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Greentea
Bull in China Shop par Excellence!
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 2211
Location: Middle East
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: Power relations unawareness - an aspie trait? |
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This may sound too weird but I didn't know till recently that you're supposed to behave differently towards someone depending if they're in a position of power in relation to you or not. Eg: if a person is highly influential in a group and you're not, you don't express an opinion that goes against their beliefs.
People were usually appalled at my lack of "sensitivity" in this respect, automatically thinking I was "rebellious" rather than unaware.
Has anyone else here experienced something like this? |
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Postperson
The Daughter of Indifference
Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Age: 51
Posts: 2802
Location: Uz
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: |
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yes, i'm a blind fool about this stuff. never really 'see' a pecking order so i don't see the required behaviours in those situations. it's very damaging.
i guess someone has to say 'the emporer isn't wearing any clothes', but i would like to be more conscious of it. |
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girl7000
Majestic Eagle Owl
Joined: Mar 11, 2007
Posts: 1263
Location: Somewhere in the Atlantic
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I have had this problem too.
I think it probably is an AS thing. People with AS don't understand the 'unwritten' social rules and conventions - and the 'power' and 'status' issues would certainly come under this category.
The mischievous side of me says well done for being 'rebellious'!
Sometimes, for the sake of not getting into any kind of trouble, it is better not to express your disagreement with someone- but at the same time it can be really frustrating when someone says or does something really wrong or stupid and no-one says anything just because the person who said it is considered to be of high status! |
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Greentea
Bull in China Shop par Excellence!
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 2211
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: |
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I'm so grateful for your replies! It took me a lot of courage to post this, because I always carried this problem of mine as my most horrible shame, and I thought I was alone in this. I was never able to understand what was wrong with me in this regard. My family always called me evil for this.
I'm 45 and my life was largely ruined by this issue. I'm unemployed, friendless and family don't want to hear from me. I'm totally alone. I'm considered a troublemaker, a rebel, rude - because I always somehow end up saying that the king is nude, without knowing what I'm saying has to be shut up. I always swear to people that I didn't do it on purpose, but nobody believes me. I often fail to notice who has to be sucked up to in a group, too, and to what extent.
I'm very afraid of my future. |
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Izaak
Squeeky Bathtime Companion
Joined: Jun 11, 2007
Posts: 1154
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: |
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haha... this reminds me of an incident I had with the owner of a construction firm. I told him off and called him a dumbass for walking through our work (statement was along the lines of "Watch the wet paint dumbass" [he did duck under the tape and walk past a "caution: wet paint sign"]. He then told me that he owned the company and that was no way to talk to him. To which I reply... oh so that means you should have known better, so don't do it again. (story is still retold amongst my co-workers every now and then)
I simply refuse to treat people differently (i.e. step toe around them) simply because they have more status. I'll respect their acheivements and honour them by shouting them a round if they really want one. But I won't cower down simply because they are apparently higher in the pecking order than I am. If that is the status they are after they won't get any from me. |
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Izaak
Squeeky Bathtime Companion
Joined: Jun 11, 2007
Posts: 1154
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Greentea wrote: | I'm so grateful for your replies! It took me a lot of courage to post this, because I always carried this problem of mine as my most horrible shame, and I thought I was alone in this. I was never able to understand what was wrong with me in this regard. My family always called me evil for this.
I'm 45 and my life was largely ruined by this issue. I'm unemployed, friendless and family don't want to hear from me. I'm totally alone. I'm considered a troublemaker, a rebel, rude - because I always somehow end up saying that the king is nude, without knowing what I'm saying has to be shut up. I always swear to people that I didn't do it on purpose, but nobody believes me. I often fail to notice who has to be sucked up to in a group, too, and to what extent.
I'm very afraid of my future. |
Only advice I can give you is that you'll never make it anywhere as an AS via the social networking route.... you'll just have to be good at what you do and navigate your way higher via the knowledge route with a bit of social networking to your capacity put in for good measure.
