, of whom Mr Nawaz is a prime example. They helped to make it even less likely that these small-minded Islamic bullies will ever be effectively challenged in their community. And let's be clear about why they did this. They did it out of fear. They did it because they were afraid that they and their families might be murdered. Welcome to multicultural Britain. Don't you love the diversity? And don't you feel enriched?

But if the media won't defend free speech then what exactly are the media for? And who will defend it? And who can? You know, I sympathise with any news editor in this predicament but if you run a national TV news programme you have a responsibility to stand up and be counted. It's more than just a job. You are the gatekeeper for our free speech and our free information. Your job is to report the truth with all the relevant information, accurately and fearlessly. And if you can't do that, or if you're too afraid to do it, then you shouldn't be in the job because you're not qualified for it, and you are inflicting real damage on our society through your cowardice, and the important position you hold. If you had an ounce of integrity you would stand aside now, find a nice safe little cubby hole where you can't be threatened, and hand that job to somebody with a spine who can do it properly, for all our sakes.

But the thing that really sticks in my mind, in my throat about this sorry affair even weeks later is not so much the slimeball opportunism (God knows we're used to that), or the death threats, or even the fact that the media caved in to an Islamic blasphemy law, but that there was so little public outrage over it. Nobody really expected them to show the cartoon, and if it happened again tomorrow we wouldn't expect them to either because we know that this is a violent religion, even though we're not allowed to say so, and we know that if they had shown it there would have been violence. And this is the way things are today here in Britain, and everywhere else in the so-called free world. Islam has only been a feature of our society for a couple of decades or so, and everything we think and say about it now is weighed against the possible threat of violence, even down to a simple drawing. That is a definition of terrorism. That is cultural terrorism, and we are pandering to it shamelessly and shamefully.

We patronise Muslims by holding them to a lower standard of behaviour. We treat them as if they're less civilised, and then we attack anyone who draws attention to this hypocrisy as a racist. We assume that Muslims can't be expected to control themselves if something annoys them, and if they become violent it will be our fault for provoking them. We assume there's going to be violence, and then we cleverly pre-empt it by caving into it before it happens, not because we're liberal or progressive, as we like to pretend, but because we're liars and hypocrites and cowards. We dress our cowardice up in fancy words like tolerance and respect, and then we applaud ourselves like seals for our enlightened values, but we all know what it really is because we can smell it now, it stinks so bad.

We're the first generation that has never had to defend its freedom, and it shows. We have no appreciation of where it comes from or what it cost. We can see very well that a vitally important principle is being eroded before our eyes and we're just too cowardly even to acknowledge our own complicity in that. We're like the townspeople in one of those western movies who are always cowering in fear of one bad guy. When you watch that movie you don't feel sympathy for those people because they don't deserve it. They're cowards, and so are we.

We've let ourselves be bullied into a destructive self-censorship that's killing free expression, the very life blood of our society, and we're making sure that our children and grandchildren, the ones we're supposed to love, will be born into a world significantly less free than the one we were born into. Don't you feel proud of yourself? They'll pay the price for our hypocrisy, dishonesty and cowardice. They'll find out the hard way that no truer words were ever spoken than: "You don't know what you've got till it's gone."



aghogday
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13 Mar 2014, 4:27 pm

Well..perhaps it is growing that way in the UK..for issues with immigration..but in the US..there is still a great deal of freedom of expression that is actually growing per the sexual freedom of creativity in videos like the one Miley Cyrus put out last year..accepted by main stream pop culture..but still looked at disgustingly by repressed..and oppressed citizens..

And i truly believe that FULL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION..IS WHAT WILL KEEP ANY NATION FREE FOR THE FUTURE...

CENSORSHIP..IS THE WAY OF THE NAZI REGIME FROM LAST CENTURY..PEOPLE will not accept that anymore..now that the information highway makes information free for all who are not censored...there are places to go where freedom of expression still fully rules....

But again..in some countries like Pakistan..even youtube videos are off limits..which are a great source of knowledge to allow folks to have generally speaking a better life through freedom of expression open to the general public to create in their own unique ways..and to share human energy with others to inspire or challenge herd mentality....


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Last edited by aghogday on 13 Mar 2014, 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

simon_says
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13 Mar 2014, 6:12 pm

Ive read the Koran. Heavy on the threats as I remember it. It could be retitled: Allah and the Lake of Fire: A love story.

