do autistics think in pictures? how do you think?

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devark
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18 Apr 2014, 8:20 am

patterns
words (monolog, di/trilogs)
associations/categories


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linatet
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18 Apr 2014, 8:21 am

Verdandi wrote:
linatet wrote:
you think in pictures like Temple Grandin stated and as decribed in my intoductory post?


No, not exactly like Temple Grandin. Texture, sound, smell, vision, even taste. Predominantly visual, though.

Like if I think of a horse I think of what the horse looks like, sounds like, smells like, and feels like. Lots of thoughts have flavor association

But how for instance do you ponder ideas or create things? I mean, not just thinking of concepts like a horse but leading to a consequence or flow or conclusion in your mind?
also how do you think your way of thinking impact in your life, or your autistic traits?

Quote:
Quote:
also based on your posts you actually seem to be very skilled on verbal arguments


I don't understand the relevance.

that's because you said when you think in words the thoughts fall apart, but I had noticed you are very skilled at building verbal arguments and following streams of thoughts. so I asked and then based on your answer I see it may be that you are more skilled at it when you are writing.



linatet
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18 Apr 2014, 8:24 am

devark wrote:
patterns
words (monolog, di/trilogs)
associations/categories

how do your trilogs work?



Aharon
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18 Apr 2014, 8:42 am

I'm a bit of a visual thinker but I wasn't raised that way, I seemed to develope it later in life to overcome memory and difficulty with abstract concepts, such as recall and math. When i go shopping and on the way home I have a thought that goes," did I buy asparagus?", I sometimes cannot intuitively recall if i did or not, and must surf my visual memory until I have the image of my hand picking up the asparagus.

As for math, I struggled with it for years because it was just a jumble of numbers to me, until much later in my adult life I discovered that if I saw them as symbols of a something tangible, I could, to a small degree, visualize them in my head and work with that as i scribble the equation, and that's when the "physics" of math made sense to me and was no longer a cryptic process used to solve number puzzles. I'm not sure if I'm describing that right, but I had to try.


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18 Apr 2014, 9:16 am

linatet wrote:
Verdandi wrote:

No, not exactly like Temple Grandin. Texture, sound, smell, vision, even taste. Predominantly visual, though.

Like if I think of a horse I think of what the horse looks like, sounds like, smells like, and feels like. Lots of thoughts have flavor association

But how for instance do you ponder ideas or create things? I mean, not just thinking of concepts like a horse but leading to a consequence or flow or conclusion in your mind?
also how do you think your way of thinking impact in your life, or your autistic traits?


Ideas I need a good representative image of the idea in order to understand it. More concrete ideas are very easy, more abstract ideas are extremely difficult. There are some things that I can think in images but I can barely put into words at all. Many topics which I had a certain understanding of, but couldn't explain until I saw someone else explain it and then I can use their words as a jumping off point.

An idea image might be how I understand evolution, which I perceive as kind of a constantly branching river. The river itself is full of things that alter conditions, or is acted upon by outside forces. It's not really going anywhere so much as going everywhere until it can go no further or can't branch.

As far as creating things, I've done professional writing work. The way I handle things is to visualize it and then try to put it into words. I'm not sure how to word that better, yet, but the translation usually works best in text, but I can do it verbally.

When I played roleplaying games, I was unable to understand that other people couldn't keep track of visual stuff in terms of spatial relationships like I could, and they'd really want me to use something physical to represent their characters, the terrain, etc. I actually came to understand this long after I stopped playing them.

Quote:
that's because you said when you think in words the thoughts fall apart, but I had noticed you are very skilled at building verbal arguments and following streams of thoughts. so I asked and then based on your answer I see it may be that you are more skilled at it when you are writing.


That makes sense.



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18 Apr 2014, 9:19 am

I think in terms of concepts and associations between concepts. I am what Temple Grandin would probably call a "pattern thinker".

Additionally I use both words and images/visual symbols as the "index mechanism" for retrieving and then visualising concepts and associations. The resulting mental picture looks very much like a 2 or 3 dimensional network of nodes and edges, quite similar to what people tend to draw on white boards when discussing or explaining a particular topic or problem.

