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heavenlyabyss
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01 Oct 2014, 6:34 pm

That site is poorly moderated. I wouldn't bother with it.



The_Walrus
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01 Oct 2014, 6:42 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
So all atheists are comparable to religious nuts? Are there no atheists comparable to religious non-nuts? Are there no atheist non-nuts?


In a world where it's reasonable to say 'nothing good comes from religion' it's reasonable to assert that ALL atheists are comparable to religious nuts... :roll:

That (along with similar claims like "most deaths in war are due to religion") really annoys me. There are much better arguments for secularism that also don't alienate the religious and stand up to scrutiny.



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01 Oct 2014, 7:26 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
I did not attack Darwin.


I argued on WP the premise of the movie 'Prometheus' is possible, that evolution could be pre-determined based on DNA forming selectively (based on deterministic bias) and had to endure numerous insults.

Insults come from insecurity, so when an atheist insults you, it exposes their lack of confidence in what they believe.




I'm not defending atheists. Have encountered many an angry bigotted atheist online. Atheists seemed to have the same human failings as folks of any other creed.

But I AM defending honesty.

This victim's fable of your's is highly missleading to say the least!

First off-your choice of words just now.

"I was arguing that evolution could be predetermind......"

Interesting that you include that opaque jargon about DNA, but leave out the bottom line.

You didnt state what that piece of jargon actually MEANS in plain English.

What it means is "human evolution was programmed in advance by a visiting race of ancient space aliens".

Kinda makes a difference.

Second: Even THAT (this space alien idea you got from your favorite Russell Crowe movie) is NOT what you were REALLY "arguing" for on WP that day.

Thats your second lie by omission.

What you were actually "arguing" was that the whole Scientific Community is blinded by "religous faith", and that the proof of that it is:the whole Scientific Community doesnt instantly drop Darwin and accept the premise of this recent Hollywood sci fi thriller as the basis of all future biological research. Chuck natural selection and go with prepramming by space aliens as the basic assumption of all science. Thats what you were actually arguing for.


You paint yourself here as humbly suggesting some technical idea about DNA- and getting crucified for it. When in fact you were making tall ambitious claims.

But even those ambitioius claims were not folks were on you about.


What they were on you about was: that (a) you couldnt back up your alien idea with any evidence, (b)you admitted you couldnt back it up, (c) admitted that you didnt even believe in your alien idea yourself, but (d) still maintaind that even though YOU didnt believe in it -that the scientific community still HAD to believe in it- or be accused of being in denial!

It was the above self contradictory nonsense that folks were on you about.

So that's three lies by omission that you just told in this sob story just now.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 02 Oct 2014, 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Andreger
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02 Oct 2014, 1:36 am

All Orthodoxal Christians from my family cursed me for being Atheist. That's all I need to do about Christianity, their love and forgivingness.
You say not all Christians are such? Maybe but these are close friends of Russian Orthodox Church leaders and considered as very good and respected Christians in the society, moral authorities. So I see who is example of Christianity - men and women full of hate.



andrethemoogle
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02 Oct 2014, 2:37 am

Andreger wrote:
All Orthodoxal Christians from my family cursed me for being Atheist. That's all I need to do about Christianity, their love and forgivingness.
You say not all Christians are such? Maybe but these are close friends of Russian Orthodox Church leaders and considered as very good and respected Christians in the society, moral authorities. So I see who is example of Christianity - men and women full of hate.


Not all Christians are full of hate.

I'm Catholic myself, I don't hate anyone for being a different religion, that would be a stupid thing to do. I accept others for who they are and ignore the idiots that I don't like.



Andreger
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02 Oct 2014, 3:28 am

andrethemoogle wrote:
Andreger wrote:
All Orthodoxal Christians from my family cursed me for being Atheist. That's all I need to do about Christianity, their love and forgivingness.
You say not all Christians are such? Maybe but these are close friends of Russian Orthodox Church leaders and considered as very good and respected Christians in the society, moral authorities. So I see who is example of Christianity - men and women full of hate.


Not all Christians are full of hate.

I'm Catholic myself, I don't hate anyone for being a different religion, that would be a stupid thing to do. I accept others for who they are and ignore the idiots that I don't like.


You are probably the first Christian I know who is so open-minded. Others always hate something - atheism, homosexuals, family planing and so on, try to prohibit everything.



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02 Oct 2014, 6:24 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
In a world where it's reasonable to say 'nothing good comes from religion' it's reasonable to assert that ALL atheists are comparable to religious nuts... :roll:


So you consider it both reasonable and nutty, and, if that were not enough, it also means that every atheist is a nut, no matter if they support that claim or not? I suspect you wouldn?t like a similar sweeping generalization about religious people based on what some do.


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MindBlind
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03 Oct 2014, 6:16 am

I looked at the thread and its no different from any other forum I have been on. Some of them were civil, some of them weren't. You can't compare that to somebody who would kill someone for their beliefs or restrict somebody's civil rights for their beliefs (which is what most people would consider extremism).



