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Nights_Like_These
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19 Sep 2014, 2:24 pm

I've always preferred Aldous Huxley's idea of utopia... lol


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LoveNotHate
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19 Sep 2014, 3:00 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

And how is anything going to get done without taxation?


This is so funny; it is equivalent to asking , "How can anything get done without a government worker doing it?"

One word: self-determination



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19 Sep 2014, 5:05 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

And how is anything going to get done without taxation?


This is so funny; it is equivalent to asking , "How can anything get done without a government worker doing it?"

One word: self-determination


Uh... Okay. So self-determination is going to replace the Center of Disease Control if an epidemic breaks out. Or it's going to enforce laws - or for that matter enact laws - that protect consumers from shoddy and dangerous industrial products and food. Or provide fire and police protection. Or provide a strong military. Or provide roads and freeways that extend all across the country. Or provide a social safety net for the most vulnerable. And guess what - - not a bit of that is possible without taxation. Right wing conservatives and libertarians spout off bumper sticker slogans about self-determination, or individualism, or an end to taxation, or the nanny state, but in the end, those slogans are just hot air out the mouth - or wind from the other end.


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19 Sep 2014, 10:03 pm

RushKing wrote:
Ken Johnson is more objectivist then you realize.


You don't know anything about Objectivism. It's an intensively moralistic philosophy, in which everybody is held accountable for his own actions. Honesty is held to be a particularly important virtue, not in the 'no white lies' sense but in the deeper sense of never trying to gain a value through force or fraud. A person who knowingly defrauds others is not an Objectivist, period.

Quote:
Kens role within the transaction isn't to look out for Wendy, what he did was what anyone else does in a competition and looked out for himself.


Well, he did a piss-poor job of it. He's facing numerous lawsuits, his company is now worthless, he's likely to pay huge fines and may even serve time in jail. Certainly nobody will ever buy land from him again. It doesn't look to me like he managed to enhance his own life, more like he wrecked it. Contrary to popular belief, ripping people off for short-term gain is not actually in anybody's rational self-interest.



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19 Sep 2014, 11:26 pm

luanqibazao wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Ken Johnson is more objectivist then you realize.


You don't know anything about Objectivism. It's an intensively moralistic philosophy, in which everybody is held accountable for his own actions. Honesty is held to be a particularly important virtue, not in the 'no white lies' sense but in the deeper sense of never trying to gain a value through force or fraud. A person who knowingly defrauds others is not an Objectivist, period.

Quote:
Kens role within the transaction isn't to look out for Wendy, what he did was what anyone else does in a competition and looked out for himself.


Well, he did a piss-poor job of it. He's facing numerous lawsuits, his company is now worthless, he's likely to pay huge fines and may even serve time in jail. Certainly nobody will ever buy land from him again. It doesn't look to me like he managed to enhance his own life, more like he wrecked it. Contrary to popular belief, ripping people off for short-term gain is not actually in anybody's rational self-interest.


I especially liked the train crash scene where the following people are said by Rand to have deserved to die:

Quote:
The woman in Roomette 9, Car No. 12, was a housewife who believed that she had the right to elect politicians, of whom she knew nothing, to control giant industries, of which she had no knowledge.


Quote:
The man in Roomette 3, Car No. 11, was a sniveling little neurotic who wrote cheap little plays into which, as a social message, he inserted cowardly little obscenities to the effect that all businessmen were scoundrels.


Quote:
The woman in Bedroom D, Car No. 10, was a mother who had put her two children to sleep in the berth above her, carefully tucking them in, protecting them from drafts and jolts; a mother whose husband held a government job enforcing directives, which she defended by saying, 'I don't care, it's only the rich that they hurt. After all, I must think of my children.'


Quote:
The man in Roomette 2, Car No. 9, was a professor of economics who advocated the abolition of private property, explaining that intelligence plays no part in industrial production, that man's mind is conditioned by material tools, that anybody can run a factory or a railroad and it's only a matter of seizing the machinery.


Quote:
The woman in Roomette 6, Car no. 8, was a lecturer who believed that, as a consumer, she had "a right" to transportation, whether the railroad people wished to provide it or not.


