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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 1348
Location: in the They
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 Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of thoughts-
1) on all the evolutionary phychology crap- If homo sapiens dies, it will be because we've killed ourselves en masse via environmental catastrophy, not because we've failed on any individual level to reproduce.
While these sorts of observations might- might- have some validity in explaining what people are attracted to and why-
We do have some, if not perfect, control over what we desire, who we chase, and why.
2) on the "neg"-
While the article posted gives some of the most innocuous example possible of this technique, in practice it is not nearly so clean.
In an ideal sense, a neg would just be some indication that one is not tripping over one's feet to get to a certian partner- it would be some action that effectively gives them a bit of space, perhaps makes them think they have to do a bit of chasing to keep things going.
Realistically though- and this guy isn't the only one to have documented the technique- it ranges into subtile, or even severe, attacks on the target's self esteem.
I think in order to do it well, someone would have to have some understanding of how to use it badly. . . and in order to be ok with someone doing it to me, I'd have to be very, very sure they would never, ever use it to hurt anyone.
Seduction, when it comes down to it. . . it used to be my thing. Not anymore.
I don't reccomend it. |
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gwenevyn
asdf forever
Joined: May 07, 2007
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Jainaday wrote: |
While the article posted gives some of the most innocuous example possible of this technique, in practice it is not nearly so clean.
In an ideal sense, a neg would just be some indication that one is not tripping over one's feet to get to a certian partner- it would be some action that effectively gives them a bit of space, perhaps makes them think they have to do a bit of chasing to keep things going.
Realistically though- and this guy isn't the only one to have documented the technique- it ranges into subtile, or even severe, attacks on the target's self esteem. |
But the latter kind is ultimately counter-productive. I know some guys do it, but that's not what I'm advocating here.
| Quote: | | I think in order to do it well, someone would have to have some understanding of how to use it badly. . . and in order to be ok with someone doing it to me, I'd have to be very, very sure they would never, ever use it to hurt anyone. |
I don't think it needs to be thought of in such a deliberate way. If a guy just focuses on keeping relaxed and not revealing too much too soon, that's perfect. It's a sort of neg, because the other person is wondering for a while... but it's healthy and genuine.
eta: There are quite a few aspies on this site who (unwittingly or not) practice this very successfully. |
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TheMachine1
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Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 9092
Location: 9099 will be my last post...what the hell 9011 will be.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Jainaday wrote: | A couple of thoughts-
1) on all the evolutionary phychology crap- If homo sapiens dies, it will be because we've killed ourselves en masse via environmental catastrophy, not because we've failed on any individual level to reproduce.
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That might be true for the future but the evolutionary psychology "crap" explains how we got in this situation in the first place. Most
of human history it was a major struggle to reproduce.
Someone like Bill Clinton is very charismatic, likable person , and a successful person. But he was also a deceptive person and a serial womaniser to. No fundemental difference in him and the player in the artical. |
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gwenevyn
asdf forever
Joined: May 07, 2007
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TheMachine1 wrote: |
Someone like Bill Clinton is very charismatic, likable person , and a successful person. But he was also a deceptive person and a serial womaniser to. No fundemental difference in him and the player in the artical. |
But I think those of us who are not deceptive can learn from what we see others do. Not in the same way and not for the same ends, but to help us figure out how to make others comfortable around us. |
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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 1348
Location: in the They
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Even the plague didn't wipe out more than a third of the population at a time. We're a good two thousand years past the "get laid or go extinct" phase. A blink of the eye in evolutionary time, I understand, but in an individual context- we have choices. It's time to make them. Get over it.
I would also posit that there is a serious difference between Clinton, who, besides being a womanizer, had a central focus to his life (political career) that happened to contribute to his ability to womanize- and anyone who makes their living out of teaching others how to more easily manipulate their way into sex. |
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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 1348
Location: in the They
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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I said-
Realistically though- and this guy isn't the only one to have documented the technique- it ranges into subtile, or even severe, attacks on the target's self esteem.
Gwenevyn said-
But the latter kind is ultimately counter-productive. I know some guys do it, but that's not what I'm advocating here.
It's possible to keep relationships going for years this way. Obviously, not without some cooperation, but it still makes a very bad scene.
Ultimately counter-productive? It depends on one's goals. If the goal is easy, ready sex, I don't think so.
If the goal is a real relationship- yes, counter-productive obviously.