An interesting phenomenon that I have found is that if you don't asskiss and you get called on it, don't apologise and grovel. For some reason people then seem to think that you are going to be the next leader of the group and they start kissing your arse. It can be downright annoying if you just want to be left alone to do your work. But it's better than getting no-where.
Has anyone else noticed that phenomenon? Mayhap it be a way for AS'ers to take the initiative at work. |
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girl7000
Majestic Eagle Owl
Joined: Mar 11, 2007
Posts: 1263
Location: Somewhere in the Atlantic
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Izaak wrote: | | Greentea wrote: | I'm so grateful for your replies! It took me a lot of courage to post this, because I always carried this problem of mine as my most horrible shame, and I thought I was alone in this. I was never able to understand what was wrong with me in this regard. My family always called me evil for this.
I'm 45 and my life was largely ruined by this issue. I'm unemployed, friendless and family don't want to hear from me. I'm totally alone. I'm considered a troublemaker, a rebel, rude - because I always somehow end up saying that the king is nude, without knowing what I'm saying has to be shut up. I always swear to people that I didn't do it on purpose, but nobody believes me. I often fail to notice who has to be sucked up to in a group, too, and to what extent.
I'm very afraid of my future. |
Only advice I can give you is that you'll never make it anywhere as an AS via the social networking route.... you'll just have to be good at what you do and navigate your way higher via the knowledge route with a bit of social networking to your capacity put in for good measure.
An interesting phenomenon that I have found is that if you don't asskiss and you get called on it, don't apologise and grovel. For some reason people then seem to think that you are going to be the next leader of the group and they start kissing your arse. It can be downright annoying if you just want to be left alone to do your work. But it's better than getting no-where.
Has anyone else noticed that phenomenon? Mayhap it be a way for AS'ers to take the initiative at work. |
This is interesting advice. I can't really do the 'networking' thing either, which has actually limited my career opportunities.
I have found an alternative career choice where the status rubbish isn't so much of an issue and my original career choice I now pursue independently in my spare time and try to 'network' when absulutely necessary via email or post or phone - I don't 'go' to any networking events, and I try to avoid workplaces where there is a social heirarchy which you are expected to worship.
Where I work, there is a hierarchy, but people understand that I am not good at this kind of thing, so are happy to explain the 'do's' and 'don'ts' for each person. They also like the fact that I don't recognise status as it means that I don't take cr*p from people just because they have a fancy sounding job title.
I try to always be polite - even when I am disagreeing with or criticising someone - so that generally helps me stay out of too much trouble! |
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methinks
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 07, 2007
Age: 40
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| I try to be polite,respectful,and patient with everyone,but I have never respected social hierarchies for their own sake,and I don't have much faith in people who do admire that game.That has put me on thin ice with teachers and bosses,even arrogant friends who fancy themselves "alpha".Destructive ineptitude,ignorance,incompetance gnaw away at me and I eventually get fed up with it. |
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cognizant
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: May 24, 2007
Posts: 189
Location: Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Power relations unawareness - an aspie trait? |
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| Greentea wrote: | This may sound too weird but I didn't know till recently that you're supposed to behave differently towards someone depending if they're in a position of power in relation to you or not. Eg: if a person is highly influential in a group and you're not, you don't express an opinion that goes against their beliefs.
People were usually appalled at my lack of "sensitivity" in this respect, automatically thinking I was "rebellious" rather than unaware. |
I do it even if I know who is the boss and what s/he thinks (I am frequently told about it). Maybe I am really rebellious because I hate violence which is usual for a person with high rank. |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 44
Posts: 4973
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: |
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I have had this problem my whole life and yes,it is an AS trait to not respect "status and titles" but individual traits in people.
I think this is logical.We know that just because someone is born into a certain social status(caste,royalty,wealth),that it doesnt make them a better person.It is also obvious to me(Bush adminstration is a good example),people are often promoted to positions just because of their conections and not their ability/honesty/intelligence.