Quote:
The man in Seat 5, Car No.7, was a worker who believed that he had "a right" to a job, whether his employer wanted him or not.


Quote:
The man in Bedroom H, Car No. 5, was a businessman who had acquired his business, an ore mine, with the help of a government loan, under the Equalization of Opportunity Bill.


Quote:
These passengers were awake; there was not a man aboard the train who did not share one or more of their ideas. As the train went into the tunnel, the flame of Wyatt's Torch was the last thing they saw on earth."

- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged", p566-568



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19 Sep 2014, 11:29 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
-Eduardo Saverin, Facebook founder renounced his citizenship and moved to Singapore right before his Facebook stock more than tripled. He is estimated to have saved over a hundred and eighty million dollars in taxes he would of had to pay. (note: I extrapolated the number from the article which mentions the stock price at 30 and it is presently 77)
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1079524

So he deprive the government of 180 millions $US while the government is in a debt crysis and there is peoples losing their jobs... I guess we should give him a medal for selfishly running away from such tyranny. :roll:

LoveNotHate wrote:
-Doug Casey, author/Libertarian speaker/gold investor finds Argentina the best place to live for a very wealthy person.
http://www.internationalman.com/article ... -the-world

Behold! The wealthy libertarians paradise!
[img][800:768]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Villamiseria5.JPG/1024px-Villamiseria5.JPG[/img]



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19 Sep 2014, 11:53 pm

Stannis wrote:
luanqibazao wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Ken Johnson is more objectivist then you realize.


You don't know anything about Objectivism. It's an intensively moralistic philosophy, in which everybody is held accountable for his own actions. Honesty is held to be a particularly important virtue, not in the 'no white lies' sense but in the deeper sense of never trying to gain a value through force or fraud. A person who knowingly defrauds others is not an Objectivist, period.

Quote:
Kens role within the transaction isn't to look out for Wendy, what he did was what anyone else does in a competition and looked out for himself.


Well, he did a piss-poor job of it. He's facing numerous lawsuits, his company is now worthless, he's likely to pay huge fines and may even serve time in jail. Certainly nobody will ever buy land from him again. It doesn't look to me like he managed to enhance his own life, more like he wrecked it. Contrary to popular belief, ripping people off for short-term gain is not actually in anybody's rational self-interest.


I especially liked the train crash scene where the following people are said by Rand to have deserved to die:

Quote:
The woman in Roomette 9, Car No. 12, was a housewife who believed that she had the right to elect politicians, of whom she knew nothing, to control giant industries, of which she had no knowledge.


Quote:
The man in Roomette 3, Car No. 11, was a sniveling little neurotic who wrote cheap little plays into which, as a social message, he inserted cowardly little obscenities to the effect that all businessmen were scoundrels.


Quote:
The woman in Bedroom D, Car No. 10, was a mother who had put her two children to sleep in the berth above her, carefully tucking them in, protecting them from drafts and jolts; a mother whose husband held a government job enforcing directives, which she defended by saying, 'I don't care, it's only the rich that they hurt. After all, I must think of my children.'


Quote:
The man in Roomette 2, Car No. 9, was a professor of economics who advocated the abolition of private property, explaining that intelligence plays no part in industrial production, that man's mind is conditioned by material tools, that anybody can run a factory or a railroad and it's only a matter of seizing the machinery.


Quote:
The woman in Roomette 6, Car no. 8, was a lecturer who believed that, as a consumer, she had "a right" to transportation, whether the railroad people wished to provide it or not.


Quote:
The man in Seat 5, Car No.7, was a worker who believed that he had "a right" to a job, whether his employer wanted him or not.


Quote:
The man in Bedroom H, Car No. 5, was a businessman who had acquired his business, an ore mine, with the help of a government loan, under the Equalization of Opportunity Bill.


Quote:
These passengers were awake; there was not a man aboard the train who did not share one or more of their ideas. As the train went into the tunnel, the flame of Wyatt's Torch was the last thing they saw on earth."

- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged", p566-568


What a disgusting, hateful b***h.


