Women Misogynists

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This topic in particular inspired me to ask this question: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt254466.html

I've seen it in plenty of women where, it seems that taking on the 'traits' of a man makes them somehow look superior to other women. Some women think that telling people off (or rather - other women) is the way to look tougher, or like a "man". Like being different to other women and more a 'man' somehow makes them better people. Or they tell other women to put up with the way things are. And that for some reason, women pointing out something that is unequal should be dismissed, and it's just seen as complaining or making a fuss over nothing (by other women), and that they should just "toughen up and get on with it".


Examples:

1) You get women (done this in the past myself) who say they get along better with men because "Men are more straightforward than women, and women are bitchy".

- Firstly, I've seen plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise that men are NOT straightforward. They lie no more or less than the average woman. You get plenty of manipulative men - workmen for example who take advantage of people, and men who'll say anything to get laid.

- As for bitchiness, yes you get that, as you get aggressiveness in men. Both bitchiness and aggression are forms of anger. Notice with both though how, most men and women are fine, yet the bitchy women get pointed out. Why is this though? Is it because it's the stereotype, or is it because *a few* women don't how to negotiate without putting people down? I think it's both.

2) Women should get jobs just like men? Right - but those women out there who say women should be able to work AND do childcare at the same time? This "right" to work would then surely give them less choice. I remember a thread on here a while back with this woman achieving a great figure and working and childrearing all at the same time, and she said that other women should be able to do it too, as if she were having a go at other women and labelling them selfish or lazy if they weren't able to overwork themselfs like Hell, and as if working or childrearing individually wasn't already enough of a strain.

From those examples, it seems women looking down on other women makes them feel superior. In other words, it's bullying, and kicking themselves in the foot at the same time. I think what also drives this is the need (whether by nuture or nature) for women to be similar while men are 'needed' to be individual.

What can be done about this? And if you want to add more examples, please feel free. Personally I believe men and women should both be raised to co-operate and how to release their individuality, and taught how to use constructive criticism. Maybe that's too simplistic though.

Many women I've met simply seem to be competitive in nature. Even their friendships are heavily tinged with outdoing the other in some respects.
As for "toughening up and accepting the status quo", I see this as an outdated mindset that serves little purpose. You hear the same arguments about sexism and racism, and many with this mindset seem to not have the personal experience with either--so therefore it doesn't exist. There is a balance between perceived injustice vs actual though. I don't think the answer is to bend so far the other way that every statement must be monitored by the PC police in case it might offend somebody. I guess it really has to be a case by case basis, really.

I haven't read "Lean In", but it has resparked a lot of discussion about how women should be able to do it all. The options should be open, but the expectations need to be more realistic. If someone can pull off work, home, kids, fitness, diet, and all while juggling knives at the same time more power to them.

No good answers, except not to be too weighed down by societal expectations. I do believe society continues to head in a good direction through time. I don't believe we should take the route of Sweden, and try to abolish gender recognition in the interest of fairness. Men and women are different.

I look forward to reading other responses on this one.

[Moved from Autism Politics, Activism, and Media Representation to PPR]

That is true. Why do they feel the need to judge in the first place though? They feel inferior.



How do you mean that they don't have the personal experience? I find with those women who say to toughen up that they've usually had to deal with a lot themselves, and they make themselves feel better by saying if they should do it that way, then everyone else should.



Don't you think their attitudes mean taking a step back though? Especially if those women are in power.



Agreed that expectations need to be more realistic. You're talking as if the ability to juggle all those things is a good thing - why should that person have to juggle them in the first place?



The only answer I can come up with to that one is that I think they're mostly different due to nuture - but that is another topic.



Me too.

I just read a blurb about that recently, and it's true but I'd have to look up the details. It reminds me of someone I know who rants and raves about people on welfare, because she managed without. What she fails to mention was that she has no dependents, and her parents have bailed her out financially well into her thirties. Just a case in point.



I don't understand, can you elaborate?


It has to be juggled out of necessity in many cases. You always hear the phrase "it takes a village", but that ideology takes a backseat to everyone handling their own( rugged individualism in action).

I think that this post would be more appropriate in the Women's Discussion forum.

I think it is because what women do is generally not taken as seriously as men's issues. For example, if men get into a fight, people take it seriously; if women get into a fight, it's just a "chick fight" and is seen as trifling and amusing. So, while men's anger or anger from women that is sufficiently "manly" is taken seriously, the "bitchyness," being seen as particularly "womanly," is singled out.


My hypothesis is that people do this unconsciously because they are not inclined to questioning on a large scale, questioning culture. Most every culture we come into contact with – whether society-wide or organizational culture – is largely or even completely set up by men, and so will tend to reflect the way men do things. Not questioning the origin of the culture, people take it for granted, see it as neutral, "just the way things are" rather than reflective of men's interests. Without viewing culture as reflective of men's interests, someone who sees that men seem to be better at conforming to, navigating in, or comfortable with the culture (and that includes getting their way without having to "nag" or sue) will assume that it's just a coincidence, and women therefore have no excuse to lag behind men, and just need a kick in the pants to perform better. I assume that is what people like this think they are providing; a kick in the pants. They don't view their message as "be like men because men are better," but instead think they are saying, "conform; men just happen to be conforming better than you, so follow their example." Besides the general desireability of conformity, women who promote ideas that benefit men receive praise and respect they would not otherwise receive.

