State Affirmative Action bans ruled constitutional

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What is your response to the SCOTUS ruling?
FTW 38%  38%  [ 5 ]
Yea 23%  23%  [ 3 ]
Meh 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
Nay 15%  15%  [ 2 ]
WTF 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
TL;DR 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 13

GGPViper
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23 Apr 2014, 7:11 am

In Schuette vs BAMN, The Supreme Court of The United States of America (SCOTUS) recently ruled that state-wide Affirmative Action bans are constitutional in a 6-2 ruling.

The case before the court was the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative from 2006 which established that the "state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."

The SCOTUS opinion itself is a bloody mess:

- Kennedy (writing the plurality opinion), Roberts and Alito ruled that the Constitution does not give SCOTUS the power to set aside a State Affirmative Action ban. They did not rule on whether affirmative action was constitutional or not.

- Roberts concurred, and argued against Sotomayor's dissent.

- Scalia (writing concurring opinion) and Thomas concurred, but found that affirmative action was unconstitutional.

- Breyer concurred, but found that affirmative action was constitutional.

- Sotomayor (writing the dissent) and Ginsburg dissented, and found that a ban on affirmative action was unconstitutional.

- Elena Kagan recused herself from the ruling on conflict-of-interest grounds due to having dealt with the same issue in her previous position as Solicitor General.

Anyway, this ruling doesn't address (and could not address, as this was not the issue) whether Affirmative Action is constitutional or in violation of the 14th amendment.

It establishes that it is constitutional to ban Affirmative Action at the State level, but not if it is constitutional to have Affirmative Action at the State level.

For the matter to be ultimately decided, we need to wait for Fisher v. University of Texas to make it back to SCOTUS.

Anyway, Pew has some interesting illustrations to accompany the ruling:

Image
Image

Sources:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13 ... 2_j4ek.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_C ... ll_Results
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_v._ ... y_of_Texas
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... eady-have/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... on-campus/

Comments?



Last edited by GGPViper on 23 Apr 2014, 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
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23 Apr 2014, 9:30 am

Affirmative action is institutional racism, it has no place in the modern world. No one should be judged on the race, creed, gender, sexuality, etc. There should be one standard for everyone, how can you have "separate but equal" admission standards? Obviously nobody would think it is right to do it the other way around. I'm not sure it should even be legal to ask what race or gender or whatever on any application or census, isn't that how it is in France? Like I can understand using race as a physical description of somebody if you need that but why is it on almost every thing we fill out these days? They all say that they're "equal opportunity" and that it doesn't effect anything but it always bugs me when they ask. I'm an honest person but what if I lied and identified as Native American? It's not as if they can disprove it, most of these racial distinctions are how you personally identify and I wouldn't be surprised there was some in me considering how long my family has been in this country and where they've live amongst other things. I have as much case of the Senior Senator from Massachusetts I guess, I just have too much integrity to do something like that.

The fact is, there are more poor whites in this country than there are poor anybody else, how can you have a policy that pretty much openly discriminates against them? It's no wonder why the South votes the way it does. There is no universal white privilege, there is a class privilege between rich and the poor and the people that champion this white privilege crap are usually the most privileged of all. These PC hipster college Marxists are cancer to this country. How is it right that Obama's children would considered an oppressed minority and given preferential treatment over me?

No, I do not support affirmative action and I think anybody that does is a racist.



Raptor
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23 Apr 2014, 10:17 am

When you do anything for the sole purpose of increasing minority enrollment it's going to be at the expense of non-minority enrollment. To even imply that one race is owed something by another is ludicrous when those effected had nothing to do one way or another with transgressions (segregation, slavery, etc.) that took place generations ago.


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Don_Pedro_Zamacona
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23 Apr 2014, 1:09 pm

I personally favor affirmative action in employment, but oppose affirmative action in education(grade school and higher) entirely.

Academics are supposed to be based on actual merit. The world of employment on the other hand is NOT a meritocracy, never has been, and never will be. Most employers want experience and would rather lure someone away from their current job than give a job to an unemployed person(you know, "experience"). Actually getting a job that pays a living wage involves much more than meeting the listed qualifications, it involves networking and the ability to sell yourself. Blacks don't have the connections and Autists don't have either the connections nor the networking skills to get themselves hired with a small minority of exceptions.

No disrespect GGPViper, but if you think the free market is such a wonderful thing, why are you still living in a social welfare state like Denmark? Come on over to the USofA! It's the land of opportunity, right?



trollcatman
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23 Apr 2014, 3:41 pm

Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
No disrespect GGPViper, but if you think the free market is such a wonderful thing, why are you still living in a social welfare state like Denmark? Come on over to the USofA! It's the land of opportunity, right?