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RushKing
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20 Sep 2014, 12:13 am

luanqibazao wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Ken Johnson is more objectivist then you realize.


You don't know anything about Objectivism. It's an intensively moralistic philosophy, in which everybody is held accountable for his own actions. Honesty is held to be a particularly important virtue, not in the 'no white lies' sense but in the deeper sense of never trying to gain a value through force or fraud. A person who knowingly defrauds others is not an Objectivist, period.

But in competition the principles don't matter. The social system will bread preaditory behavior.
luanqibazao wrote:
Quote:
Kens role within the transaction isn't to look out for Wendy, what he did was what anyone else does in a competition and looked out for himself.


Well, he did a piss-poor job of it. He's facing numerous lawsuits, his company is now worthless, he's likely to pay huge fines and may even serve time in jail. Certainly nobody will ever buy land from him again. It doesn't look to me like he managed to enhance his own life, more like he wrecked it. Contrary to popular belief, ripping people off for short-term gain is not actually in anybody's rational self-interest.

Man is not a rational animal. It is a rationalizer.



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20 Sep 2014, 12:24 am

And the train just keeps on trollin'...


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luanqibazao
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20 Sep 2014, 1:01 am

Stannis wrote:
where the following people are said by Rand to have deserved to die:


If you have to resort to libel and strawmen, you haven't an argument.

Kraichgauer wrote:
What a disgusting, hateful b***h.


If you have to resort to puerile name-calling, you haven't an argument.



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20 Sep 2014, 1:06 am

luanqibazao wrote:
Stannis wrote:
where the following people are said by Rand to have deserved to die:


If you have to resort to libel and strawmen, you haven't an argument.

Kraichgauer wrote:
What a disgusting, hateful b***h.


If you have to resort to puerile name-calling, you haven't an argument.


As I'm not debating Ayn Rand, your argument had no validation. And the fact is, she was a horrible person.


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20 Sep 2014, 1:50 am

luanqibazao wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Ken Johnson is more objectivist then you realize.


You don't know anything about Objectivism. It's an intensively moralistic philosophy, in which everybody is held accountable for his own actions. Honesty is held to be a particularly important virtue, not in the 'no white lies' sense but in the deeper sense of never trying to gain a value through force or fraud. A person who knowingly defrauds others is not an Objectivist, period.

And yet one of her "heroes" is purposely building infrastructures of bad quality, which could kill peoples.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2013/08/atlas-shrugged-marge-vs-the-monorail/ Sound like fraud to me.

Or one of her "heroes" showing disdain to the idea of voluntary (Not even taxation.) charity. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2013/05/atlas-shrugged-corporate-philanthropy/

Her "heroes" don't see any problem with child labor. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2013/04/atlas-shrugged-worlds-worst-boss/

Her "heroes" also don't care about the public interest. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2014/05/atlas-shrugged-ayn-rand-vs-carl-sagan/

The train crash also show a very twisted sense of morality. So, it don't really seem like a "moralistic" philosophy.

luanqibazao wrote:
Quote:
Kens role within the transaction isn't to look out for Wendy, what he did was what anyone else does in a competition and looked out for himself.


Well, he did a piss-poor job of it. He's facing numerous lawsuits, his company is now worthless, he's likely to pay huge fines and may even serve time in jail. Certainly nobody will ever buy land from him again. It doesn't look to me like he managed to enhance his own life, more like he wrecked it. Contrary to popular belief, ripping people off for short-term gain is not actually in anybody's rational self-interest.

Not all defrauder are brought in front of justice, some simply escape with the money in foreign countries. At such, they acted according to their rational self-interest.

There is a lot of other insane things in Atlas Shrugged too. http://www.salon.com/2014/04/29/10_insane_things_i_learned_about_the_world_reading_ayn_rands_atlas_shrugged_partner/



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20 Sep 2014, 2:39 am

Tollorin wrote:
And yet one of her "heroes" is purposely building [ ? ] Her "heroes" don't see any problem with [ ?]