The other reason is a simple lack of nuance. People have absorbed (or pretend to promote) a version of the feminist doctrine of sexual equality, but apply it rigidly, expecting men and women to do the same things without taking differing circumstances into account, like the work+childcare example you mentioned. And of course, the things that any given person are expected to do, employment or otherwise, are culturally-dictated, so the difference in circumstances is likely to be amplified in relation to what it would be if culture was not male-biased.


I don't see any simple, practical way to fix this. It would take a willingness on the part of the guilty party to change their thinking, which is difficult to effect by an outsider in general, but is complicated in this case by the change in thinking being associated with "feminist propaganda" or a "victim mentality." Thus the change would be resisted for the same reason it is necessary.

I wanted mens' opinions as well, and I wanted it to gain attention from everyone.



That is true, and something I hate. I remember the huge difference at school when a girl would lash out and throw things, and then the boys who did the same. The girls were viewed as "psychos" and teachers would be shocked, and when the boys threw things and got angry, the teachers would be like, "OK, all is well, let's forget about it."



You say that the culture is better adapted to men. This is true. However, what I'm saying is that women support that kind of culture. They either actively encourage things to remain the same, or they (mostly) ignore them, unless a minority group fights against it, out of like you say, conformity. I agree that people see things as neutral or just the way things are. I think people don't have the energy to stand up for their rights a lot of the time, and people don't want to fight because it makes things too complicated for them.



I think people are black and white thinkers in general in terms of that sort of thing, I think because it involves a lot of pressure, emotional involvement and pride at the same time. I have tried explaining it to other women before and they just don't get it. I think as you mentioned before, it involves deeper questioning which a lot of people seem unable to do. But surely one would recognise that work + childcare <> work on its own?!

Martial arts training has changed a lot of my attitudes about femininity. I was astonished the first time I ever saw one of my sempai - a kickass woman who took no s**t from anyone - come into the dojo in a skirt before class. I had internalized, based on my parents' example, the idea that 'being feminine' meant 'being weak.' The example of my seniors at the dojo made me a lot more comfortable with 'girly' things like skirts, makeup, and painting my fingernails and toenails.
The other thing I learned there is that some of the new men just won't take you seriously until you hit them in the face a couple of times. Up to that point, they assume that you're just there to pick up a man.

Wrt. women who 'get along better with men,' one of the women I heard say that once was a kohai at the dojo who was very pretty and had naturally enormous boobs. The men flocked around her like flies to honey, and she was nice (and naive) enough that she thought that they just liked her as a person. She later quit the dojo in a huff and wrote a long, insulting letter to our Sensei saying that he treated women badly (mainly because he treated her like just another student, rather than participating in the fawning) and that her female sempai had been 'brainwashed' by him into thinking that we were treated well. It did not go over well. The women in the dojo ended up more mad at her than the men (including Sensei), though the rant was mostly directed at him.

You remind me of Sandra Bullock in Miss Congeniality

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEBLrCGhTVM[/youtube]

She also snorts, just like you.

I did enjoy that movie.

Even women cant stand women at times!

[quote="smudge"
2) Women should get jobs just like men? Right - but those women out there who say women should be able to work AND do childcare at the same time? This "right" to work would then surely give them less choice. I remember a thread on here a while back with this woman achieving a great figure and working and childrearing all at the same time, and she said that other women should be able to do it too, as if she were having a go at other women and labelling them selfish or lazy if they weren't able to overwork themselfs like Hell, and as if working or childrearing individually wasn't already enough of a strain.[/quote]

I think you view that whole issues wrong. Its not about giving woman the possibility to combine work and kids. Kids normally have two parents. The task we have is giving FAMILIES the possibility to earn money AND take care of their kids in a propper way. There are as well male people in needs of a job, that allows them to combine it with childcare. So its not about "male-jobs" or "woman-jobs", but about "parent-jobs" for people that need the possibility to care for their kids as well.

When it comes to that, you simply add stuff yourself. Yes, I can get better along with men. Not because of them being bitchy, but simply because many of my interests are more common to men, so its easier for me to find a topic to talk about. As well that many men are a bit more straightforward, that does not make woman bitchy, but does make it easier to communciate with them, as someone that is socially disabled and often unable to recognize instinctive social clues.

Only because someone can go better along with men, that does not involve into the message, that women were bitchy. Thats something you have added into that sentence.

I find women to be far more interesting than men.

However, I would have probably fallen into the category of female misogynist in the past, because I could never identify with my own gender.

I love your response, it made me laugh! The poor lady, how embarrassing it must be for her if she ever discovers it.

So how differently did the men in class treat you after you hit them a couple of times? Did any other men around you change their behaviour at all?

One thing I have noticed about some women is that if they are married,and you are not,they see you as a potential rival for their husbands or partners attention.Notice I said some,not all.
The only female friend I had dropped me because I think she had some weird idea I liked her husband.I thought of him as a friend,nothing more.I don't try and steal people's partners.If someone thinks I'd do something like that,then I'm better off losing them as a friend.

So Chris Rock was right after all?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaOUnwfD1dQ[/youtube]