The religions that make slightly more sense to me are the ones that try to explain suffering by suggesting that the classic god is evil. Bogomils, Cathars, Paulicans, Gnostics, Marcionites, and I'm sure there are others. These people are still crazy but at least they are paying attention.



aghogday
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13 Mar 2014, 6:24 pm

simon_says wrote:
Ive read the Koran. Heavy on the threats as I remember it. It could be retitled: Allah and the Lake of Fire: A love story.

The religions that make slightly more sense to me are the ones that try to explain suffering by suggesting that the classic god is evil. Bogomils, Cathars, Paulicans, Gnostics, Marcionites, and I'm sure there are others. These people are still crazy but at least they are paying attention.


Well.. crazy is thrown around rather loosely these days..

Generally speaking per Einstein crazy really is doing the same dam thing over and over again..and expecting a different result...

The truly sane folks in life..do not follow the paths of others..theY forge their own paths..regardless of the promised consequences of the brain washing herd....who live for control of others for materialistic gains..through fear and subjugation of freedoms like reproductive freedoms..that are the core source i believe of the tension between the west and middle east...

Sexual freedom is a core powerful source of basic human freedom...

Set folks free to have sex or not have sex with who they want and they are powered at the core basic level of social animal instinct..and much harder to control..by others..for the gain of others..instead simply living and FULLY EXPRESSING the social human animal basic instinct for empathic connection..and sharing..for group survival.

Society does not reflect TRUE anthropologically sound human nature..and likely never will..as much of technology per today is antithetical to TRUE anthropologically sound human animal nature..per what we ARE evolved AS and FOR.....

The gnostic gospel of Thomas rings sound truth..as it supports the balance of positive and negative..dark and light..and the basic easily observed forces of social animal nature....for anyone who pays any attention..to core reality of REAL SOCIAL HUMAN ANIMALS....

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm


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Stannis
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13 Mar 2014, 8:46 pm

In my opinion, inviting so many anti secularists into your country that they are able to de-secularise your government is so obviously a catastrophically bad idea, that you have to wonder if there is some hidden malevolence at play.

Or, perhaps someone figures that a high muslim population will effectively end the political viability of British Imperialism :wink: .



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13 Mar 2014, 9:43 pm

Been a while since I've listened to one of his rants.
Thanks for posting.


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13 Mar 2014, 9:49 pm

There is no right not to be offended and people need to stop acting like there is. Being offended is something YOU do. This sentence "We assume that Muslims can't be expected to control themselves if something annoys them, and if they become violent it will be our fault for provoking them." is so strange to me. If people rage because they are offended that is their fault, not the fault of whatever "offensive" cartoon. The UK needs to stop this extreme political correctness. Giving up free speech just to keep the peace doesn't work at all. A few years ago they rejected Geert Wilders at the border (and thereby giving him even more media attention than he would have gotten otherwise), afraid for what he was going to say.



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13 Mar 2014, 10:00 pm

aghogday wrote:
Well..perhaps it is growing that way in the UK..for issues with immigration..but in the US..there is still a great deal of freedom of expression that is actually growing per the sexual freedom of creativity in videos like the one Miley Cyrus put out last year..accepted by main stream pop culture..but still looked at disgustingly by repressed..and oppressed citizens..

And i truly believe that FULL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION..IS WHAT WILL KEEP ANY NATION FREE FOR THE FUTURE...

CENSORSHIP..IS THE WAY OF THE NAZI REGIME FROM LAST CENTURY..PEOPLE will not accept that anymore..now that the information highway makes information free for all who are not censored...there are places to go where freedom of expression still fully rules....

But again..in some countries like Pakistan..even youtube videos are off limits..which are a great source of knowledge to allow folks to have generally speaking a better life through freedom of expression open to the general public to create in their own unique ways..and to share human energy with others to inspire or challenge herd mentality....


I don't look at Miley Cyrus with disgust for the reasons you suggest. I am tired of people with no musical talent using sexuality and shock to grab public attention. So many young people of her generation, so desperate for wealth and fame that they will do anything to get people to look at them. Yes, I am old, and yes, I believe that human dignity left the building 20 years ago on planet earth.



aghogday
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13 Mar 2014, 11:18 pm

khaoz wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Well..perhaps it is growing that way in the UK..for issues with immigration..but in the US..there is still a great deal of freedom of expression that is actually growing per the sexual freedom of creativity in videos like the one Miley Cyrus put out last year..accepted by main stream pop culture..but still looked at disgustingly by repressed..and oppressed citizens..