Yada yada yada. You know what, I have zero interest in defending Atlas line-by-line. It's a work of fiction, not meant to be taken literally; it's not my Bible nor even my favorite novel. Suffice it to say that whenever the above writer suggests 'so what Rand means by this, is ?' he is wrong. And the Salon writer you found goes off into sheer fantasy, which is not surprising given that source.

Quote:
The train crash also show a very twisted sense of morality. So, it don't really seem like a "moralistic" philosophy.


Not my fault if you've never heard of poetic justice.

Quote:
Not all defrauder are brought in front of justice, some simply escape with the money in foreign countries. At such, they acted according to their rational self-interest.


The society has never existed in which 100% of criminals are brought to justice. I still don't recommend anybody attempt a life of crime. The odds of enjoying a long, happy, free life are vanishingly small.



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20 Sep 2014, 5:03 am

Have you guys even read Atlas Shrugged? Yes, it's 1.75 million words, mostly author filibuster, but still, if you're going to talk about it, you need to have read it.

The thing about the train crash? It was caused by government messing around with the market. So it's not Rand saying that those people deserved to die, so much that she was pointing out that they died because they got what they wanted.

She didn't achieve much philosophically though, and Objectivism is almost as objectionable as Statism. Almost. But hey, I'm a left-libertarian, or perhaps a centre-left-libertarian. A post-scarcity agorist.



0_equals_true
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20 Sep 2014, 6:40 am

I'm a trade liberal/libertarian and primarily a competitionist and don't represent Rands word view.

As you say she was just another idealist.



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20 Sep 2014, 11:15 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Stannis wrote:
luanqibazao wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Ken Johnson is more objectivist then you realize.


You don't know anything about Objectivism. It's an intensively moralistic philosophy, in which everybody is held accountable for his own actions. Honesty is held to be a particularly important virtue, not in the 'no white lies' sense but in the deeper sense of never trying to gain a value through force or fraud. A person who knowingly defrauds others is not an Objectivist, period.

Quote:
Kens role within the transaction isn't to look out for Wendy, what he did was what anyone else does in a competition and looked out for himself.


Well, he did a piss-poor job of it. He's facing numerous lawsuits, his company is now worthless, he's likely to pay huge fines and may even serve time in jail. Certainly nobody will ever buy land from him again. It doesn't look to me like he managed to enhance his own life, more like he wrecked it. Contrary to popular belief, ripping people off for short-term gain is not actually in anybody's rational self-interest.


I especially liked the train crash scene where the following people are said by Rand to have deserved to die:

Quote:
The woman in Roomette 9, Car No. 12, was a housewife who believed that she had the right to elect politicians, of whom she knew nothing, to control giant industries, of which she had no knowledge.


Quote:
The man in Roomette 3, Car No. 11, was a sniveling little neurotic who wrote cheap little plays into which, as a social message, he inserted cowardly little obscenities to the effect that all businessmen were scoundrels.


Quote:
The woman in Bedroom D, Car No. 10, was a mother who had put her two children to sleep in the berth above her, carefully tucking them in, protecting them from drafts and jolts; a mother whose husband held a government job enforcing directives, which she defended by saying, 'I don't care, it's only the rich that they hurt. After all, I must think of my children.'


Quote:
The man in Roomette 2, Car No. 9, was a professor of economics who advocated the abolition of private property, explaining that intelligence plays no part in industrial production, that man's mind is conditioned by material tools, that anybody can run a factory or a railroad and it's only a matter of seizing the machinery.


Quote:
The woman in Roomette 6, Car no. 8, was a lecturer who believed that, as a consumer, she had "a right" to transportation, whether the railroad people wished to provide it or not.


Quote:
The man in Seat 5, Car No.7, was a worker who believed that he had "a right" to a job, whether his employer wanted him or not.


Quote:
The man in Bedroom H, Car No. 5, was a businessman who had acquired his business, an ore mine, with the help of a government loan, under the Equalization of Opportunity Bill.


Quote:
These passengers were awake; there was not a man aboard the train who did not share one or more of their ideas. As the train went into the tunnel, the flame of Wyatt's Torch was the last thing they saw on earth."

- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged", p566-568


What a disgusting, hateful b***h.

:lol: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


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