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beneficii
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30 Aug 2014, 1:32 pm

ravenloft68 wrote:
My wife and I want to see what happens with our 8 month old son. I have undiagnosed Asperger because of what I believe was an MMR shot when I was 1 year old. I grew up with Hyperactivity, prolonged uncontrolled crying, High-school diagnosed Learning Disability,Social-Interactive problems, Loner behavior, gullibility and people taking advantage of me via misreading social cues. etc.
We have refused the MMR Vax and the Muiti-Combination Vaccines. Plus, only breast milk has been given (No Formula). So Far? NORMAL!! But of course, We'll see. So...as far as it being genetically "Passed Down" We'll see as well.


I got my MMR vaccine shot in elementary school. I was already in special ed when I received it.


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Feralucce
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30 Aug 2014, 2:30 pm

ravenloft68 wrote:
My wife and I want to see what happens with our 8 month old son. I have undiagnosed Asperger because of what I believe was an MMR shot when I was 1 year old. I grew up with Hyperactivity, prolonged uncontrolled crying, High-school diagnosed Learning Disability,Social-Interactive problems, Loner behavior, gullibility and people taking advantage of me via misreading social cues. etc.
We have refused the MMR Vax and the Muiti-Combination Vaccines. Plus, only breast milk has been given (No Formula). So Far? NORMAL!! But of course, We'll see. So...as far as it being genetically "Passed Down" We'll see as well.


*sigh* I was not vaccinated til long after my diagnosis. the miracle of genetics states that you certain genetic factors down to your children. There are very few conditions that have a 100% chance of being passed down.

I will also say that you suspect you have asperger's. Without a diagnosis, it is impossible to state that you have it.


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ravenloft68
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30 Aug 2014, 3:32 pm

*sigh* I was not vaccinated til long after my diagnosis. the miracle of genetics states that you certain genetic factors down to your children. There are very few conditions that have a 100% chance of being passed down.

I will also say that you suspect you have asperger's. Without a diagnosis, it is impossible to state that you have it.[/quote]

Yes, every case can be different. I think in mine it could have been an early developmental genetic mutation or damage caused by the vaccine.

So, I and others who are "undiagnosed" members on Wrong Planet are considered invalid?


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Feralucce
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30 Aug 2014, 4:19 pm

EXCEPT that recent studies have shown that autistic brains have two indicators.

One is different structures in the nerve trunks in our brain. High Definition Fiber Tracking has revealed similar structures in all autistics tested.

The image on the left is Temple Grandin's brain. The other is an NT.

[img][800:671]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OK1sMVHv1Hc/Uiv8psduiDI/AAAAAAAABp8/PMBDqD2xMQ8/s1600/Autism_Extra4_1280_940x671.jpg[/img]

Secondly, autistic brains have more synapses than nt brains. There is a process in which the brain trims excess synapses and it does not appear our brains do this...

The top is an NT brain, the bottom is an autistic brain.

Image

BOTH of these traits are found, in utero and at birth. Vaccines are not given before birth. Therefore, logically speaking, it is not possible for a vaccine to be the cause of these structures.

I have long posited that the behavior traits of autistics were caused by "excessive" interconnectivity within the brain and these recent studies have born this out.

I am in no way stating the undiagnosed are invalid. I am, however, stating that without the attentions of psychiatric professional, it is not possible to conclusively state that an individual has an autistic spectrum disorder or not. There are several (I want to use the word, many) conditions that can be confused for one another as they show similar pathologies and have overlapping diagnostic criteria. Further, I believe (and this is an opinion shared by the several psychiatric professionals that I use for a sounding board in my research and my blog series "The care and feeding of your Aspie") that a great many of the cases of autism are a case of misdaignosis. (this is discussed HERE)

Further, the number of people that have claimed to have asperger's syndrome that are a) attention seeking, using it as an excuse for bad behavior, are in fact simply lacking in social skills is staggering. Just like the number of people who claim to have multiple personality disorder. A diagnosis is your most potent tool in your arsenal, honestly.

