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xenon13
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27 Feb 2014, 10:13 pm

The US choice, Yatsenyuk, announced his government with the words "Welcome to Hell". He then claimed that he was planning to do very nasty, unpopular things, but it is not his fault, it is Yanukovich's fault, because, he claims, he just found out that Yanukovich stole $37 billion without anyone noticing it until this very moment! This is all so typical, this happened with Milosevic when someone from the new regime proclaimed; "No one will be happy with our government", and they said that Milosevic stole large amounts of money "forcing" them to do IMF structural adjustment. This turned out of course to be false...

What makes this more disturbing is handing the justice system to the Nazis. This is driving an extremely hawkish policy towards the pro-Russians. The Nazi running the state prosecutor office keeps threatening people in Crimea and the east with punishments... and he will need to send troops to back it up.

The recent incident at the Crimean airport shows how dangerous this has become and all because of this interference and placing Nazis into power.



LKL
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27 Feb 2014, 10:21 pm

"Nazis"? Really?
please provide some support for that assertion, Mr. Godwin.



xenon13
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27 Feb 2014, 11:25 pm

The Svoboda Party is a Nazi party, really... this is not particularly controversial. A Svoboda person was made prosecutor-general. Ukrainian nationalists were known for collaborating with the German Nazis and even operated the gas chambers in the Aktion Reinhardt death camps. For some reason many Ukrainian nationalists seem to be proud of this past... it reminds me a bit of the Croatians. They said, our only recent experiences as an "independent" state was as a Nazi state and why we must pay tribute to that regime!



91
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28 Feb 2014, 12:51 am

LKL wrote:
"Nazis"? Really?
please provide some support for that assertion, Mr. Godwin.


Although Xenon13 is clearly conspiratorial in his mindset (and his pro-Russia position is quite frankly ridiculous) but there are fascists amongst the protestors.


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28 Feb 2014, 2:10 am

Oh, sure. 'Fascist' is a much broader term than 'Nazi,' though.



AngelRho
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28 Feb 2014, 6:23 am

91 wrote:
LKL wrote:
"Nazis"? Really?
please provide some support for that assertion, Mr. Godwin.


Although Xenon13 is clearly conspiratorial in his mindset (and his pro-Russia position is quite frankly ridiculous) but there are fascists amongst the protestors.

I'm wondering if Xenon13 is an avid listener of Michael Savage. I find his radio show entertaining and somewhat informative, but his position, while not necessarily pro-Russian, is certainly anti-Ukrainian. The situation does have the potential to turn into another Egypt, i.e. a very vocal minority seizes the opportunity and takes over the nation against the will of the people. But on the other hand, Ukraine is NOT Egypt when you look at the culture and politics. I tend to think the fascist element might be getting some attention in the media, but I sincerely doubt they have enough influence to make any kind of lasting mark. I'm more worried about something like that happening in the US than in the Ukraine.

So…how about this new PM they have now? I don't think I ever heard of the guy.



LKL
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28 Feb 2014, 6:28 am

AfaIk the average Ukranian is fairly well-educated and used to representative government; it's hard to imagine that the population as a whole would allow fascists to take over.



AngelRho
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28 Feb 2014, 7:13 am

LKL wrote:
AfaIk the average Ukranian is fairly well-educated and used to representative government; it's hard to imagine that the population as a whole would allow fascists to take over.

I was thinking kinda the same thing. But that doesn't mean votes can't be rigged as has been demonstrated in Ukraine's recent past. It's conceivable, although I hope unlikely, that fascists could capitalize on the present chaos they're experiencing and cheat the system. I truly hope you're right.



91
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28 Feb 2014, 7:43 am

LKL wrote:
AfaIk the average Ukranian is fairly well-educated and used to representative government; it's hard to imagine that the population as a whole would allow fascists to take over.