I dont often recognise social structures in purely social situations,but I know my boss has the power to fire me.Even with this knowledge I apparently over step my boundaries just by giving suggestions?I,also have a bad habit of interupting conversations when I have a "work-related" question and the managers are just "chit-chatting".Even if I do "know" that an individual is supposed to be respected.....president,manager,teacher....they have to earn my respect by possessing qualities I respect;honesty,intelligence,compassion,creativity.
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Just because one plane is flying out of formation, doesnt mean the formation is on course....R.D.Lang
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Shayne
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 12, 2007
Posts: 336
Location: South Florida, USA Age: 24
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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WE'VE GOT THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE AND
THERE AIN'T NO WAY WE'LL LOSE IT
THIS IS OUR LIFE, THIS IS OUR SONG
WE'LL FIGHT THE POWERS THAT BE JUST
DON'T PICK OUR DESTINY 'CAUSE
YOU DON'T KNOW US, YOU DON'T BELONG
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE |
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willem
Winner of 1 Aspiggie!!!
Joined: Apr 07, 2007
Posts: 1510
Location: Cascadia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Power relations unawareness - an aspie trait? |
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| Greentea wrote: | | This may sound too weird but I didn't know till recently that you're supposed to behave differently towards someone depending if they're in a position of power in relation to you or not. Eg: if a person is highly influential in a group and you're not, you don't express an opinion that goes against their beliefs. |
This is not always true. It depends on the personality of the "influential" individual. Bosses/leaders do not all have inflated egos; the good ones are open to ideas that they can't come up with themselves. Also, places of work that are supervised by people with highly inflated egos are probably not suitable for us Aspies, except maybe if the job is temporary.
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There is nothing that is uniquely and invariably human. |
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Beenthere
10 Miles South of Sanity
Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Age: 41
Posts: 2079
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: |
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 I am very patient for the most part, and try to do my best to understand things from every point of view....but...
...an a$$*ole is an a$$*ole....power, money, or status never meant a thing to me...I tend to call them as I see them.
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*Normal* is just a setting on the dryer. |
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Greentea
Bull in China Shop par Excellence!
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 2211
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I was always honestly puzzled when a boss or other would constantly interrupt me and then, when I interrupted them, they'd tell me that "it's rude to interrupt a person talking". Now I understand that they don't mean "a person" but they mean "a person who is in a position of power over you."
Now I also understand why some people won't tolerate me doing things to them which they always do to me. I do it once, I'm out. It's because they're in a position of power over me and they can demand things I can't demand. Eg, my aunt never used to call me, so I stopped calling her too. She's now very angry at me, for not calling. I never understood that I was supposed to call her even if she didn't call me because she's in a position of power over me in the family (everyone looks up to her).
Conversely, I never expect deferential treatment from people just because I'm in a position of power over them (such as because they need a favor from me or I can help them with something).
It's too late to understand there's such a thing as "pecking order" now at my age. My life is already a mess. |
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Fiat_Lux
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 10, 2005
Posts: 75
Location: Singularity
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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It’s interesting to come across this topic. Throughout my life, I’ve encountered situations when the people around me would defer automatically to some person, but I could never understand why.
Reading some of the responses here suggests to me that maybe NTs are somehow unconsciously able to detect a social hierarchy and to know who is at the top of that hierarchy. Once they have established that, they display a degree of deference to those at the top of this hierarchy. Conversely, they also seem to expect that they can be rude to those below themselves in this social hierarchy.
I’ve never been able to detect any such social hierarchy and have gone about my life attempting to treat everyone in an equal, polite (hopefully!) manner. This has caused me problems at work when I have not shown deference to managers whom I have considered to be rude or ignorant. Some managers are downright bullies. I’ve managed people before and I’ve never expected deference from those that I’ve managed. I’ve never worked out why some people want and expect others to defer to them.
In a work situation, the hierarchy is relatively clear due to job titles. However, even in a social situation some social hierarchy exists that I find indiscernible. Greentea, I sympathise with your plight. Don’t let the fact that you don’t play the game of hierarchy get you down. I end up observing people playing the game and have a good laugh. |
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