I discuss that HERE


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riley
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31 Aug 2014, 8:48 pm

beneficii wrote:
If you notice, all the anti-vaxxers have got are insinuations. Oh, this scientist embezzled money, so let's say that all research that agrees with his research is lying.


It is not unreasonable to question the results of a lead scientist who is now a fugitive for stealing large sums of money from a study he was commissioned to do.

..or is he only a liar and a fraud sometimes yet magically moral only when writing conclusions between shifting grant money into his accounts?

Even if his results were correct for the sake of the CDC's own image of scientific integrity that study should've been retracted and I was stunned when they didn't. People like to blame Wakefield for ALL vaccine skepticism yet are expected to blindly trust a thief which is ridiculous. Why the double standard? Why is Wakefield's small study blamed for all the doubts of vaccines safety yet the validity of Thorsen's study is not to be questioned? Perhaps because the Danish study is THE study most cited as having disproved a vaccine/autism link.



khaoz
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31 Aug 2014, 8:59 pm

Sounds like some scientist is throwing the CDC to the wolves to draw attention to something he did previous to being employed at CDC. Maybe he/she is an attention seeker out for fame and fortune.



ravenloft68
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31 Aug 2014, 11:12 pm

Thanks Feralucce for the enlightenment! It is definitely something to consider and I do like to keep an open mind. We are still in the early stages of fully understanding all the internal and external factors and definitive causes.


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riley
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01 Sep 2014, 12:01 am

khaoz wrote:
Sounds like some scientist is throwing the CDC to the wolves to draw attention to something he did previous to being employed at CDC. Maybe he/she is an attention seeker out for fame and fortune.


I've seen nothing to support what you're claiming. He has incriminated himself as well so the "drawing attention away" from something he's done previously doesn't make any sense as this is something he did previously and he apparently regrets it.

CDC employed Poul Thorsen and have not retracted his paper so they've already thrown themselves to the wolves credibility wise.



beneficii
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01 Sep 2014, 1:26 am

riley wrote:
beneficii wrote:
If you notice, all the anti-vaxxers have got are insinuations. Oh, this scientist embezzled money, so let's say that all research that agrees with his research is lying.


It is not unreasonable to question the results of a lead scientist who is now a fugitive for stealing large sums of money from a study he was commissioned to do.

..or is he only a liar and a fraud sometimes yet magically moral only when writing conclusions between shifting grant money into his accounts?

Even if his results were correct for the sake of the CDC's own image of scientific integrity that study should've been retracted and I was stunned when they didn't. People like to blame Wakefield for ALL vaccine skepticism yet are expected to blindly trust a thief which is ridiculous. Why the double standard? Why is Wakefield's small study blamed for all the doubts of vaccines safety yet the validity of Thorsen's study is not to be questioned? Perhaps because the Danish study is THE study most cited as having disproved a vaccine/autism link.


In neither case was Thorsen a lead author (see below). And again, fraud committed by one scientist does not topple the whole literature as the anti-vaxxers say.

Quote:
Madsen, K. M.; Hviid, A.; Vestergaard, M.; Schendel, D.; Wohlfahrt, J.; Thorsen, P.; Olsen, J. R.; Melbye, M. (2002). "A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism". New England Journal of Medicine 347 (19): 1477?1482. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa021134. PMID 12421889.

Madsen, K. M.; Lauritsen, M. B.; Pedersen, C. B.; Thorsen, P.; Plesner, A. M.; Andersen, P. H.; Mortensen, P. B. (2003). "Thimerosal and the occurrence of autism: Negative ecological evidence from Danish population-based data". Pediatrics 112 (3 Pt 1): 604?606. doi:10.1542/peds.112.3.604. PMID 12949291.


Are you implicating the other authors?

Had he been the lone researcher, I would probably call for a retraction. However, there's no evidence that in either study bad methodology was used or that the results were manipulated.

Wakefield's was withdrawn because he used shoddy methodology in his study and actually manipulated the results to come to a pre-determined conclusion..

And, again, there are numerous other studies that Thorsen was not part of coming to the same conclusion: unlikely link between MMR vaccine and autism.