On top of these visual pictures of networks there are emotions and non-visual sensations. These are much harder to describe. Emotions are not only felt in the brain, but also physically in other parts of the body, for example the literal "gut feeling". I tend to associate emotions and non-visual sensations with colours and images of specific situations I've experienced in the past. Whilst am not consciously aware of a particular colour coding of emotions, photographic images of specific situations can feel very concrete, and act as a backdrop for the visual network of nodes and edges that encodes my thoughts.

I am not convinced that autism is always characterised by a lack of theory of mind. In particular, the mental conceptual networks that I use can involve my perspective or can explicitly relate to what I imagine the perspective of another person is, or even a model of the perception of that other person of myself etc. This is straight forward mathematical recursion. It seems many people have significant difficulties with recursive reasoning, and I am not aware that NTs are in any way particularly good at using recursion. I am tempted to postulate the opposite.

This entertaining 10-minute video clip of a talk by Steven Pinker http://youtu.be/3-son3EJTrU does a good job of explaining recursive thought (towards the end). What I find interesting is that explicit language is the tool that leads to mutual knowledge, and allows unlimited recursive reasoning. In contrast, the guesswork needed to decode indirect language effectively throws a spanner in the works of recursion. So why should autists be challenged in terms of theory of mind? I think it is much more reasonable to assume that the autistic challenges related to understanding others are the result of sensory processing issues, and the inability to intuitively decode non-verbal language.

I am consciously making use of my conceptual mental models, by using white boards or corresponding electronic tools in my professional work in communication with colleagues and in meetings. Possibly the use of these visual aids not only works around limitations of verbal communication (reduced ambiguity), but also reduces the NT expectation for eye contact, and enhances my level of concentration.

I am not sure whether the often quoted three thinking styles postulated by Temple Grandin represent a comprehensive categorisation, and the boundaries between thinking styles may also be rather fuzzy. When speaking and writing, everyone has to translate thoughts into words. It is conceivable that for some thinking styles this translation into words and sentences requires much more mental gymnastics than for others.



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18 Apr 2014, 10:15 am

I use both ways but I guess pictures are my primary "language". I tend to translate the verbal income to pictures and translate my thoughts to words. For example when someone says - "Can you give me a pen, please." I get a pen picture in my mind, then the picture gets replaced with a picture of a place where my pen is, then I see a video of myself taking the pen from there and giving it to the person who asks. And I tend to say "What?" before I finish the translate operation - it takes some time and if I don't answer anything they tend to give me another question like "Are you listening?" that brings me another set of pictures - like picture of someone with hand near his ear in the "I can't hear you. Say it louder, please." pose - and it disturbs me since the pictures of pen and the man get on each other. It is better when they just repeat the "pen" question since the picture it brings will be the same. And when I see something in my mind I make imaginary voice comments/narration to it so I am able to tell someone else what is on my mind.
BTW. I like reading books - my mind makes a movie from every book I read. I don't see/hear the words. I see the situations/characters as images/video.



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18 Apr 2014, 10:48 am

I think I do all 3 (patterns, words, patterns/associations)

When writing or talking, I tend to think in words. When solving difficult problems, I tend to think in patterns/associations. When recollecting memories, I tend to scan my photo bank (which does include videos).

Some interesting notes.

- Sometimes I am talking or writing, I am unable to remember the word I was intending to use. As an example, the other day, I was trying to use the word “subtle” to describe something to my therapist. I said, “um, what is that word”. I know what I wanted to convey. I just couldn’t come up with the word. And, I couldn’t let it go. So, I scanned my photo bank, looking for associations to synonyms. About 5 seconds later, I said, “oh, Subtle. That’s right, subtle”. This could be an age thing. Sigh.

- My photo bank (which includes videos) doesn’t contain patterns/associations. As an example, I was visiting my daughter’s school last month. I remembered what her dorm looked like. I remembered what certain buildings looked like. But, for the life of me, I couldn’t remember how to get from one building to another. It must be the way my photo bank is organized.



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18 Apr 2014, 10:55 am

Every thing visual. I can make a movie in my head. If I have something mechanical, I take apart, I look at all the pieces, put it together in my head, and I have a working model. I can see things work, before they actually ever do. If I need to problem solve, I can take the different things in my head, and kind of put them in a family tree type looking thing, until I come up with the correct conclusion. I kind of get a kick out of people who have to use color charts, just to see what they want to paint a room, or house or whatever. Sometimes they paint, and end up not liking it. I'm not like that. I already painted it, and it is just the way I want it.



