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Raptor
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14 Sep 2014, 8:41 pm

/\
1. The occupation came as a result of the invasion. Occupations tend to be lengthy, even before W.
2. The invasion came as a result of *current intel which had been compromised in recent years by Clinton's spending cuts.
3. Had George Sr. gone all the way back in 1991 there would have still been a lengthy occupation with resultant issues for years to come.
4. It's a s**t sandwich over there no matter who's slicing it.

*current as in what was known up to the time of the decision to invade. What came later hardly counts since the proverbial train had already left the proverbial station.


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14 Sep 2014, 9:24 pm

Raptor wrote:
/\
1. The occupation came as a result of the invasion. Occupations tend to be lengthy, even before W.
2. The invasion came as a result of *current intel which had been compromised in recent years by Clinton's spending cuts.
3. Had George Sr. gone all the way back in 1991 there would have still been a lengthy occupation with resultant issues for years to come.
4. It's a s**t sandwich over there no matter who's slicing it.

*current as in what was known up to the time of the decision to invade. What came later hardly counts since the proverbial train had already left the proverbial station.


Sure, the train's left the station, and there's not a lot we can do but accept reality and do our best. But the last thing we ought to be doing is getting tied down in the arm pit of the planet in a never ending conflict. That's the way great powers diminish. We need only recall how Spain had once been the preeminent world power, but had gotten involved in one endless war of religion after another against Protestant Europe, which depleted their power and wealth to the point where they became the third rate power they are today. While it might not seem appropriate to follow Obama's plan of having minimal involvement, followed by an exit, but what's the alternative? Getting tied down in an endless conflict that will leave the country a husk of what it once was?
And incidentally, Cheney and the neocons in W's administration had never intended that we leave Iraq; but rather that we stay there in a parasitic/colonial relationship with that country. If there was any reason for our overly extended occupation, and the enmity that the Iraqis came to hold for Americans, this was it.


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14 Sep 2014, 9:54 pm

Whatever happened to the anti-war movement?



Raptor
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14 Sep 2014, 10:16 pm

Raptor wrote:
1. The occupation came as a result of the invasion. Occupations tend to be lengthy, even before W.
2. The invasion came as a result of *current intel which had been compromised in recent years by Clinton's spending cuts.
3. Had George Sr. gone all the way back in 1991 there would have still been a lengthy occupation with resultant issues for years to come.
4. It's a s**t sandwich over there no matter who's slicing it.

*current as in what was known up to the time of the decision to invade. What came later hardly counts since the proverbial train had already left the proverbial station.


Kraichgauer wrote:
Sure, the train's left the station, and there's not a lot we can do but accept reality and do our best. But the last thing we ought to be doing is getting tied down in the arm pit of the planet in a never ending conflict. That's the way great powers diminish. We need only recall how Spain had once been the preeminent world power, but had gotten involved in one endless war of religion after another against Protestant Europe, which depleted their power and wealth to the point where they became the third rate power they are today. While it might not seem appropriate to follow Obama's plan of having minimal involvement, followed by an exit, but what's the alternative? Getting tied down in an endless conflict that will leave the country a husk of what it once was?
Already discussed. Tossing Spain?s history in there doesn?t change anything since, as a people, we generally refuse to learn from history.

Quote:
And incidentally, Cheney and the neocons in W's administration?.
Why not just call it the Third Reich or The Sith since that?s what you?re thinking.

Quote:
??had never intended that we leave Iraq; but rather that we stay there in a parasitic/colonial relationship with that country. If there was any reason for our overly extended occupation, and the enmity that the Iraqis came to hold for Americans, this was it.
Gets back to what I was saying about occupations generally being long as a rule of thumb.


From earlier that I forgot about:
Kraichgauer wrote:
By the way, cool Dirty Harry avatar. :thumleft: :thumleft:
Thanks. :D
I was going to take bets on which one of your gun hating liberal buddies will be the first to take offense over it but that might be considered to be rather trollish or even baiting so I won?t. :P


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Raptor
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14 Sep 2014, 10:18 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Whatever happened to the anti-war movement?
Obama took office and magically it wasn't such a horrendous and evil war any more.


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14 Sep 2014, 10:37 pm

Either that or Ron Paul scared them away. Maybe a little bit of both.