It's doubtful they will... a kleptocracy maybe, there are functionaries on both sides who would take everything which isn't nailed down. The more time I spend in countries like that the more I wonder what the hell all this empire nonsense is about.


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AngelRho
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28 Feb 2014, 8:58 am

91 wrote:
LKL wrote:
AfaIk the average Ukranian is fairly well-educated and used to representative government; it's hard to imagine that the population as a whole would allow fascists to take over.


It's doubtful they will... a kleptocracy maybe, there are functionaries on both sides who would take everything which isn't nailed down. The more time I spend in countries like that the more I wonder what the hell all this empire nonsense is about.

What nonsense exactly? Russia has a history of ruling over a wide geography and demographic, with varying degrees of sovereignty at various times. Soviet authority was just another way of unifying people, just a different means of control. And they opportunistically expanded their sphere of influence after WWII. Even if it's incorrect to assume as much, the Ukrainian people have good reason to be suspicious of Russia. Holodomor, anyone? "Hunger Games" isn't merely a work of fiction. ;)

Or were you referring to something else?



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28 Feb 2014, 9:17 am

AngelRho wrote:
91 wrote:
LKL wrote:
AfaIk the average Ukranian is fairly well-educated and used to representative government; it's hard to imagine that the population as a whole would allow fascists to take over.


It's doubtful they will... a kleptocracy maybe, there are functionaries on both sides who would take everything which isn't nailed down. The more time I spend in countries like that the more I wonder what the hell all this empire nonsense is about.

What nonsense exactly? Russia has a history of ruling over a wide geography and demographic, with varying degrees of sovereignty at various times. Soviet authority was just another way of unifying people, just a different means of control. And they opportunistically expanded their sphere of influence after WWII. Even if it's incorrect to assume as much, the Ukrainian people have good reason to be suspicious of Russia. Holodomor, anyone? "Hunger Games" isn't merely a work of fiction. ;)

Or were you referring to something else?


You are correct, Russia has always been a great power, they have been trying the same strategy for the better part of 1000 years and now they are economically dwarfed on both sides and have a smaller population than Bangladesh. They can't play empire seriously anymore, all they can really do is kick up a fuss and cause problems. I have no idea what sort of a person would want to be the ruler of an empire like that, it all just seems a quite ridiculous pantomime. Sort of like how the deposed houses of France still take legal action over one another's claim to legitimacy.

"It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world ... but for Wales?" - A Man for All Seasons

And on the subject of the Hunger Games, I cannot watch that series anymore. A friend of mine gave a copy to a North Korean who joked 'sort of like Pyongyang inst it?'.... It kind of is... Breaks my heart.


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AngelRho
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28 Feb 2014, 11:10 am

91 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
91 wrote:
LKL wrote:
AfaIk the average Ukranian is fairly well-educated and used to representative government; it's hard to imagine that the population as a whole would allow fascists to take over.


It's doubtful they will... a kleptocracy maybe, there are functionaries on both sides who would take everything which isn't nailed down. The more time I spend in countries like that the more I wonder what the hell all this empire nonsense is about.

What nonsense exactly? Russia has a history of ruling over a wide geography and demographic, with varying degrees of sovereignty at various times. Soviet authority was just another way of unifying people, just a different means of control. And they opportunistically expanded their sphere of influence after WWII. Even if it's incorrect to assume as much, the Ukrainian people have good reason to be suspicious of Russia. Holodomor, anyone? "Hunger Games" isn't merely a work of fiction. ;)

Or were you referring to something else?


You are correct, Russia has always been a great power, they have been trying the same strategy for the better part of 1000 years and now they are economically dwarfed on both sides and have a smaller population than Bangladesh. They can't play empire seriously anymore, all they can really do is kick up a fuss and cause problems. I have no idea what sort of a person would want to be the ruler of an empire like that, it all just seems a quite ridiculous pantomime. Sort of like how the deposed houses of France still take legal action over one another's claim to legitimacy.

