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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 44
Posts: 4973
Location: Village of the Damned
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 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Remnant wrote: | | Krex, did you ever get the feeling that you have to stay alive to right some wrongs in this world when it should not even be your job? It's like, if people have more intelligence than the dorm room furniture, you and I would not be spinning our wheels just trying to make things so that we can have room to breathe. |
Did you ever see the movie Clerks......if so,remember the line..."I wasnt even supposed to be here today." Thats pretty much how I feel.There are people who never give..."Why am I here" a second thought.Others who just fill in the blank with,"Gods plan" and other empty retoric.I dont think I am here to "right any wrongs because I believe the human project is wway past saving and I havent the energy to even try.After I decided to stop trying to kill myself I decided I was just going to stop looking for a "meaning" and just create some "rules for being" and my "meaning" would be to follow my rules.That seems to be working,OK for now.If I have to break my rules to stay alive it wont be "worth it".Of course this could all change tomorrow.....wouldnt be the frst time I realized I was wrong about everything I thought.
I do feel that if I didnt have to exert so much of my energy in meaningsless work I might have the energy to create "something".Spinning my wheels does aptly describe how my life is going in social contexts.Perhaps it is self dellusion but I do feel that I might be capable of "more" if I didnt spend half my waking hours cleaning toilets,changing diapers and trying to navigate the world of people.
She took the bearings from her ear
and placed them on a shelf
she looked around for guilty ones
but only found herself
locamotion,automation,lack of all intent
looked in pocket to find her youth
discovered it was spent
she was no longer innoscent
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Remnant
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 02, 2005
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't see the first Clerks movie but I get the idea.
I've spent too much time one the question "Why is this my freaking job?" when I should just do it, hope I can make some cash doing it, and if I succeed, enjoy the fringe benefits. The idea that it is my job leads the direction of solipsism and megalomania, but I should still accept the evidence when it points that direction.
There are some heavy duty applecarts that need to be tossed over and let the red rolly things go where they may. I am sick of treating this world like it's the public library and I'm supposed to be quiet and not hassle anyone.
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According to the scales, I am going to be living on birdseed and carrot sticks for the next 20 years. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 7010
Location: The Emerald Forest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Remnant wrote: |
There are some heavy duty applecarts that need to be tossed over and let the red rolly things go where they may. I am sick of treating this world like it's the public library and I'm supposed to be quiet and not hassle anyone. |
I agree! Isn't that what Jesus did?
oh,sorry, it didn't end very well for him, either, did it. . .?
Merle |
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Remnant
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 02, 2005
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | Remnant wrote: |
There are some heavy duty applecarts that need to be tossed over and let the red rolly things go where they may. I am sick of treating this world like it's the public library and I'm supposed to be quiet and not hassle anyone. |
I agree! Isn't that what Jesus did?
oh,sorry, it didn't end very well for him, either, did it. . .?
Merle |
It did make his name a household word.
I'm not modeling it after what he did anyway. We just need to keep at it until it works.
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According to the scales, I am going to be living on birdseed and carrot sticks for the next 20 years. |
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shadexiii
Tanuki
Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 4013
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: |
Did you ever see the movie Clerks......if so,remember the line..."I wasnt even supposed to be here today." Thats pretty much how I feel. |
I only skimmed over the thread, should have read it all but I really must attempt sleep soon and I wanted to get my thoughts down before that. The Clerks quote is one I've thought was appropriate for how I feel about things for quite some time.
As for suicide, and other people saying one shouldn't, that's a difficult issue. I've tried to stop people in the past, I've succeeded. Why did I try to stop them? Well, part of it was selfish, there's no denying that. I didn't want to lose them. It wasn't simply that though. I didn't want them to remain alive solely for my benefit. Suicide is a very permanent "solution" to what may be a temporary problem. As such, it is my opinion that if someone is considering it, they should take the time to think about it as thoroughly as possible. You can't change your answer if you succeed.
(I'm not sure I like that phrasing, I have never considered "successful" suicide attempt to be something that sounds "right." I don't view it as a success.)
I've been suicidal at times in the past. Couple reasons I didn't go through with it, even though I was as far as having the blade out and on my wrist. One, sure, I was scared. Two, guilt. I felt I was doing something selfish. I figured that it would be wrong to put my family through that.