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14 Sep 2014, 11:40 pm

Raptor wrote:
Raptor wrote:
1. The occupation came as a result of the invasion. Occupations tend to be lengthy, even before W.
2. The invasion came as a result of *current intel which had been compromised in recent years by Clinton's spending cuts.
3. Had George Sr. gone all the way back in 1991 there would have still been a lengthy occupation with resultant issues for years to come.
4. It's a s**t sandwich over there no matter who's slicing it.

*current as in what was known up to the time of the decision to invade. What came later hardly counts since the proverbial train had already left the proverbial station.


Kraichgauer wrote:
Sure, the train's left the station, and there's not a lot we can do but accept reality and do our best. But the last thing we ought to be doing is getting tied down in the arm pit of the planet in a never ending conflict. That's the way great powers diminish. We need only recall how Spain had once been the preeminent world power, but had gotten involved in one endless war of religion after another against Protestant Europe, which depleted their power and wealth to the point where they became the third rate power they are today. While it might not seem appropriate to follow Obama's plan of having minimal involvement, followed by an exit, but what's the alternative? Getting tied down in an endless conflict that will leave the country a husk of what it once was?
Already discussed. Tossing Spain?s history in there doesn?t change anything since, as a people, we generally refuse to learn from history.

Quote:
And incidentally, Cheney and the neocons in W's administration?.
Why not just call it the Third Reich or The Sith since that?s what you?re thinking.

Quote:
??had never intended that we leave Iraq; but rather that we stay there in a parasitic/colonial relationship with that country. If there was any reason for our overly extended occupation, and the enmity that the Iraqis came to hold for Americans, this was it.
Gets back to what I was saying about occupations generally being long as a rule of thumb.


From earlier that I forgot about:
Kraichgauer wrote:
By the way, cool Dirty Harry avatar. :thumleft: :thumleft:
Thanks. :D
I was going to take bets on which one of your gun hating liberal buddies will be the first to take offense over it but that might be considered to be rather trollish or even baiting so I won?t. :P


Oh c'mon, everyone loves Dirty Harry! :lol:


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15 Sep 2014, 12:28 am

Raptor wrote:
I was going to take bets on which one of your gun hating liberal buddies will be the first to take offense over it but that might be considered to be rather trollish or even baiting so I won?t. :P


The old mod crew wouldn't have let me get away with that one, I was specifically instructed not use any avatars with a gun pointing at the camera. Now, even then there were other people that had them, but those guys were always looking for an excuse to come down on me.


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15 Sep 2014, 8:00 am

I do find it amusing how many DC politicians are blasting the president's speech despite the fact that it is just echoing many of their own statements of just a few weeks to months ago. Funny to see so many flip-flop Democrats suddenly supporting it and so many flip-flop Republicans blasting it. Just more of the "us vs them" BS.


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15 Sep 2014, 9:47 am

zer0netgain wrote:
The speech proves that a talking monkey would make a better President than what we now have.

Air strikes, but no boots on the ground.

Um, we LOST Vietnam WITH boots on the ground. The VC easily survived our air strikes, many of which were routed through so much political oversight that by time a target was approved for destruction, the VC had moved on.

Arm and train the locals to fight.

Um, the "locals" haven't shown much of an interest to fight AGAINST ISIS except if they are personally threatened with death...and even then they would rather join and save their lives than fight and know they will be wiped out. Never mind that in time, these people WILL turn on us and they will be armed and equipped by our side.

Arm and train the anti-Assad rebels.

Okay, Assad isn't a good guy, but the "rebels" are Islamic fanatics and pretty much the opposite side of the same coin as ISIS. So, you want to give aid to the bad guys?

Help ISIS fight ISIL.

Hey, Obama, you moron. ISIS and ISIL are the SAME FREAKING THING. Granted, the average American doesn't keep on top of all these details, but ISIS (aka IS) and ISIL are the same organization. Changing what YOU call them doesn't fool those of us who are watching the situation unfold.


So what is your better idea?

There are only three options: direct military occupation, indirect aid/airstrikes, and doing nothing at all.

Direct action ala W. Bush failed. According to indirect action ala Obama wont work. So are saying we should just do nothing?



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15 Sep 2014, 2:03 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I was going to take bets on which one of your gun hating liberal buddies will be the first to take offense over it but that might be considered to be rather trollish or even baiting so I won?t. :P


The old mod crew wouldn't have let me get away with that one, I was specifically instructed not use any avatars with a gun pointing at the camera. Now, even then there were other people that had them, but those guys were always looking for an excuse to come down on me.


