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beneficii
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19 Sep 2014, 1:46 pm

http://mic.com/articles/99272/the-white ... eds-to-see


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Persevero
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19 Sep 2014, 2:22 pm

A decent idea - I would only intervene if I'm absolutely sure though. I've never looked the other way, as far as I can remember. The closest thing I did to step in was during this yelling heated argument between a woman and a man (I assumed they were bf/gf or exes by the content of the argument): I was driving by and slowed down to a stop to make sure they wouldn't come to blows. They were too busy spewing accusations at each other to notice the invasion of privacy. Eventually the girl started walking away and the boy didn't follow, so I went on my way..

But from what starvingartist on this forum has been telling us, the majority of sexual assault cases are crimes of opportunity committed by people that are known to the victim and in private. A campaign for respecting women's space and treating them as equal human beings would be far more effective in that case.



adifferentname
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19 Sep 2014, 4:25 pm

Thread Title wrote:
Every man needs to see this


Why men specifically? Are there too many female vigilantes already?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PgH86OyEM[/youtube]

Oh wait no, that wasn't the point of that video at all.

People are more likely to step in when this kind of thing happens in a public place with lots of witnesses. Most people who encounter the behaviour demonstrated in the darelondon experiment will walk on by out of self-preservation when the setting is more private or isolated.

And really, the behaviour of other humans is not "on us" for any given value of "us" unless we personally raise, mentor, force or coerce said humans.

The message seems to be: Don't blame the victim, but don't blame the perpetrator either. Instead, blame bystanders or the friends and family of the victim.



Persevero
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19 Sep 2014, 4:49 pm

I don't think there's a "Us VS Them" mentality here adifferentname. I believe it's more to get people to care about third parties, so this kind of stuff doesn't happen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese



adifferentname
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19 Sep 2014, 5:37 pm

Persevero wrote:
I don't think there's a "Us VS Them" mentality here adifferentname. I believe it's more to get people to care about third parties, so this kind of stuff doesn't happen


If by here you mean the video, I agree. The video features people of both genders. I still find it misguided but not on divergent ideological grounds, merely in terms of practicality and logic.

If you mean the article I object to the statement "Officials are hoping to send a powerful message to all students, but with a particular emphasis on the role of men in tackling rape culture", though not the rest of it.

The onus here is being placed on men to act as a unified police force against bad behaviour, which is not in line with the message of the video. The suggestion is that men are responsible for the predatory behaviour of other people of both genders (in the context of both the video and the article). This is a clear case of scapegoating on the part of the author of the piece.

I've done some searching, and I can't find any quotes from "officials" that come anywhere near what has been reported here. This is still identity politics, but in a moderate and, dare I say, tolerable form. That said, it has clearly informed Beneficii's thinking when choosing a title for this thread.

I can only infer one of two meanings from the title:

Either

Women don't need to be taught to watch out for each other because they already do and men do not.

Or

Women aren't able to do anything about it so it's up to the men to 'police their own'.

So yeah, there's definitely some Us VS Them mentality here. There's room for productive discussion here, but I suggest an alternative topic title as the current one is inflammatory and divisive. In addition, lets leave this "rape culture" silliness at the door.



AspieOtaku
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19 Sep 2014, 10:29 pm

To be more fair and realistic its more like this:

Men rape women

Men rape men

Women rape women

Women rape men

Now not every man is a rapist nor is every woman a small percentage of the populous are rapists and people who are psychotic abusive and crave overpowering another person. Nobody should rape anybody its wrong, cruel and traumatizes people for life, if you are a human being DON'T DO IT!


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adifferentname
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20 Sep 2014, 12:49 am

It's not as simple as "don't do it", sadly. There are human beings who cannot control or suppress their baser urges when opportunity presents itself. Offenders are primarily driven by sexual impulses that are unchecked due to some personality defect. Telling them "DON'T DO IT!" is about as effective as telling a smoker not to smoke.