Now, I'm glad I didn't go through with it, because I know that things can get better. That may not seem like the case, but just as you could have something horrible randomly happen to you tomorrow, something really good could happen randomly as well. Bottom line, you just don't know. You may have a really bad feeling about it, that I understand, I do right now, and I have frequently before. That doesn't mean you will turn out to be right.
Sure, it can be a vicious cycle of having bad things happen, getting down, and as a result of that having things continue to go badly. Just one random "good" thing can give you a boost to keep going, or even to want to keep going. It may not be enough to turn your life around, but it can prove to you that the world isn't simply a steaming pile that you're forced to sink deeper into every day of your life.
As such, suicide is a guarantee of one thing and one thing only, at least in my mind. It won't get worse. It won't get better. It won't change at all. It will simply end. I understand the appeal of that, but I don't view it as a "good" solution as there's no telling what good things you might miss out on as a result of it. |
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Remnant
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 02, 2005
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Conversely, permanent solutions often involve some form of suicide.
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According to the scales, I am going to be living on birdseed and carrot sticks for the next 20 years. |
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0_equals_true
Quack!
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 4311
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: |
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I make a distinction between the suicidal morbidity you can get in depression and euthanasia. I've known a fair few depressed suicidal people and talked out a number of them. I don't have clinical depression myself. But I do understand mental illness, been through that and my friends are 'mentals' too. The suicidal episode is like a bubble. It is very hard for the person to realise what is going on. Ordinarily is actually very hard for someone to think about killing themselves and do it. They need the morbidity. It doesn't necessarily have much to do with the reality other than the terrible thing depression is. The clue is the morbidity doesn't have to be suicidal depressed people can get morbid thoughts of all kinds.
I my self have only thought of death in a long term way. I have never been suicidal depressed. But that doesn't mean I haven't thought of killing myself. I had a hard struggle trying to figure out the various problems that I had. The medical profession was very stubborn and ignorant. So far I've been right. I made a lot of progress. I do have some things that make living sort of good. However I do have some problems, which just might have the slightest chance of being rectified. It is really unknown as always. That is the horrible things. I fear degenerating further. It is fundamentally at odds with who I am. So if things don't work out in the longs time I will have to think if it is worth me being here at all. It is very conscientious thing and I’m very ambitious so I was to succeed even more. But if it is not going to happen I would never rule out self euthanasia. I'm not morbid so I don't think about my actual death. That is very hard, so that is something that I will come to if I’ve had enough. It is a rational thing really. I believe it is every person’s human right. I hope that made sense. |
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Prof_Pretorius
troubled Soul
Joined: Aug 21, 2006
Age: 50
Posts: 4414
Location: Hiding in the attic of the Arkham Library
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:17 am Post subject: |
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This subject certainly strikes a chord among us, doesn't it? I've had suicidal thoughts in the past. I recall being in a doctor's office back when I was in Uni, and he had a plant poisoning chart on the wall(!!) I ran my finger down the chart to least number of side-effects and most potent poison. I don't recall the plant, but there you go, herbal suicide. I've never attempted. I had a dear mate, we went through all sorts of adventures together. He and I were best of chums. He sobered up, and became a good 'sponsor' in AA. But he could never get a GF. He was a homely sort of chap, but a heart of gold. After being disappointed by a woman again back in '94, he blew his brains out. At his funeral, there were prolly over 75 people from AA, all of whom he had personally helped at one time or another. One of the saddest funerals I've ever been to. I miss him to this day ....
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I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I feel my fate in what I cannot fear. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke |
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shadexiii
Tanuki
Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 4013
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| 0_equals_true wrote: | | I make a distinction between the suicidal morbidity you can get in depression and euthanasia. |
That's an important distinction that I had failed to make and only thought about later. I would have a much harder time arguing with someone (because, let's be honest, that's usually what it is) in an attempt to get them to not view suicide as the best option if it was more along the lines of euthanasia and due to a terminal (physical) illness. Especially if the person were later in their years and had already, in their mind, lived a very full life. At that point it would be very difficult for me to view it as something more than me selfishly trying to get them to "hang around a bit longer" for my own benefit. Especially if in doing so they would be subjected to unimaginable physical pain.
