Atheism apologist Dawkins: Down Syndrome abortions are moral

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TallyMan
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25 Aug 2014, 12:27 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Kuribo64 stated that "it has to be said that the phrase 'atheism apologist' in the title seems like a sneaky and misrepresentative attack against atheists."


^ This. Your anti-atheist motives look clear enough to me.


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AspieUtah
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25 Aug 2014, 12:49 pm

TallyMan wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Kuribo64 stated that "it has to be said that the phrase 'atheism apologist' in the title seems like a sneaky and misrepresentative attack against atheists."

^ This. Your anti-atheist motives look clear enough to me.

My only motive was to describe Dawkins accurately. The OP-linked news report described him as an "[a]theist pontificator" which I considered too judgmental. I have already described why the description "apologist" is factual and accurate. He is variously described as "[k]nown for advocacy of atheism" according to Wikipedia which also describes him as "an outspoken atheist[,]" "a supporter of various atheist, secular, and humanistic organisations" and "identified with the rise of New Atheism[,]" and "suggests that atheists should be proud, not apologetic, stressing that atheism is evidence of a healthy, independent mind" while others have called his "advocacy of atheism [...] controversial."

Anyone who is described as such shouldn't wince when he and others join in with similar descriptions. Mine was respectful and tame compared to some of these examples. So, I am pleased that you see my two-word description of him as "anti-atheist[,]" but obviously I disagree.

Let's call our dissection of the semantics well and good, and leave the topic to return to its original objective to discuss his statement.


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Last edited by AspieUtah on 25 Aug 2014, 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TallyMan
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25 Aug 2014, 12:50 pm

(Thread moved from Bipolar, Tourettes, Schizophrenia, and other Psychological Conditions to PPR as the content is less about Down Syndrome and more about trying to score points against atheists.)


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babybird
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25 Aug 2014, 12:54 pm

I wondered when you was gonne move it. :P


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The_Walrus
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25 Aug 2014, 1:36 pm

"Husband of Lalla Ward argues in favour of abortion of DS foetuses"

Damn Time Lords.



GGPViper
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25 Aug 2014, 1:43 pm

*ahem*... I believe this is the most recent scientific review on the subject:

Choi, Riper & Thoyre (2012) wrote:
INTRODUCTION:Prenatal screening for Down syndrome (DS) is a routine part of prenatal care in many countries, and there is growing interest in the choices women make following a prenatal diagnosis of DS. This review describes what is known about actual and hypothetical decision making following a prenatal diagnosis of DS and adds understanding about the factors that influence women's decision making.

METHODS: A search of empirical studies was conducted through electronic databases, major journals, and reference lists that were published in English between January 1999 and September 2010. Inclusion criteria were that the research explored attitudes toward continuation of pregnancy or induced abortion for DS and included at least 1 variable that explored factors influencing women's decision making following a prenatal diagnosis of DS. Studies that did not specify DS, unpublished manuscripts, review articles, and book chapters were excluded.

RESULTS: A total of 11 studies were identified that met the inclusion criteria. The decision to undergo an induced abortion varied depending on whether participants were prospective parents recruited from the general population (23%-33% would terminate), pregnant women at increased risk for having a child with DS (46%-86% would terminate), or women who received a positive diagnosis of DS during the prenatal period (89%-97% terminated). Multiple factors influence women's decision making following a diagnosis of DS, including demographic factors such as religion, maternal age, gestational age, number of existing children, and history of induced abortion. Psychosocial factors including perceived parenting burden/reward, quality of life for a child with DS, attitudes toward and comfort with individuals with disabilities, and support from others also are important influences.

DISCUSSION: Multiple factors influence the decisions pregnant women make following the diagnosis of fetal DS. Therefore, it is critical that health care providers who work with pregnant women are aware of these factors.

Source:
Choi, H., Van Riper, M., & Thoyre, S. (2012). Decision making following a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome: an integrative review. Journal of Midwifery & Women?s Health, 57(2), 156-164.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22432488

In my native country of Denmark the abortion rate is even higher (around 99 percent), btw.
So, the widespread outrage over Dawkins' comments seems rather pointless... as the vast majority of people apparently agrees with him. :shrug:



kraftiekortie
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25 Aug 2014, 1:43 pm

Anything having to do with enforced abortion reeks of eugenics. Eugenics reeks badly.

I could understand the justification in a disorder like Tay-Sachs--where there's an extremely limited lifespan--but that's it.