Here is a list of countries by economic freedom. Denmark is actually ranked higher than the US, if only by a little. The US is not really the most capitalist country, far from it. Wikipedia linky



ruveyn
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23 Apr 2014, 3:44 pm

Only the far left pinko stinko commie loving liberals on the court dissented. They do not believe in State's Rights.

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The_Walrus
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23 Apr 2014, 4:17 pm

The poll confused me.

I think AA harms those it attempts to help (by encouraging them to be the worst in their class rather than the best - outcomes are better for the best in the worst class than the worst in the best class), and also discriminates against minorities that are not protected.



Kurgan
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23 Apr 2014, 4:20 pm

AA promotes the idea that ethnic minorities are different from ethnic majorities. While I wouldn't call it racism (it reeks of white guilt, like the magical negro stereotype), a lot of black people are fed up with people who says that their achievements are entirely due to AA.


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AntDog
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23 Apr 2014, 4:54 pm

Affirmative action is an outdated racist policy, it has to go. In a time where race is too often used to divide people under the current presidential administration this is a step in the right direction.



Last edited by AntDog on 23 Apr 2014, 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
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23 Apr 2014, 7:19 pm

If AA is suppose to help the downtrodden, it should help everybody. Race doesn't totally define your life experiences, I feel like I have more in common with the poor blacks and hispanics that I've known than Obama's kids, we come from the same place and we went to the same schools so why is that they get a leg up at my expense? Why do white women regardless of class benefit from affirmative action when they're as a group the most privileged people in the history of the world?(IMO) It all seems very racist and divisive, there is an elite class in the country and I think they promote this racial and gendered prejudices to keep the people divided.



The_Walrus
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23 Apr 2014, 7:37 pm

Jacoby wrote:
If AA is suppose to help the downtrodden, it should help everybody. Race doesn't totally define your life experiences, I feel like I have more in common with the poor blacks and hispanics that I've known than Obama's kids, we come from the same place and we went to the same schools so why is that they get a leg up at my expense? Why do white women regardless of class benefit from affirmative action when they're as a group the most privileged people in the history of the world?(IMO) It all seems very racist and divisive, there is an elite class in the country and I think they promote this racial and gendered prejudices to keep the people divided.

I also agree with this.

Over here, some universities adjust for things like coming from a poor school, or being in care, or extreme poverty, or being the first generation of your family to attend university. Those things probably affect ethnic minorities more than white people, but they're more relevant than race itself. Blue Ivey Carter isn't going to need a leg up in life; a white kid from the inner city could really do with one.

(Though my comments above still apply - AA doesn't actually help people)



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23 Apr 2014, 7:59 pm

This is a huge win for racists.

Ignoring the history of oppression in the US from slavery through Jim Crow through redlining, and acting as though those policies haven't disadvantaged some groups relative to others crosses the line into insanity. Acting as though the groups who have had advantages as a result of the harm visited on other groups won't actively work to preserve their advantages shows a complete lack of understanding of human nature.

The biggest single determinant of a person's financial success is his parents' financial success, and the biggest determinant of the parent's financial success was their parents' financial success, and those people grew up under actively racist segregation. Like it or not, every white person in the US has benefited from racism. We all know stories of people who were born poor and became rich or the other way around, but those are the exceptions.

A ban on affirmative action equals a desire to perpetuate the injustices of the past for as long as possible.

The Economist (that liberal rag) wrote:
They find that none of these measures has changed much (see chart). In 1971 a child from the poorest fifth had an 8.4% chance of making it to the top quintile. For a child born in 1986 the odds were 9%. The study confirms previous findings that America’s social mobility is low compared with many European countries. (In Denmark, a poor child has twice as much chance of making it to the top quintile as in America.)
...
They find that the probability of a child born into the poorest fifth of the population in San Jose, California making it to the top is 12.9%, not much lower than in Denmark. In Charlotte, North Carolina it is 4.4%, far lower than anywhere else in the rich world.

link

And before you get all teary-eyed about those decnet odds for the kids of San Jose, think about what the 5th quintile actually means, as opposed to the "becoming rich" that you imagine. That's the 95th-100th percentile that you probably have in mind.



LoveNotHate
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23 Apr 2014, 10:00 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
This is a huge win for racists.

Ignoring the history of oppression in the US from slavery through Jim Crow through redlining, and acting as though those policies haven't disadvantaged some groups relative to others crosses the line into insanity. Acting as though the groups who have had advantages as a result of the harm visited on other groups won't actively work to preserve their advantages shows a complete lack of understanding of human nature.