Yes, psychological pain can have physical consequences. Yes, psychological issues (I don't like the view of them as illnesses for some reason or another, never liked the whole "That person is sick" phrasing) can be lifelong, and incurable. It may even be quite difficult to treat said issues. I don't like the idea of just giving up on it. I don't like accepting defeat for myself, and I don't like to see others give up when I believe it could be possible for them to "get through" a difficult spot in their life, and potentially get a lot of enjoyment out of life later down the line, be it in days, months, or even years.
While the same could be said for physical ailments, that one could keep trying different (or the same) treatment regimens, for some reason or another I simply don't view them in the same way.
| Prof_Pretorius wrote: | | I had a dear mate, we went through all sorts of adventures together. He and I were best of chums. He sobered up, and became a good 'sponsor' in AA. But he could never get a GF. He was a homely sort of chap, but a heart of gold. After being disappointed by a woman again back in '94, he blew his brains out. |
I'm really hoping that this won't be taken badly, as I really don't want to offend and I fear that I still might, but this is why I simply do not, can not, and will not allow myself to own a gun. From time to time I do enjoy going to a shooting range and doing some target practice, but when I'm not at my best, specifically when I'm at my worst, especially if I have been drinking, I really do not trust myself around a firearm. I just think that, at least for myself, I would be more likely to do something like that if there were such a "quick" way to do it.
That being said, the description you gave of what you and your friend went through, specifically what he went through, does scare me a bit, as I fear I may be rather susceptible to winding up on that same path. People I know seem to come to me for help, and I'm not entirely sure why. I feel like my life is a complete mess most of the time, yet they, for some strange reason, think I'd be the person to go to for help with life. It can be rather frustrating in that my advice, if it can be called that, seems to frequently help these people out, yet when I'm stuck in the same position, trying to figure out how I should handle a situation that I am in, I'm absolutely clueless. There's some sort of disconnect there, where when it is someone else, I can treat it more like some sort of problem, equation-like thing, trying to figure out all of the variables that I'm aware of and figuring out some sort of numerical answer. When I'm 'in it' (thank you Zach Braff), I'm at a complete loss. |
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Starr
Phoenix
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Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 4216
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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So sorry to hear about your mate, Prof. That's such a sad story.
| Quote: | | shadexiii - I just think that, at least for myself, I would be more likely to do something like that if there were such a "quick" way to do it. |
I agree. I'm glad they don't make quick and painless suicide pills. I wouldn't trust myself with them. I'd be OK 999.999% of the time, but I wouldn't chance a depressive mood sneaking up on me.
Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said he could never stand too near the edge of a railway platform in case he got the urge to jump in front of a train. |
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Prof_Pretorius
troubled Soul
Joined: Aug 21, 2006
Age: 50
Posts: 4414
Location: Hiding in the attic of the Arkham Library
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| shadexiii wrote: |
That being said, the description you gave of what you and your friend went through, specifically what he went through, does scare me a bit, as I fear I may be rather susceptible to winding up on that same path. People I know seem to come to me for help, and I'm not entirely sure why. I feel like my life is a complete mess most of the time, yet they, for some strange reason, think I'd be the person to go to for help with life. It can be rather frustrating in that my advice, if it can be called that, seems to frequently help these people out, yet when I'm stuck in the same position, trying to figure out how I should handle a situation that I am in, I'm absolutely clueless. There's some sort of disconnect there, where when it is someone else, I can treat it more like some sort of problem, equation-like thing, trying to figure out all of the variables that I'm aware of and figuring out some sort of numerical answer. When I'm 'in it' (thank you Zach Braff), I'm at a complete loss. |
What you're describing is rather close to the way my chum was. He was so kind to people in AA, that he would allow them to stay with him in his apartment if they were down and out. He'd literally shelter and feed them, and help them stay sober. He did this many times, and the people were helped, and did get back on their feet. But the one problem he couldn't solve was having a GF. I honestly don't know why. I don't think he was on the spectrum, although he may have been. He had a steady job, a nice apartment, a car, and seemed quite happy with his lot in life. But he craved a love relationship, couldn't get one, and ended up killing himself.