I don't know what good it'll do at this point, as this Cochrane Library systematic review of the literature has been and probably will still be willfully ignored by the anti-vaxxers, showing that the body of research of a whole supports the claim that a link between autism and MMR vaccine is unlikely:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22336803

This review covered dozens of studies and millions of children.

(You do know this is the 3rd time I posted this Cochrane Library review, right? Maybe the anti-vaxxers can open their minds a bit and take a look at its findings.)

It is ridiculous to say that a single researcher who embezzled money means that this Cochrane Library systematic review, the entire literature, must be toppled, its conclusions ignored, and hello to measles, mumps, and rubella again.

I think most anti-vaxxers posting here are scientifically illiterate and intellectually dishonest. Why, you ask? Because they give no credence to things like systematic reviews and meta-analyses which look all over the literature to try to create a big picture of where the research is headed. They may not even understand that systematic reviews and meta-analyses are the highest quality types of research out there and carry great weight, worth much more for understanding the topic than looking at individual studies.

All the anti-vaxxers have are picking at little things here and there, while missing the big picture of the research, and science and medicine have moved on without them.

One might say they miss the forest for the trees.


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riley
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01 Sep 2014, 2:29 am

Quote:
http://www.justice.gov/usao/gan/press/2011/04-13-11.html
According to United States Attorney Yates, the charges and other information presented in court: In the 1990s, THORSEN worked as a visiting scientist at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, when the CDC was soliciting grant applications for research related to infant disabilities. THORSEN successfully promoted the idea of awarding the grant to Denmark and provided input and guidance for the research to be conducted. From 2000 to 2009, the CDC awarded over $11 million to two governmental agencies in Denmark to study the relationship between autism and exposure to vaccines, between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and between childhood development and fetal alcohol exposure. In 2002, THORSEN moved to Denmark and became the principal investigator for the grant, responsible for administering the research money awarded by the CDC.


See where it says "principal investigator"? I like how you dismiss him as just being one of the authors when he actually led the study. A man of questionable integrity led the research. It does not matter if the other researchers were complicit in financial or scientific fraud.. just him being their boss is enough to have a question mark over their work.

The lead researcher; the guy IN CHARGE of that study is on the run for stealing huge sums of money for a study he went out of his way to get commissioned to do. It's not like he just stole a pen or didn't tuck his shirt in. Questioning that study is not unreasonable.. and it DOES NOT MATTER how many times you defend his work with "but antivaxxers are just looking for excuses" BS mantra. It does not undo the damage he has done to the CDC's reputation. That is the CDCs fault and no-one else's.

I must say I do find it disturbing you should be defending his work given his character.



Last edited by riley on 01 Sep 2014, 5:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

Feralucce
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01 Sep 2014, 2:30 am

ravenloft68 wrote:
Thanks Feralucce for the enlightenment! It is definitely something to consider and I do like to keep an open mind. We are still in the early stages of fully understanding all the internal and external factors and definitive causes.


No problem. One of my Special Interests is our condition... so, I am pretty current on current research.


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01 Sep 2014, 9:21 am

JON RAPPOPORT: "CDC whistleblower?s confession: his personal safety is still an issue" (August 31, 2014)

Quote:
...William Thompson is claiming he won?t talk to reporters. [...] We?ll see if he holds to this promise. He and his lawyer may discover talking to reporters is his only option. For the sake of protection.

If Thompson comes out, he?d better insist on a live, uncensored, uncut video interview?done simultaneously in front of several different crews, uploaded in real time to dozens of sites, whereupon it can travel around the world in a matter of seconds.

And his security had better be excellent.

If he plans to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/ ... l-an-issue


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beneficii
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01 Sep 2014, 11:21 am

riley wrote:
Quote:
http://www.justice.gov/usao/gan/press/2011/04-13-11.html
According to United States Attorney Yates, the charges and other information presented in court: In the 1990s, THORSEN worked as a visiting scientist at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, when the CDC was soliciting grant applications for research related to infant disabilities. THORSEN successfully promoted the idea of awarding the grant to Denmark and provided input and guidance for the research to be conducted. From 2000 to 2009, the CDC awarded over $11 million to two governmental agencies in Denmark to study the relationship between autism and exposure to vaccines, between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and between childhood development and fetal alcohol exposure. In 2002, THORSEN moved to Denmark and became the principal investigator for the grant, responsible for administering the research money awarded by the CDC.