I don't mean that the technique is always bad; just that I wouldn't trust anyone who is particularly good at using it intentionally unless I had a lot of evidence that they knew- and very strongly, intentionally, wanted to avoid- the kind of harm it could cause. |
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Pugly
Man-child diligently becoming a Dude, man
Joined: Jan 10, 2005
Age: 26
Posts: 2567
Location: Wisonsin
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| gwenevyn wrote: | I think you might be misunderstanding what the "neg" is. It's not a lie. It's merely disclosing information slowly, I think.  The guy isn't expressing dislike, he's just doing his best not to be awkward. If anything, he's being more himself, in the example given, than if he'd polished himself up for her sake.
And joking around with a girl isn't feigning disinterest. It's a polite way of conveying the possibility of an interest. Since it isn't an explicit admission (after all, it could very well just be fun interaction between friends), it allows both parties to save face, to have time to think about what they want, and to get to know each other as the attraction builds. |
I guess all this just requires a healthy understanding of what is expected or not expected. But the ambiguity in these sort of situations can drive some insane... it's not all fun.
But not generaly caring how someone thinks of you... or at least not tweaking the way you are acting to hide all of your negative qualities... is good advice. Of course I wonder how effect a fart is as a 'neg'... 
| gwenevyn wrote: | | I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right. I mean, it really shouldn't involve "changing yourself" to suit someone's tastes. I guess you could think of it as being like saying "please" and "thank you"--that doesn't come easily to some people, but the use of those terms can soften others toward the speaker. I don't think that makes it manipulative. |
I haven't really thought about it like that... it's always difficult for me to accept the polite things I am supposed to do when they don't make any sense to me. Especially in this case... because to me it doesn't seem like a good way to act but what society has grown to expect.
| gwenevyn wrote: | | But I think those of us who are not deceptive can learn from what we see others do. Not in the same way and not for the same ends, but to help us figure out how to make others comfortable around us. |
It always feels to me that I shouldn't have to use the same methods as the deceptive people... I try to distance myself from them as much as possible. I do see where it can be useful... you want people to believe you for the right reasons... use the same methods as those who actually succed at it. I start becomeing bitter when I think that the world is a place where my ideal way of presenting myself... doesn't work.
I have an idealized way I'd like to act and the way I appear myself... and I am generally not strong in changing myself to get others to view me in the same way I view myself. Lack of Theory of Mind... tricky stuff.
_________________
I hate so much about the things that you choose to be.
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TheMachine1
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Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 9092
Location: 9099 will be my last post...what the hell 9011 will be.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Jainaday wrote: | | t- we have choices. It's time to make them. Get over it. |
Real choice implies free will and free will is an illusion of DNA. The future is hopelessly bound by the past.
| Jainaday wrote: |
I would also posit that there is a serious difference between Clinton, who, besides being a womanizer, had a central focus to his life (political career) that happened to contribute to his ability to womanize- and anyone who makes their living out of teaching others how to more easily manipulate their way into sex. |
Politics is the ultimate manipulation game. Bill Clinton could sweet talk the pants off a women if he was in a homeless shelter though. |
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gwenevyn
asdf forever
Joined: May 07, 2007
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Pugly wrote: |
I haven't really thought about it like that... it's always difficult for me to accept the polite things I am supposed to do when they don't make any sense to me. Especially in this case... because to me it doesn't seem like a good way to act but what society has grown to expect. |
Well, I haven't read all this guy's "teachings" (beyond the linked article), so I really can't speak for all of it. Much of it probably isn't good. I don't know.
But what I'm trying to say is that it's unnecessary and even sometimes damaging to lay all your cards on the table at once. Leaving a little mystery and room for flirtation is nice not for manipulative reasons, but because you thereby avoid putting unnecessary pressure on anybody to behave according to a certain model of behavior. I think the idea behind some of his suggestions is more along the lines of "let's abandon all these preconceived notions and methods that don't work well" not "let's behave exactly like this." (or if that's not his idea, I think it ought to have been )
We change our behaviors to accomodate other people's wishes all the time. I don't see how that act automatically becomes sinister when applied to romance. |
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TheMachine1
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Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 9092
Location: 9099 will be my last post...what the hell 9011 will be.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| gwenevyn wrote: |
Well, I haven't read all this guy's "teachings" (beyond the linked article), so I really can't speak for all of it. Much of it probably isn't good. I don't know.
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His advice will help other manipulators improve their skills but its unlikely to be much benefit to the average man. His whole self-help advice business is merely another con job on the men this time rather than on his female he victimise as his hobby.