Hey, at least it's not a German pirate emblem. :P


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15 Sep 2014, 7:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
Dantac wrote:
All I can say is ... /fail .


Arm the rebels in Syria.. who themselves are for all facts and purposes Al-Q and a bunch of warlord wannabe and sectarian militias that dream of becoming the next ISIS/L . This never works and hasn't worked. The weapons supplied don't magically vanish if group X defeats Y, it remains in the hands of very volatile and extremist population who only accept our help while it benefits them but after they're done needing us they'll go back to trying to kill us. Its absurd.

Bring arab nations into the alliance that is actively fighting ISIS? Never going to happen. The UAE and Saudis will not lift a finger unless ISIS comes after them directly.


You know that, and so do I. And yes, I consider my cousin to be a fool. But who's more foolish? The fool or the fools who elected the fool?


No, the fools are the ones who elected Dubya who got us into this mess in the Middle East in the first place by destabilizing the region, then who went on to vote for Mitt the plastic Mormon with all his class hatred and betrayal of his formerly progressive ideals.

:roll:
Are you really so partisan as to believe that things are that much better with having Obama instead of Romney in office?

Well, now we'll never have to find out.
But seriously, Romney was so eager to sell his soul (divest himself of any progressive ideals he had once held) to garner the favor of the far right that I think it possible we'd see a disastrous turn to the right in this country. If I'm wrong, why didn't he moderate his platform after he had won the Republican nomination? The guy was going to dismantle the Affordable Care Act, which he was the grandfather of, with his own state level healthcare policy.


No one is more delusional than you Kraichgauer. As you have been made aware time and time again, I used to investigate medical fraud for the Defense Department. My biggest case erupted in 1992. It involved some $72.4 Billion in tax dollars. A lot of people went to jail - but no money was recovered. We had 115 investigators nationwide with average caseloads of 64 cases a piece averaging $440 million per case. Now, knowing how liberals can't do math, have a conservative help you out with this. Then you'll see why we're in a deficit. The best way to avoid government fraud and a deficit is to not have any social an medical programs at all.


And have what in it's place? People left to die in their own feces when they could be saved? Are you content to just let people die if they can't pay for medical coverage? Sure there's going to be fraud here and there, but the alternative is far worse. Why the hell do you think people are living so long, were it not for government subsidies in healthcare?


Once again, you exaggerate. The reason people live longer is due to achievements made in the private sector - not through public welfare.


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15 Sep 2014, 8:18 pm

Longshanks wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
Dantac wrote:
All I can say is ... /fail .


Arm the rebels in Syria.. who themselves are for all facts and purposes Al-Q and a bunch of warlord wannabe and sectarian militias that dream of becoming the next ISIS/L . This never works and hasn't worked. The weapons supplied don't magically vanish if group X defeats Y, it remains in the hands of very volatile and extremist population who only accept our help while it benefits them but after they're done needing us they'll go back to trying to kill us. Its absurd.

Bring arab nations into the alliance that is actively fighting ISIS? Never going to happen. The UAE and Saudis will not lift a finger unless ISIS comes after them directly.


You know that, and so do I. And yes, I consider my cousin to be a fool. But who's more foolish? The fool or the fools who elected the fool?


No, the fools are the ones who elected Dubya who got us into this mess in the Middle East in the first place by destabilizing the region, then who went on to vote for Mitt the plastic Mormon with all his class hatred and betrayal of his formerly progressive ideals.

:roll:
Are you really so partisan as to believe that things are that much better with having Obama instead of Romney in office?

Well, now we'll never have to find out.
But seriously, Romney was so eager to sell his soul (divest himself of any progressive ideals he had once held) to garner the favor of the far right that I think it possible we'd see a disastrous turn to the right in this country. If I'm wrong, why didn't he moderate his platform after he had won the Republican nomination? The guy was going to dismantle the Affordable Care Act, which he was the grandfather of, with his own state level healthcare policy.


No one is more delusional than you Kraichgauer. As you have been made aware time and time again, I used to investigate medical fraud for the Defense Department. My biggest case erupted in 1992. It involved some $72.4 Billion in tax dollars. A lot of people went to jail - but no money was recovered. We had 115 investigators nationwide with average caseloads of 64 cases a piece averaging $440 million per case. Now, knowing how liberals can't do math, have a conservative help you out with this. Then you'll see why we're in a deficit. The best way to avoid government fraud and a deficit is to not have any social an medical programs at all.