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20 Sep 2014, 2:18 am

I say this to relatives all the time, who insist on watching media propaganda targeted at the masses. Its messages are not always benevolent, and It takes time and effort to break down every piece of marketing in order to blunt it's manipulative power. Better to expose ourselves to none of it. That probably doesn't have a lot to do with this specific PSA, though, and I hope it succeeds with its objectives.

This one too :D
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw[/youtube]





Lag Posts V



Last edited by Stannis on 20 Sep 2014, 7:26 am, edited 20 times in total.

0_equals_true
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20 Sep 2014, 2:55 am

Regardless of maybe the unfortunate wording of the OP, I got the point of the video, which is honorable.

I do think it is a bit 1980s in style though. So I wonder if it is preaching to the converted.

Also I think that there is a differnce between honorable intent and belief and how people intervene in practice.

I know this from martial arts liveliness training. People freeze up surprisingly often, the dear in the headlight syndrome, as well as people that just rubber neck.

Occasionally the woman next door has bad day, especially if the baby is crying and she start screaming. It is very difficult to know at what point to intervene in a situation like that, becuase it doesn't necessarily mean she is bad mother, also knowing people the grew up in care it not a bed of roses. Also recently I think she has go more family help.



adifferentname
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20 Sep 2014, 8:05 am

Stannis wrote:
I say this to relatives all the time, who insist on watching media propaganda targeted at the masses. Its messages are not always benevolent, and It takes time and effort to break down every piece of marketing in order to blunt it's manipulative power. Better to expose ourselves to none of it. That probably doesn't have a lot to do with this specific PSA, though, and I hope it succeeds with its objectives.


Indeed. One should always keep in mind whom the target audience may be. Especially with anything created by the 'guv'mint'. The goals of politicians are rarely the goals of you or I.

0_equals_true wrote:
Regardless of maybe the unfortunate wording of the OP, I got the point of the video, which is honorable.

I do think it is a bit 1980s in style though. So I wonder if it is preaching to the converted.


I agree. Although there is nothing sinister in the message, it has a regressive tone. As you also pointed out, intervention is not always the correct response. I can't help but feel this kind of advice has the potential to put people in harms way - especially those with disorders or mental health problems. But that's being super-critical, however relevant to WP.



0_equals_true
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20 Sep 2014, 8:57 am

it is kind of vaguer than other campaigns I have seen, but maybe this is deliberate.



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20 Sep 2014, 9:56 am

The only way to deter rapists is a warning not a message to all men.
The warning usually includes a gun, and a defensive response from would be victims. This video is a joke. Give people the will and the way to defend themselves, not a pathetic please don't rape speal. Another way our government fails. The only tough no-tolerence action we ever took during obama's presidency was showing china its place with those b-52's.


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20 Sep 2014, 10:07 am

No, it is not my responsibility to intervene or police the actions of other people. The type of people that would take on that "responsibility" are probably the predators you're warning against and white knight "perfect gentleman" weirdos.

There are actual tangible ways of reducing sexual violence but gets dismissed as "victim blaming".



adifferentname
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20 Sep 2014, 10:25 am

Jacoby wrote:
No, it is not my responsibility to intervene or police the actions of other people. The type of people that would take on that "responsibility" are probably the predators you're warning against and white knight "perfect gentleman" weirdos.


Quite right. While there is no standard psychological profile for rapists, there are some commonalities. One of these is a tendency to use violence to solve problems.

Quote:
There are actual tangible ways of reducing sexual violence but gets dismissed as "victim blaming".


From the article:

Part of the White House's campaign includes arming students with helpful information and resources that advises them on how to recognize a potential sexual assault situation and how to prevent it.

Obama to men:

The truth is, it?s not just okay to intervene, it is your responsibility.

If it's not okay to suggest women take self-defence classes or take precautions, why is it acceptable to say "Hey men, why aren't you taking steps to prevent rape?"

It's not "on us", it's on them. It is irresponsible and dishonest to scapegoat in this manner.



aghogday
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20 Sep 2014, 11:49 am

Meh, hyperbole is the standard in Internet journalism today, but no the government takes a more realistic view when presenting PSA's and that is obvious in the video where the responsibility is placed on US; no, not one individual alone, whether female or male but obviously the target audience moreover is males as the issue here is dominance and in general males are the dominate gender, per physical abilities to sexually assault women, and the truth is males often act in packs to generate eventual assaults whether influenced by substance usage or not.