Last edited by TheMachine1 on Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pugly
Man-child diligently becoming a Dude, man
Joined: Jan 10, 2005
Age: 26
Posts: 2567
Location: Wisonsin
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| gwenevyn wrote: | | But what I'm trying to say is that it's unnecessary and even sometimes damaging to lay all your cards on the table at once. Leaving a little mystery and room for flirtation is nice not for manipulative reasons, but because you thereby avoid putting unnecessary pressure on anybody to behave according to a certain model of behavior. I think the idea behind some of his suggestions is more along the lines of "let's abandon all these preconceived notions and methods that don't work well" not "let's behave exactly like this." (or if that's not his idea, I think it ought to have been ) |
Ah, I guess I never viewed leaving mystery and an unknown quantity out there as being beneficial. To me the more knowledge I have the better... I just assumed this was the case with others as well.
Or that by me acting a certain way it actually puts pressure and expectations on others. Flirting always seemed to introduce more pressure... more unknowns... more conflicting ideas and feelings. It never seemed a way to facilitate the finding of your true feelings. I never thought anything I do actualy puts pressure on people.
I like just finding what works though... that's a good goal to have.
| gwenevyn wrote: | | We change our behaviors to accomodate other people's wishes all the time. I don't see how that act automatically becomes sinister when applied to romance. |
Nice sociable people do... I don't... not well at least. And it's not sinister... I just find it difficult... and sometimes reprehensible.
_________________
I hate so much about the things that you choose to be.
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gwenevyn
asdf forever
Joined: May 07, 2007
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Pugly wrote: |
Ah, I guess I never viewed leaving mystery and an unknown quantity out there as being beneficial. To me the more knowledge I have the better... I just assumed this was the case with others as well. |
Oh, I don't mean mystery about the individual's personality, values, goals, etc.
I mean mystery about the the person's romantic feelings.
Sorry for being unclear. The alternative interpretation didn't occur to me.
| Quote: | Or that by me acting a certain way it actually puts pressure and expectations on others. Flirting always seemed to introduce more pressure... more unknowns... more conflicting ideas and feelings. It never seemed a way to facilitate the finding of your true feelings. I never thought anything I do actualy puts pressure on people.
I like just finding what works though... that's a good goal to have. |
Yeah, and that changes from girl to girl.
Feelings are confusing for everybody though. Conversation (playful or otherwise) gives the opportunity to make sense of those feelings before making a decision.
| Quote: | | gwenevyn wrote: | | We change our behaviors to accomodate other people's wishes all the time. I don't see how that act automatically becomes sinister when applied to romance. |
Nice sociable people do... I don't... not well at least. And it's not sinister... I just find it difficult... and sometimes reprehensible. |
Definitely difficult. That's probably one thing we all have in common.
But I think that with the right person, it's probably easier than with others. |
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Pugly
Man-child diligently becoming a Dude, man
Joined: Jan 10, 2005
Age: 26
Posts: 2567
Location: Wisonsin
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| gwenevyn wrote: |
Oh, I don't mean mystery about the individual's personality, values, goals, etc.
I mean mystery about the the person's romantic feelings.
Sorry for being unclear. The alternative interpretation didn't occur to me. |
Knowledge is knowledge as far as I'm concerned. Of course I am one to go and look into a magician's bag of tricks.
| gwenevyn wrote: | Yeah, and that changes from girl to girl.
Feelings are confusing for everybody though. Conversation (playful or otherwise) gives the opportunity to make sense of those feelings before making a decision. |
I agree... I guess it's all about what approach creates the most opportunity for conversation. But once I have strong feelings... I don't really question them. Well my thinking side may disregard them... but I don't flip-flop once they are set. Well sometimes that happens... 
| gwenevyn wrote: | Definitely difficult. That's probably one thing we all have in common.
But I think that with the right person, it's probably easier than with others. |
If you care about someone, changing is definitely good. Knowing what you should change to... that's the hard part.
_________________
I hate so much about the things that you choose to be.
Last edited by Pugly on Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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juliekitty
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
Posts: 1721
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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It wasn't until I found out about the "neg" that I understood why goofballs thought they'd be able to get somewhere with me by acting like jerks.
I still say any woman who falls for that stuff has low self-esteem. |
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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 1348
Location: in the They
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Not necessarily.
It can be refreshing not to be chased.
It only starts to suck when you realize that you respect the guy's opinion and he's using that. . . essentially to use you. |
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