And i truly believe that FULL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION..IS WHAT WILL KEEP ANY NATION FREE FOR THE FUTURE...

CENSORSHIP..IS THE WAY OF THE NAZI REGIME FROM LAST CENTURY..PEOPLE will not accept that anymore..now that the information highway makes information free for all who are not censored...there are places to go where freedom of expression still fully rules....

But again..in some countries like Pakistan..even youtube videos are off limits..which are a great source of knowledge to allow folks to have generally speaking a better life through freedom of expression open to the general public to create in their own unique ways..and to share human energy with others to inspire or challenge herd mentality....


I don't look at Miley Cyrus with disgust for the reasons you suggest. I am tired of people with no musical talent using sexuality and shock to grab public attention. So many young people of her generation, so desperate for wealth and fame that they will do anything to get people to look at them. Yes, I am old, and yes, I believe that human dignity left the building 20 years ago on planet earth.


In my opinion while i lived the cultural illusion and believed that human sexuality fully expressed was an anti-GOD way to be..my undertanding now is that it actually takes away human dignity.. in not fully expressing one's basic or ampified human sensuality and or sexuality depending on the difference among human beings in their will to do as they want as long as no harm comes to others by intention...

Miley has a beautiful body so she shared it with the world.. some people love it.. some people do not..but the key is no one who doesn't want to watch can reasonably be required to not turn the tv or youtube channel if they do not like it..

I see no reduced dignity in Miley's accomplishment in taking care of what i consider as her full temple of GoD in metaphor.. or direct reality for what she is as a social animal human...

Animals parade their assets..for the mating ritual to grab the best assets to assure surivability..no reason to suggest in my mind that they are any less dignified than Miley or any other human being that decides that the human body expressed freely.. minimally ..or to the extreme is anything but natural human freedom...

It is none of my business what Carly does within the letter of the law..all i can say is ya go girl..not many people have enough respect for their body theses days to even move as they are naturally evolved for almost every waking hour of every waking day...

Miley is a role model..for a healthy body..exercised as naturally meant to be....vs..someone sitting behind a computer never getting up enough to respect the gift of health they are given...

All thing in life are relative...with pro and cons..In my opinion Miley IS far away in the pros....interesting to me as much as folks here have been made fun of in life..that Miley would be disrespected for simply expressing her full human being...

But that is not directed as you personally..i read a thread here..where the folks here showed disgust about her open artistry of her nude human being....i personally see that kind of backwoods red state cultural oppresion where i live..surprised to see so much adversity to freedom of human sensuality and sexuality here..all i can really see is jealousy at the core of that disgust...

If people had her talent and her beautiful body.. they too..might make full artistry expresson of it..and the human nude is one of the greatest historical expressions of works in art...from the beginining of human recorded histoy...

In respect of that full scenario..Miley is a role model..for Human being freedom...for a new age of less repression..and each person's ability and opportunity to pursue their own true will under sacred love in life...


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Last edited by aghogday on 14 Mar 2014, 9:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

Tequila
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14 Mar 2014, 2:43 am

aghogday wrote:
Well..perhaps it is growing that way in the UK..for issues with immigration.


Our problem is not totally a problem with immigration, although immigration does play a significant part in our problem.

Our problem in Western Europe is down to the massive funding of Saudi-style Salafi (and, in Britain, Deobandi/Tablighi) Islamic revivalist fundamentalism and the nasty homophobic, misogynistic, antisemitic, literalist bigotry that this engenders. It's well-funded, and has a stranglehold on a majority of our mosques.

Basically, because of overseas funding (and other substantial clout) Islamists are quite powerful here in Britain and many other European countries. Most Muslims tend to side more with reactionary, conservative Islam than current Western liberal values and this shows.

Just look at how small (and how despised) the likes of Quilliam are here in Britain by the mainstream Muslim community. Maajid Nawaz is a hate figure to many. In fact, most Muslims who claim 'moderateness' are not very moderate at all. You hear them on the TV condemning terrorist attacks in a mealy-mouthed way but then won't condemn death to apostates or the verse about not taking Christians and Jews as friends, and they'll duck the questions over whether Aisha was nine when Muhammad raped-- I'm sorry, had sex with her.