0_equals_true
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03 Oct 2014, 2:14 pm

I hate to break it to you but atheists, don't all hang out on atheist forums. We have no congregation no body thinks on my behalf.



LoveNotHate
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03 Oct 2014, 5:09 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
After you stated that the premise of "Prometheus" was possible, there were several firm but civil pages dedicated to showing that you were wrong.


I know what I said, and argued.

- I cited NASA scientist that said NASA wipes down space vessels to prevent a 'Prometheus' "seeding event".
- I cited research paper claiming stochastic i.e., non-random evolution.
- I cited an essay that examined the philosophical debate among researchers about deterministic evolution.
- I cited wikipedia to show how by rules of logic that 'evolution' is an inductive proof, not deductive.
- I cited wikipedia to show that 'abiogenesis' contains a "we evolved from alien" theory
- I cited scientific inquiry by researchers into the question of whether DNA evolved deterministically (see "Did DNA evolve by random mutation")
- I cited basic science references of chemistry, atomic theory, and the elementary forces of nature (specifically, electromagnetism) to show that we know from basic science that bonding/electromagnetic attraction don't occur randomly, they are happening based on these forces of nature i.e., there is an attraction/bonding preference

I did all this while going through hours of painstaking explanation, and enduring insults that I am delusional and what I am saying is nonsense.

What is wrong ? What do you know that these PHD people do not ?



Last edited by LoveNotHate on 03 Oct 2014, 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DentArthurDent
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03 Oct 2014, 5:21 pm

To be more accurate you cited cherry picked sentences and paragraphs taken out of context. You also placed Hawking seriously out of context when you claimed he gave evidence for an intelligent designer. You also led me astray by giving a vague definition of you employment which led me to assume you were a highly paid legal professional, when in fact you are a patent clerk. In short you method of debate would appear to be one of slight of hand and smoke and mirrors.


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LoveNotHate
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03 Oct 2014, 5:38 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
To be more accurate you cited cherry picked sentences and paragraphs taken out of context. You also placed Hawking seriously out of context when you claimed he gave evidence for an intelligent designer. You also led me astray by giving a vague definition of you employment which led me to assume you were a In short you method of debate would appear to be one of slight of hand and smoke and mirrors.


*sigh* where do I begin ...

You don't appear to under understand Hawking's M-Theory. Hawking's M-Theory says that in the multiverse there will be fined tuned universes. How many times have I explained this to you ? That is why he is quoted on wikipedia acknowledging that the Earth appears finely tuned, and as well the physicist Davies is quoted on wikipedia saying it is widely regarded by physicists/cosmologists that the Earth is finely tuned for life.

Are you saying that the wikipedia page is a fraud ???? Are you saying that prominent physicists are lieing ? Where is your evidence ? Please back up what you saying, rather endlessly attacking me for introducing you to some knowledge.


DentArthurDent wrote:
highly paid legal professional, when in fact you are a patent clerk.


Yes, I work as "patent clerk" as you call it, because of my ASD.

However, I find that we are generally paid higher than private attorneys. We make like 140-150k / year if we are lazy, and ~160k/year for hard workers. We work from home, so it is one of the few jobs I can do with my ASD.



AspE
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03 Oct 2014, 6:25 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I've been writing on AtheistForums.com for quite some time now. And I can tell you, these people are no better than the religious nuts they are attacking.

You can't disagree with them. If you do, even the moderator of the forum will shout out vulgar language towards you, attacking you as a person/individual, and even accusing you of being a
religious nut yourself.

I simply can't help but notice again, and again, and again throughout history of mankind, that every community will be angry towards anyone who do not conform strictly to their ideas.

I did not attack Darwin. You know what I did? All I asked was if there was a possibility that religion is not neccessarily the root of all evil, but that evil comes from politics, and that the
religious nuts aren't really pulling religion down on politics, its the other way around: One's political opinions are reflected in your religious beliefs. Ie. If you think God hates liberals,
it is because YOU hate liberals.

That innocent little thing could get the atheist forum members into a vulgar attack on me as a person, shouting "f**k you", "do you f*****g understand that..."

I don't hate atheists. I don't hate religious people. But I hate communities and group adherence and I despise conformity.
THAT is the root of all evil. And atheists are conformists too, when grouped, thus they become no better than the religious people.


It sounds like there was no intelligent conversation going on there. Choose another forum. Atheists are people too, with all the faults of humanity. Religion is obviously not the source of all evil.

But, I would disagree with the point you were trying to make. I hear it all the time, that it wasn't the religion that caused... jihad, the crusades, bashing gays, slavery, misogyny, science denial, etc... But the fact is that religion and unquestioning faith in that religion did cause and reinforce most of these things. It starts with early conditioning and fear of not believing, and it leads to carrying out the reprehensible aspects of many religious texts in real life. Yes, there is often more than one cause for events. I'm sure profit was also a motive for the crusades. And I'm sure being gay isn't accepted in most cultures (since promoting reproduction can be the major source of a family's prosperity), but religion takes these secular reasons and surrounds them with a shield of faith that socially prevents questioning of them.



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03 Oct 2014, 9:22 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

*sigh* where do I begin ...