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18 Apr 2014, 12:18 pm

I mostly think in words, music and the sixth sense. The sixth sense is hard to explain, but it definitely plays a role in how my brain works. Usually the sixth sense goes along with verbal thoughts and has some extra meanings that are hard to translate into words.

It's not pattern thinking. It's kind of like fragmented information that feels whole, but undetailed. Those thoughts tend to be quite abstract, but hard to explain. Most of my thoughts are like that. The most "whole" thoughts I get are verbal and musical thoughts. When I express my thoughts I have to work at making them make sense to people. This takes quite a bit of work sometimes.

I took an IQ test and I did the best on the verbal portion of the test. I was also "a bit slow" at the visual tests. I was slow at them because I was trying to be accurate. When I was a kid I had some problems with language. I was more of a visual thinker when I was a kid. I can still kind if think in pictures, but they aren't very detailed.

This post was quite hard to write even though it made sense in my head.


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Mpregangel
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18 Apr 2014, 2:02 pm

I'm more of a pattern thinker. I relate thing into patterns easily. It's made me really good at card and board games. Also pretty good at Pokemon. I can predict peoples patterns and respond accordingly. I like patterns and rhythm in music as well and am about to study music so I can produce VOCALOID music. I also find it makes it easy to memorize recipes or game rules heheh. Sometimes I still don't understand quite how it manages to work.



devark
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18 Apr 2014, 4:05 pm

linatet wrote:
devark wrote:
patterns
words (monolog, di/trilogs)
associations/categories

how do your trilogs work?


It's like hearing two people debate, and you (the 3rd) can interject at any time. Feels almost like a meditation.


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18 Apr 2014, 4:31 pm

1½ year ago I heard Temple Grandin tell about how she could see an object, she wanted to make and create a kind of exploded drawing, where after only the measuring and the assembley had to be done.
I thought "Wauw! I´m doing that too", not as effortlessly as she does it, - but more or less the same.
As I think through a do-it-yourself project, parts take shape in my mind and come together. Sometimes I detect a problematic point in the construction, and I think through again until parts willingly assemble themselves.

Otherwise I think in pictures and sensory impressions.


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Last edited by Jensen on 19 Apr 2014, 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Apr 2014, 4:58 pm

linatet wrote:
That is why for instance if I am going back home, and I think "I have to buy milk", this is a thought that is restored in the "sack". Then I pick another one, for instance "how to apply strategic game theory to my book?" (for instance I read something about strategic game choice theory in the morning and stored the thought in the sack), then I think it over while I walk home. Then I get home and start having dinner and finish dinner and then the thought is finished. Then I go pick another one and see "I have to buy milk" and get like that: "Oh I forgot the milk!"


This seems really familiar to me. I am the same way, and it feels like I'm always forgetting to do something and don't remember it until some other (often inopportune) time. So if an important thought like that crosses my mind, I usually have to either do it right away, write it down so I won't forget, or tell my mom to remind me to do whatever it is later.

Anyway, my thoughts are mostly videos and auditory words together. I often imagine scenarios in my head to see different ways they may play out to try to prepare myself, and it also helps with my writing because I can play fictional scenes out in my head. So my thoughts are basically like a movie with narration.



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18 Apr 2014, 8:14 pm

Jensen wrote:
1½ year ago I heard Temple Grandin tell about how she could see an object, she wanted to make and create a kind of exploded drawing, where after only the measuring and the assembley had to be done.
I thought "Wauw! I´m doing that too", not as effortlessly as she does it, - but more or less the same.
As I think through a do-it-yourself project, parts take shape in my mind and come together. Sometime I detect a problematic point in the construction, and I think through again until parts willingly assemble themselves.

Otherwise I think in pictures and sensory impressions.

I can kind of do that to, but it's more like I "feel" the object rather than see it.


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18 Apr 2014, 8:33 pm

I think in words and song lyrics and melodic patterns. Whatever I am thinking about, a song will pop into my head that is related to it in some way.