TallyMan
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25 Aug 2014, 1:47 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Anything having to do with enforced abortion reeks of eugenics. Eugenics reeks badly.

I could understand the justification in a disorder like Tay-Sachs--where there's an extremely limited lifespan--but that's it.


You forgot to state whether you are an atheist or not. According to the OP that is important. :lol: By the way what shoe size are you and what pizza toppings do you like. They are also just as relevant to your opinion.


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starkid
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25 Aug 2014, 1:58 pm

GGPViper wrote:
So, the widespread outrage

What widespread outrage?

Quote:
over Dawkins' comments seems rather pointless... as the vast majority of people apparently agrees with him. :shrug:

Most people agree, so disagreement is pointless? That makes no sense. All sorts of situations started out with most people agreeing, and the minority of dissidents later changing minds. Even if they don't change others' minds, I don't see how it's pointless to have an opinion about something.

Also, the fact that these people decide to get these fetuses aborted does not necessarily imply that they agree with Dawkins that it is a moral thing to do (they may simply find it to be an expedient thing to do, for example), and it does not at all imply that they agree that it would be immoral not to do so. Furthermore, the explanation given in the Methods section suggests that the attitudes of women only were included , and we have no idea how many from what you've posted, so I don't see how you've concluded that the "vast majority" of people agree.



kraftiekortie
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25 Aug 2014, 2:13 pm

I'm agnostic/atheist.

I wear a size 7.5 (US) shoe.

My favorite pizza topping is pepperoni.



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25 Aug 2014, 2:21 pm

The girl who bussed dishes at the Starbucks near my old work had Down's. She was great - always a smile, did her job well. There are lots of less-than-bright people with bad attitudes who are a lot harder to deal with.

(I'm not normally a Starbucks patron, but that's mostly because they over-roast. Their health coverage has always been pretty good, even for part-time workers, and they make a point of hiring people like this young woman.)



Last edited by NobodyKnows on 25 Aug 2014, 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

LoveNotHate
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25 Aug 2014, 2:27 pm

As we discover more "advantageous" DNA , his morality should enable us to abort ordinary people fetuses, because they will not have the productive potential as future superior humans.

CHINA IS ENGINEERING GENIUS BABIES
http://www.vice.com/read/chinas-taking- ... ng-program

A person with 100 IQ would suffer having to fit in with a civilization of geniuses, the civilized practice would be to terminate it before it has feelings.



starkid
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25 Aug 2014, 2:40 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:


That is unbelievably stupid. Identifying "smart" people to sequence via test scores and colleges attended?



The_Walrus
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25 Aug 2014, 2:44 pm

GGPViper wrote:
So, the widespread outrage over Dawkins' comments seems rather pointless... as the vast majority of people apparently agrees with him. :shrug:

C'mon, you're better than this.

A vast majority of people would not raise a DS baby.
That is very different from "a vast majority of people think not aborting a DS baby is immoral".

By your logic, anyone who has had an abortion thinks that every parent on the planet is immoral.



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25 Aug 2014, 2:50 pm

I admire Dawkins for the way he attacks religions, but he doesn't speak for atheists as we don't have a "pope" or any representative. I see no problem with aborting any fetuses before they have developed a brain. I won't judge people who decide they would rather not bring a child with severe disability into the world (it's not for everyone).


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GGPViper
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25 Aug 2014, 2:50 pm

starkid wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
So, the widespread outrage

What widespread outrage?

https://news.google.com/news?ncl=dI9Y3p ... CC8QqgIwAQ

starkid wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
over Dawkins' comments seems rather pointless... as the vast majority of people apparently agrees with him. :shrug:

Most people agree, so disagreement is pointless? That makes no sense. All sorts of situations started out with most people agreeing, and the minority of dissidents later changing minds. Even if they don't change others' minds, I don't see how it's pointless to have an opinion about something.

Also, the fact that these people decide to get these fetuses aborted does not necessarily imply that they agree with Dawkins that it is a moral thing to do (they may simply find it to be an expedient thing to do, for example), and it does not at all imply that they agree that it would be immoral not to do so. Furthermore, the explanation given in the Methods section suggests that the attitudes of women only were included , and we have no idea how many from what you've posted, so I don't see how you've concluded that the "vast majority" of people agree.

Very well, I stand corrected.

The vast majority of women who received a positive diagnosis of Downs Syndrome during a prenatal screening choose to have an abortion, and thus choose exactly the same outcome as Richard Dawkins advocates.