When I go to dance now, I often see this and even am asked to participate by helping in surrounding a group of girls who are protecting themselves from unwanted advances. I do not play that game, so I simply say no. I look at women as human beings not objects to dominate, but yes, unfortunately that is the mind set of some males and yes some females too.

But, overall, as shown by science, humans do have an empathy gene and show respect when others are uncomfortable with unwanted advances; but true it does not always work well, if it even works well at all, depending on innate and environmental aspects of the end result of what human empathy can bring to social interaction that works peacefully. It is the outliers that get the attention, in the media of course, and yes that attention is well worth it, as any potential defense against sexual assault with the full help of US or the tribe, is extremely important to the victim.

And yes, just saying no, and not participating in pack behavior, that is more often the case among males than females, is certainly a start to reduce sexual assaults. And even if one is prevented, the PSA is more than worth its weight in gold.

I've long since lost interest in emotional hyperbole on any Internet journalism effort. No one controls my emotions, as I have the relative free will not to let that happen. I simply ignore it and look for what rings true and what is simply emotional hyperbole BS to sell advertisements or Facebook likes.

It's a little unsettling to me, that as many people here suggest it's not there responsibility to help fellow human beings from being assaulted; no, I am not going to risk my life to do it, but there is definitely safety in numbers when 'US' works together to prevent folks from getting hurt. I'm not fearless when it comes to risking my life, but hell no, I'm not afraid to help someone in reasonable need whether I frigging no them or not.

But yes, I realize not everyone's a 230LB martial artist, and that makes a difference in my attitude verses the potential attitude of someone else, that is not as fearless as I am, overall, in most social circumstances.

It's a human thing. Some folks are naturally brave and some folks are not. And that's OK. Not all folks are cut out to help other folks they do not know or willing to take any risks at all. And some folks simply do not and or cannot care. And that is part of the human condition as is, that according to science is becoming more of a problem. That reality in life now, at least in part, results in PSA's like these, for folks who see the pack behavior of males up close and personal. And to be clear females do that too, but relatively speaking, not too many guys, seriously complain about it, so it doesn't get the same airplay or significance.

And yes, I have been subject to that more than a few times when I go to dance, but although it at times is uncomfortable the same thing that makes me fearless to help other folks in reasonable situations, makes me fearless when much weaker females attempt to 'take advantage of me'. It's laughable for me, but no, not for a 5 FT tall 100 LB girl, with someone of my size and strength approaching her per dominant mating behavior.

It's literally terrifying, but I have empathy and understand that, and why I always respect my privilege as a stronger human being, and do not dominate others this way. And besides, I'm happily married, and have no interest in the mating ritual of dance at all.

Sadly some folks don't and yes, it's usually the males that have this physical advantage. It's common sense that they are the overall target audience of the PSA, but with good measure by the government, not the only one. It takes more than one person to institute real change. It does take us. The PSA will be effective for folks with high levels of empathy, for all humans, not just the ones they know. And yes, those kind of humans do exist. It's called altruism; a common human and other primate trait.


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20 Sep 2014, 10:20 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Regardless of maybe the unfortunate wording of the OP, I got the point of the video, which is honorable.

I do think it is a bit 1980s in style though. So I wonder if it is preaching to the converted.

Also I think that there is a differnce between honorable intent and belief and how people intervene in practice.

I know this from martial arts liveliness training. People freeze up surprisingly often, the dear in the headlight syndrome, as well as people that just rubber neck.

Occasionally the woman next door has bad day, especially if the baby is crying and she start screaming. It is very difficult to know at what point to intervene in a situation like that, becuase it doesn't necessarily mean she is bad mother, also knowing people the grew up in care it not a bed of roses. Also recently I think she has go more family help.


that and you are liable and can be sued for interfering. save someone from drowning in a car, they turn around and sue you. etc. everyone is sue happy now adays. I don't want to be sued, go to jail or die, so I have to be careful that its needed before just jumping in.