Islamic literalism is the problem here, and it's Islamic literalism that has been holding them back for so long.

aghogday wrote:
but in the US..there is still a great deal of freedom of expression that is actually growing per the sexual freedom of creativity in videos like the one Miley Cyrus put out last year..accepted by main stream pop culture..but still looked at disgustingly by repressed..and oppressed citizens.


It's dying on its arse here.

aghogday wrote:
And i truly believe that FULL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION..IS WHAT WILL KEEP ANY NATION FREE FOR THE FUTURE...


Stories on Islam are routinely censored. We have the entire saga of the Muslim rape gangs that was covered up by the police and the authorities for 25 years. See here (http://lawandfreedomfoundation.org/2014 ... ing-gangs/)

aghogday wrote:
CENSORSHIP..IS THE WAY OF THE NAZI REGIME FROM LAST CENTURY..PEOPLE will not accept that anymore..now that the information highway makes information free for all who are not censored...there are places to go where freedom of expression still fully rules....


Not if the people providing that information can be bullied, or threatened, or their websites hacked or DDOS'd.

aghogday wrote:
But again..in some countries like Pakistan..even youtube videos are off limits..which are a great source of knowledge to allow folks to have generally speaking a better life through freedom of expression open to the general public to create in their own unique ways..and to share human energy with others to inspire or challenge herd mentality....


Most of our immigrants come from the ultraconservative tribal regions of Pakistan and Bangladesh. And the fundamentalist Islam of their home countries has followed them. (The original Pakistani immigrants to the UK wanted to escape that religious fanaticism, but it has followed them.)

Stannis wrote:
Or, perhaps someone figures that a high muslim population will effectively end the political viability of British Imperialism ;)


By replacing it with the Islamic imperialism of Britain? ;)

You know, it always makes me laugh when Muslims claim that Islam is anti-imperialist. It is a deeply imperialist political religion and has been right from its very outset. It didn't claim North Africa and much of the Indian subcontinent easily.

Stannis wrote:
In my opinion, inviting so many anti secularists into your country that they are able to de-secularise your government is so obviously a catastrophically bad idea


There are two problems here at work. We have far too many white non-Muslims in positions of authority cravenly kowtowing to the Islamists and that support them. In our society, that is the real problem. Anti-Western Islamists are seen to be the politically correct trump card, and all other minority groups can be discarded. So, for example, the rights of gays to associate freely can be swept aside, or the rights of secular and free speech societies to utilise their own free speech can be thrown under the bus to appease student Islamic societies (that have a record of producing actual terrorists). Women can be forcibly segregated, cartoons like the one Condell mentioned can be censored by news networks - thereby throwing genuine secularist liberals like Nawaz under the bus.

trollcatman wrote:
A few years ago they rejected Geert Wilders at the border (and thereby giving him even more media attention than he would have gotten otherwise), afraid for what he was going to say.


They also denied entry to Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller last year whilst at the same time letting in an immeasurably worse Salafist Saudi Arabia scholar called Muhammad Al-Arifi, who has been widely upbraided for his sectarianism towards Shia Muslims. Or any of the other hundreds of hate preachers from the Gulf states and Pakistan that they have allowed in. (Oh, and they allowed Gabor Vona, the leader of Hungary's neo-fascist Jobbik party into the country at around the same time.)



Stannis
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14 Mar 2014, 4:50 am

Did anyone see this movie? I thought it was very good.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqJTHDbhhfk[/youtube]



Last edited by Stannis on 14 Mar 2014, 7:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

ArrantPariah
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14 Mar 2014, 6:22 am

Pat didn't hold up a picture of the cartoon. He must be scared, too.



Tequila
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14 Mar 2014, 6:30 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Pat didn't hold up a picture of the cartoon. He must be scared, too.


He should have done that.

Image



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14 Mar 2014, 8:37 am

Its amazing how when it comes to Islam, the right wing discovers a sudden passion for women's and gay rights but never holds its own religious or political interest groups to the same standard.

Pat Condell and those like him can take their sanctimony and stuff it up their fundiment.


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14 Mar 2014, 8:46 am

Yes, if people decide, that behaving like a dick should not be supported, the reason clearly must be, that they are afraid to do so. So if anyone has not spitted on some granny today: Stop being such a coward and get yourself some balls!



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14 Mar 2014, 9:10 am

That angry, elderly white man sure has a lot of words to say that became entirely predictable after the first two sentences.