You don't appear to under understand Hawking's M-Theory. Hawking's M-Theory says that in the multiverse there will be fined tuned universes. How many times have I explained this to you ? That is why he is quoted on wikipedia acknowledging that the Earth appears finely tuned, and as well the physicist Davies is quoted on wikipedia saying it is widely regarded by physicists/cosmologists that the Earth is finely tuned for life.

Are you saying that the wikipedia page is a fraud ???? Are you saying that prominent physicists are lieing ? Where is your evidence ? Please back up what you saying, rather endlessly attacking me for introducing you to some knowledge.

.


"SIGH" ........................................

When are you going to get it that using Hawking as evidence for an intelligent creator is wrong. It is wrong because he in know way attributes the apparent fine tuning of the universe to anything other than natural causes. Oh, and by the way, unlike you I actually read whole books and complete studies rather than snippets of wikipedia and abstracts of publications. So please do not aggrandise yourself with the thought that you are introducing me to "new KNowledge"

And just to stop you playing the victim. I am in no way denigrating the work of patent clerks, rather I am suggesting that you were deliberately vague and deceptive regarding your occupation with the aim of misleading me into thinking you were a very high paid lawyer. In fact you did this as a way of showing how great was your intelligence compared to mine. As I remember after you gave your misleading information you then asked me what I do for a living.

Going back to your statement that companies pay high priced lawyers millions of dollars a year to argue against you, have you ever thought that this may be because you make poor decisions?


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LoveNotHate
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03 Oct 2014, 10:14 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
When are you going to get it that using Hawking as evidence for an intelligent creator is wrong. It is wrong because he in know way attributes the apparent fine tuning of the universe to anything other than natural causes. Oh, and by the way,


Originally, a statement was made that there is no evidence for a creator. I cited the evidence on wikipedia that our universe appears fined tuned for life according to physicists based on the constants in our universe. This is statistical evidence for a creator, because it suggests a non-random outcome.

DentArthurDent wrote:
unlike you I actually read whole books and complete studies rather than snippets of wikipedia and abstracts of publications. So please do not aggrandise yourself with the thought that you are introducing me to "new KNowledge"


You have repeatedly accused me of "quoting out of context", and insulted me too boot -- when in fact I am presenting a widely accepted view in cosmology/physics. So, I am left with the impression that I am presenting new information to you. For example, on your previous post, you stated that I am "smoke and mirrors".

If you don't agree, OK.
If you think it is bad evidence, OK.
If you think there is faulty logic, OK. Then please where the physicists who believe in a fine-tuned Earth have errored in their reasoning.

Physicist Roger Penrose presents the argument the statistical improbability of the Earth being so finely tuned. [time at 3:18 he gets to the mathematics].
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhGdVMBk6Zo


DentArthurDent wrote:
And just to stop you playing the victim. I am in no way denigrating the work of patent clerks, rather I am suggesting that you were deliberately vague and deceptive regarding your occupation with the aim of misleading me into thinking you were a very high paid lawyer. In fact you did this as a way of showing how great was your intelligence compared to mine. you then asked me what I do for a living.


It is a bit disturbing that you apparently looked back through my posts to dig up information on me. However, I brought up my work because you have repeatedly accused me of "quoting out of context", and insulted me. I explained I do this for a living, so I know what I am doing.

Quote:
As I remember after you gave your misleading information
Going back to your statement that companies pay high priced lawyers millions of dollars a year to argue against you, have you ever thought that this may be because you make poor decisions?


That is not what I said. I don't like getting into specifics now that you looked up my occupation, however, in accordance with what I said earlier, yes, tons of money is spent on arguing with me. I generally argue with lawyers from one of the top ten technology companies of (Google, Microsoft, IBM ...) because computer engineering is my area.

I hear $60,000 quoted as a "ballpark figure" for the amount of money it takes to pay a lawyer through several years of prosecution to get a single patent. This varies widely though. Note: $60,000 is just for one. Appeal briefs can add a lot more to the cost too.

And I work on hundreds of these cases a year.



Last edited by LoveNotHate on 04 Oct 2014, 12:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Lukecash12
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03 Oct 2014, 11:14 pm

Andreger wrote:
All Orthodoxal Christians from my family cursed me for being Atheist. That's all I need to do about Christianity, their love and forgivingness.
You say not all Christians are such? Maybe but these are close friends of Russian Orthodox Church leaders and considered as very good and respected Christians in the society, moral authorities. So I see who is example of Christianity - men and women full of hate.


There are no clear cut examples and stereotypes are never appropriate. Period. End of sentence. You'd think that people could at least be more rational than that, this is such a basic and common error of logic that it gives me a damned conniption every time I see it from sheer disappointment.

In the Christian community there is incredible diversity. In every community there is incredible diversity. If you haven't a clue what the original disputes are actually over and what most of the arguments are then you are in no position to stand on your high horse and say "all Christians are thus and such". Seriously people, we should progress beyond such nonsense at some point. We've been banging our head against these walls for a couple thousand years, you'd think that a more reasonable segment of society would begin to understand the rules and syntax of logic.


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