See where it says "principal investigator"? I like how you dismiss him as just being one of the authors when he actually led the study. A man of questionable integrity led the research. It does not matter if the other researchers were complicit in financial or scientific fraud.. just him being their boss is enough to have a question mark over their work.

The lead researcher; the guy IN CHARGE of that study is on the run for stealing huge sums of money for a study he went out of his way to get commissioned to do. It's not like he just stole a pen or didn't tuck his shirt in. Questioning that study is not unreasonable.. and it DOES NOT MATTER how many times you defend his work with "but antivaxxers are just looking for excuses" BS mantra. It does not undo the damage he has done to the CDC's reputation. That is the CDCs fault and no-one else's.

I must say I do find it disturbing you should be defending his work given his character.


Even if all his studies had to be thrown out, the Cochrane Library review would still show--and I am not posting it a fourth time--that there are dozens more studies covering millions of children that together show a link between MMR vaccine and autism to be unlikely.

That a single man embezzled money doesn't matter in the big picture of scientific and medical research. It is sad that the anti-vaxxers can't see that.


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beneficii
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01 Sep 2014, 11:23 am

AspieUtah wrote:
JON RAPPOPORT: "CDC whistleblower?s confession: his personal safety is still an issue" (August 31, 2014)

Quote:
...William Thompson is claiming he won?t talk to reporters. [...] We?ll see if he holds to this promise. He and his lawyer may discover talking to reporters is his only option. For the sake of protection.

If Thompson comes out, he?d better insist on a live, uncensored, uncut video interview?done simultaneously in front of several different crews, uploaded in real time to dozens of sites, whereupon it can travel around the world in a matter of seconds.

And his security had better be excellent.

If he plans to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/ ... l-an-issue


Yeah and not have his statement clipped to pieces in order to quote him out of context, as has been done already.


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riley
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01 Sep 2014, 12:48 pm

Quote:
Even if all his studies had to be thrown out, the Cochrane Library review would still show--and I am not posting it a fourth time--that there are dozens more studies covering millions of children that together show a link between MMR vaccine and autism to be unlikely.


There have been studies that do show vaccine injury leading to autism, there have also been compensations via the vaccine court for brain damage manifesting as autism. Encephalitis can cause autism and vaccine injury can cause encephalitis. This is a known side effect.

Quote:
That a single man embezzled money doesn't matter in the big picture of scientific and medical research. It is sad that the anti-vaxxers can't see that.

Yep you keep focusing on the "single man" part, however that single man was in charge of a study that is considered to be the absolute proof against the autism/vaccine link and is the one most cited. If the CDC want credibility they cannot afford to have criminals providing scientific proof in their name.

..and again you carry on about "anti-vaxxers". I am not against vaccines. You however obviously have a problem with anyone questioning the safety of vaccines. They are a medical product and therefore have side effects just like any other medical product. They are not magical gift to be worshiped without question.



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01 Sep 2014, 1:37 pm

Dr. Brownstein's Holistic Medicine wrote:
...Dr. Thompson wrote a letter to CDC Director Julie Gerberding ten days before the landmark 2004 article came out pointing out that the vaccine was associated with a significantly increased risk in autism in African American babies. Of course, the subsequent 2004 Pediatics article did not reflect this increase; it stated there was no correlation between the vaccine and autism. Where does Julie Gerberding work now? She is reported to be president of Merck?s vaccine division. Merck, of course, sells the MMR vaccine....

http://blog.drbrownstein.com/toxic-vacc ... dc-coverup

Wikipedia.org wrote:
The Obama Administration did not keep Gerberding and she resigned from her post on January 20, 2009.[4] and is now the president of Merck's Vaccine division. She is also Director of MSD Wellcome Trust Hilleman Laboratories Private Limited, a joint initiative between Merck and Wellcome Trust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Ger ... esignation


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