It is well-documented, and not disputed that Asian people face the worst discrimination in U.S. college admissions. So, it is OK to discriminate against Asians because of "Jim Crow laws"? Republican candidate for governor Neel Kashkari is saying what you are arguing - that we should racially discriminate against Asians because they are overrepresented in California colleges. How is this not racism ?

Asian people make up 14% of California people, yet make up ...
52 percent of students at UC Irvine are Asian
50 percent at UC San Diego are Asian
43 percent at UC Berkeley are Asian
40 percent at UCLA are Asian
30 percent of UC students are Asian

source, http://www.smdailyjournal.com/articles/ ... 20981.html

California Senators tried to pass, Senate Constitutional Amendment 5. SCA-5, to reduce the number of Asian students based on racial discrimination. However, it failed to pass.
source, http://www.smdailyjournal.com/articles/ ... 20981.html

Also see ...

Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade wrote in his 2009 book, "No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life,'' that “to receive equal consideration by elite colleges, Asian Americans must outperform Whites by 140 points, Hispanics by 280 points, Blacks by 450 points in SAT (Total 1600)."
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... is-obvious

'There are too many Asians at Berkeley' bill," Republican candidate for governor Neel Kashkari told several hundred Cal students Wednesday.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_25625260/ ... ive-action



jrjones9933
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24 Apr 2014, 6:40 am

^Yeah, forget all that historical context.

I don't think that your figures distinguish between Asians and Asian-Americans, and I place absolutely no credence in the opinion articles and books you posted, unless and until I see that they are based on evidence.



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25 Apr 2014, 4:06 am

I think unless my net worth exceeds $50million, my opinion is irrelevant and not required.



DevKit
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25 Apr 2014, 5:21 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
This is a huge win for racists.

Ignoring the history of oppression in the US from slavery through Jim Crow through redlining, and acting as though those policies haven't disadvantaged some groups relative to others crosses the line into insanity. Acting as though the groups who have had advantages as a result of the harm visited on other groups won't actively work to preserve their advantages shows a complete lack of understanding of human nature.

The biggest single determinant of a person's financial success is his parents' financial success, and the biggest determinant of the parent's financial success was their parents' financial success, and those people grew up under actively racist segregation. Like it or not, every white person in the US has benefited from racism. We all know stories of people who were born poor and became rich or the other way around, but those are the exceptions.

A ban on affirmative action equals a desire to perpetuate the injustices of the past for as long as possible.

The Economist (that liberal rag) wrote:
They find that none of these measures has changed much (see chart). In 1971 a child from the poorest fifth had an 8.4% chance of making it to the top quintile. For a child born in 1986 the odds were 9%. The study confirms previous findings that America’s social mobility is low compared with many European countries. (In Denmark, a poor child has twice as much chance of making it to the top quintile as in America.)
...
They find that the probability of a child born into the poorest fifth of the population in San Jose, California making it to the top is 12.9%, not much lower than in Denmark. In Charlotte, North Carolina it is 4.4%, far lower than anywhere else in the rich world.

link

And before you get all teary-eyed about those decnet odds for the kids of San Jose, think about what the 5th quintile actually means, as opposed to the "becoming rich" that you imagine. That's the 95th-100th percentile that you probably have in mind.


Yes you just do that internet thing where you blanket dismiss the fact then make beyond absurdist statements like
Quote:
A ban on affirmative action equals a desire to perpetuate the injustices of the past for as long as possible.
You are delusional. But hey as long as were going to stay stuck in the past maybe we can kill all the white, black and mexican people in North America. Then we can give the land back to my people whos ancestors considered it to be sacred before either the whites or blacks even arrived. Because if we are really going to get right with the past the blacks have got to go along with the whites since they helped slaughter many native camps of women and children to. I mean right? If you really want to get serious about making up for something from a few hundred years ago there are people more deserving than the blacks if you really think about it.

Hitler said him self that he got the idea for concentration camps from the native american reservations. The legal language used when congress created the reservation DID in fact say that it was a way to concentrate the population. There were an estimated 60 million natives living here when the Brits came to town. Ge, where did they all go!?! ! But go ahead and keep acting like the white mans slaves had the worse lot in all of American history, since at least their entire race wasnt almost eradicated. The blacks were always at least worth keeping around as slaves, more than you could have ever said about the people I descend from.


The good thing about this ruling is that now the rest of states can fallow suit in getting rid of this crap racist law.