"It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world ... but for Wales?" - A Man for All Seasons

And on the subject of the Hunger Games, I cannot watch that series anymore. A friend of mine gave a copy to a North Korean who joked 'sort of like Pyongyang inst it?'.... It kind of is... Breaks my heart.

OK, I think I see what you mean.

I guess people just want what they feel rightfully belongs to them, especially when it comes to aristocratic power tied to bloodline. Anything that grants us power without us having to actually DO anything to either command it or earn it.

Which is why I think people like the "gas princess" DESERVE royalty. And I'd feel better "crowning" someone than I ever would deifying them.

Sorry about your "Hunger Games" sentiment. I think it teaches us powerful lessons and serves as strong commentary as to where we are culturally right now. I'm sure that's not the intent (it's a reenactment of ancient Greek tradition set in a postmodern, dystopian West), but the parallels are there, as you've well seen. I'm pretty much committed to watching the rest of it and getting/keeping the books long enough to pass along to my kids when they get old enough.

We no longer have the luxury of cable TV, but up until last year I eagerly anticipated "Game of Thrones" every week. I could have done without the gratuitous erotica, but otherwise LOVED that show. I have the first ebook, so I guess I'll have to start reading again. *sigh* I just have precious little time for fiction as of late. I mention GOT because of how much current political intrigue gets projected onto a quasi-medieval setting. The ruling family is way over its head in debt and the government is bankrupt. Maintaining power without a hired, private army is difficult at best, and the kingdom faces external threats as well. They're living in denial, doom is imminent, and the coming power grab/apocalypse can really take the story in pretty much any direction at this point. I think it's nearly impossible to have even a passing interest in politics, much less a career in it, and NOT pay attention to fantasy fiction works like HG (for the young folks) or GOT.



xenon13
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28 Feb 2014, 5:44 pm

Not only is the Prosecutor-General a Nazi, but the head of the Defence Council and his deputy, who controls the police, are also Nazis... it is notable that these facts are not widely mentioned in media...

There is an article in Forbes that describes the new prime minister as "Arsenic" for the country who will ruin it completely with brutal austerity!



AutisticGuy1981
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15 Apr 2014, 5:31 am

the west only care because Ukraine has gas.

like iraq , libya etc we will never get to see any benefit from it but I'm sure some companies somewhere will.



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15 Apr 2014, 2:09 pm

Today, the group that never faced the army when they protested the evil elected government in Kiev, who do not have the support of the army now, raised a Rights Sector National Guard of 12,000, down from 20,000 a few weeks ago, and likely 5,000 max now, invaded the protests in the east with tanks, and killed people.

The area in the east protesting are about a quarter of the population, over 10,000,000, with the backup of Russian troops, supplies, food, fuel, just across the border. They are also the most industrialized.

In general, keeping one fighter in the field takes nine in support, and that fighter spends half their time sleeping and eating. Of the nine or ten cities that have renounced Kiev, who are barricaded in, have check points on the roads, only one had Kiev forces try, and they were turned back. They have taken over one small airfield, and have a long long supply line back to Kiev, fuel, ammo, food, and soon, medical support.

From what has been seen, they did not bring cooks, mechanics, medics, just gunmen.

They are way over extended just getting there, do not have enough men to form a defense, much less take cities in urban warfare. Pictures of them show old men, fat men, and what looks like the content of jails.

The field before them is prepared with snipers, IEDs, and bottles of gas wait for them in every city.

The airstrip will become their prison, and their guards will not feed them.

There were many ways to invade the east, but once one was chosen, there are few paths to resupply food and fuel, ammo, and the roads are not safe. Resupply by air is expensive, and landing is well within range of a AK 47.

Toss in an RPG every few hours, no one gets any sleep, and stir for a week.

Tanks and APCs are much worse than SUVs, and without a lot of fuel, will be abandoned.

Forty men could isolate this "Army", and bleed it to death.