And have what in it's place? People left to die in their own feces when they could be saved? Are you content to just let people die if they can't pay for medical coverage? Sure there's going to be fraud here and there, but the alternative is far worse. Why the hell do you think people are living so long, were it not for government subsidies in healthcare?


Once again, you exaggerate. The reason people live longer is due to achievements made in the private sector - not through public welfare.

36 Reasons Why You Should Thank a Union

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/1 ... -Your-Life[quote]
Weekends
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Kraichgauer
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15 Sep 2014, 8:49 pm

Longshanks wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
Dantac wrote:
All I can say is ... /fail .


Arm the rebels in Syria.. who themselves are for all facts and purposes Al-Q and a bunch of warlord wannabe and sectarian militias that dream of becoming the next ISIS/L . This never works and hasn't worked. The weapons supplied don't magically vanish if group X defeats Y, it remains in the hands of very volatile and extremist population who only accept our help while it benefits them but after they're done needing us they'll go back to trying to kill us. Its absurd.

Bring arab nations into the alliance that is actively fighting ISIS? Never going to happen. The UAE and Saudis will not lift a finger unless ISIS comes after them directly.


You know that, and so do I. And yes, I consider my cousin to be a fool. But who's more foolish? The fool or the fools who elected the fool?


No, the fools are the ones who elected Dubya who got us into this mess in the Middle East in the first place by destabilizing the region, then who went on to vote for Mitt the plastic Mormon with all his class hatred and betrayal of his formerly progressive ideals.

:roll:
Are you really so partisan as to believe that things are that much better with having Obama instead of Romney in office?

Well, now we'll never have to find out.
But seriously, Romney was so eager to sell his soul (divest himself of any progressive ideals he had once held) to garner the favor of the far right that I think it possible we'd see a disastrous turn to the right in this country. If I'm wrong, why didn't he moderate his platform after he had won the Republican nomination? The guy was going to dismantle the Affordable Care Act, which he was the grandfather of, with his own state level healthcare policy.


No one is more delusional than you Kraichgauer. As you have been made aware time and time again, I used to investigate medical fraud for the Defense Department. My biggest case erupted in 1992. It involved some $72.4 Billion in tax dollars. A lot of people went to jail - but no money was recovered. We had 115 investigators nationwide with average caseloads of 64 cases a piece averaging $440 million per case. Now, knowing how liberals can't do math, have a conservative help you out with this. Then you'll see why we're in a deficit. The best way to avoid government fraud and a deficit is to not have any social an medical programs at all.


And have what in it's place? People left to die in their own feces when they could be saved? Are you content to just let people die if they can't pay for medical coverage? Sure there's going to be fraud here and there, but the alternative is far worse. Why the hell do you think people are living so long, were it not for government subsidies in healthcare?


Once again, you exaggerate. The reason people live longer is due to achievements made in the private sector - not through public welfare.


In part, what Stannis said.
But also, the achievements of the private sector would be out of reach of the needy were it not for government programs allowing them to take part in those benefits.
And before you say the needy would be better off self sufficient in the public sector, it should be remembered how the right (and admittedly pro-business Democrats) had allowed big business to leave American workers - and in fact whole communities - in poverty by leaving American shores in order to provide starvation wages to third world labor. You conservatives don't like the so called nanny state? Well, the persons responsible are looking right back at you in the mirror. Go Unions! Go nanny state!


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15 Sep 2014, 9:00 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Direct action ala W. Bush failed.

It was highly effective. The US won the war.



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16 Sep 2014, 11:01 am

Dox47 wrote:
Stannis wrote:
Yep. The Pentagon's PR department has formulated its propaganda really well this time. It's like a reset button on the whole Al Qaida-infinite war shtick that the Bush administration tried to set up, but f***d it up for themselves by being transparently corrupt, and not having a tight enough leash on the independent press. I wonder what new forms the eternal enemy will take in another 10 years, after the wider public catches on again.


Are you trying to imply that the US government is somehow behind the ISIS beheading videos? Cause I'm about as distrustful a person of the government as can be found, and I find it a bit of a stretch to believe that the state has orchestrated these videos as a means of drumming up support for a new war.


No, what I meant was that whatever the facts are, they'll be organised and omitted to market the expediences of the permanent war economy, and the crackdown on domestic civil liberties.