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I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I feel my fate in what I cannot fear. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke |
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shadexiii
Tanuki
Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 4013
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Prof_Pretorius wrote: |
What you're describing is rather close to the way my chum was. He was so kind to people in AA, that he would allow them to stay with him in his apartment if they were down and out. He'd literally shelter and feed them, and help them stay sober. He did this many times, and the people were helped, and did get back on their feet. But the one problem he couldn't solve was having a GF. I honestly don't know why. I don't think he was on the spectrum, although he may have been. He had a steady job, a nice apartment, a car, and seemed quite happy with his lot in life. But he craved a love relationship, couldn't get one, and ended up killing himself. |
heh, great, got a bit of a cold chill through my body while reading this.
I recently let a guy stay with me for about five months. He claimed to be going through a difficult time with a fiancee that eventually ended, he had no job, he claimed she got rid of a bunch of his things. He had planned to stay with other people in the building, but wound up on my couch and didn't leave. Then stuff started disappearing. Some money from my place, and from others. I didn't think it was him, he seemed nice enough, honest enough. He did things for me around the apartment while I was in class. Eventually it simply was way too suspicious of what all was going on, so when he left I was relieved, until a friend of mine told me that stuff went missing from his place while the guy was over there. That cemented it for me.
I'm having difficulty finding a job, still being supported by my parents. Only been in one relationship that was a disaster. Short, and not so sweet. Currently, I'm visiting the one person that I am either in love with or obsessed with, for various reasons I'm not entirely comfortable discussing (why I'm visiting, not why for the other). I feel like a pet at times. She stayed in my apartment for a little while as well at one point. Unlike the guy, she wound up sleeping on the bed while I took the couch.
I should be happy with my lot in life, I have most things provided for me. I've got a couple of people I consider very good friends, and I don't mind not having dozens of friends. The biggest issue has always been relationships, I suppose.
That, and it seems like the advice that is asked for is generally pertaining to relationships. When given the time to think about it, and the ability to see it from an outside position, I can kind of reason stuff out, or at the least fake it well enough. Half the time it is asking the person what they just asked me, sometimes saying "Well why would they do that?" Some times I don't even know what the answer would be, frequently really, but they get that prodding to think about it, to try and get outside of their head and into the head of their partner, and it works. Almost like all they needed was a push to do that. I can barely do that when talking with others, I can rarely if ever do it for myself. I find myself asking (when I can manage to force myself to do it) what this person or that person was thinking, why they were acting in this way, to people I know just as they have asked me, and they just respond with "I don't know." or "That's how they are."
I'm not really comfortable around people, most people. At the same time seeing someone upset bothers me, and I'm not entirely sure why. I think it was conditioning from my parents. So I force myself to get through it to try and help them get through it. I'm left feeling exhausted, at times not all that appreciated, and at times frustrated that somehow I can make things work for others, but not myself. I honestly think the whole relationship issue is the focus in my life for some odd reason. I can't think of a good way to phrase it, but just having someone there seems very appealing to me at this point in my life, and for some reason has for a good amount of my life, even though I'm only 22, 23 later this year. I'm not in amazing shape, which doesn't help that I'm sure, but I've been working on it. Though I've often been called weird or odd, and being quiet or being alone in my bedroom while other people are in my living room of my apartment (while I lived there) would confuse people (felt somewhat overwhelmed) I think people in general manage to get along with me. Again, think that could be due to parents conditioning. Things only get bad when I get drunk, like recently when I barely remember repeatedly punching metal siding. Was frustrated, the person I'm visiting was doing something that made me feel like I was wasting my time here, and that I had no influence on the situation, and I don't do well talking with people about such things, so if I'm really drunk I usually just hit inanimate objects. (I think that's my alternative to banging my head against a wall.)
That being said, I don't have any complete confirmation that I genuinely have AS, which in some ways bothers me more with you saying that he was possibly not on the spectrum. I believe it is a good possibility that I do, and I've had a guy I went to high school with say that it sounded like a strong possibility, but never a shrink. Then again, I don't fully trust shrinks and their diagnoses, especially if they aren't well informed about Autism. (Why test if you don't even know it could be a possibility?) The guy from high school and I also have the issue that we both studied psychology in college. Him as a supplement for managerial training, me because I wanted to know what the hell was going on with people. ( I think that might have helped with the advice as well.) While that can be informative, and give insight, there's also issues with having too much information.
OK, I've rambled on enough, I've derailed the thread pretty well, and I think I've said more about myself than I'm generally comfortable with.... |
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