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| Make marijuana legal |
| No, it is the flower of satan. |
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4% |
[ 9 ] |
| No, it is the flower of satan. |
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4% |
[ 9 ] |
| Yes, but limited like cigarettes, and taxed like hell |
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18% |
[ 35 ] |
| Yes, but limited like cigarettes, and taxed like hell |
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18% |
[ 35 ] |
| No, what would the poor innercity kids do for money |
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1% |
[ 3 ] |
| No, what would the poor innercity kids do for money |
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1% |
[ 3 ] |
| Yes, liiike totally, Dude. Right on. "Free Mary Jane." |
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23% |
[ 44 ] |
| Yes, liiike totally, Dude. Right on. "Free Mary Jane." |
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23% |
[ 44 ] |
| Don't know, dont care. let me take care of my munchies and cotton mouth, i will get back to ya. |
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1% |
[ 2 ] |
| Don't know, dont care. let me take care of my munchies and cotton mouth, i will get back to ya. |
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1% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 186 |
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psych
OTTer
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 1980
Location: w london
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 Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Remnant wrote: | | If so, this reflects the stereotyping and rigid thinking of the people who brought up children who are AS. Have you seen more than a trace of racism among AS people? That would seem to be the perfect example of stereotyping and rigid thinking, yet it is conspicuously absent. The writings I have read here seem to indicate an ability to think more clearly than most and more freely. |
Well i agree people here do have a great potential to think clearly and freely 'outside the box'. My point is that in some people this potential is not realised and in some that systemic way of thinking can even backfire.
Your point about racism is interesting. I suppose one possible reason is that racism is based on emotional flaws & simple predujice and so the subject is less seductive to an aspies analytical mind. Drug legislation however, has a wealth of pseudo-scientific research & facts and figures behind it which a systemic mind can use to develop opinons.
I am not the best person to judge, because of the cultural abyss between the US and EU. I dont know how common such intolerant views on drugs are in US society, over here they seem mostly confined to the 50+ age group. In fact AG has unknowingly paraphrased my grandmother several times, almost word for word 
| Quote: |
The people who I am complaining about follow certain programs that wind up destroying a lot of people. You might say that I am employing stereotyping and whatever, but I have seen them perform these tricks dozens of times and destroy a lot of productive discussions. How can you tell people that such and such is false when you have all these people destroying the discussion? Everything that I want to talk about affects a multi-billion dollar industry, and we are aware of how many people have been blatantly murdered to support such industries as the diamond and oil cartels, or even access to farmland and lebensraum. A lot of this is so recent that we can't even realistically expect any breaks in the continuity. The murder of South Africans for the sake of industrial interests officially ended about the time that South Africans voted Nelson Mandela in, and of course we suck up to the Chinese big time while they blatantly murder a lot of people and harvest their organs. So what kind of mental illness would it take to even entertain the thought that there might be hired guns who get on the Internet to interfere with productive discussion? |
I understand what your saying, but i think 90% of the time people are genuinely unaware that their using underhand debating tricks or spreading disinformation and biased industrial propaganda.
Thats the way the powerful operate - they cant physically manipulate billions of people, so through media they program us to manipulate ourselves and each other. The best example of this is the instinct to ridicule or attack anyone who expresses a different opinion from the norm, without pause for thought. The fear of this threat causes us, unknowingly to gradually think or act in a constrained way.
To paraphrase David Icke;
We laugh at a flock of sheep, but really we've managed to outsheep the sheep. At least they need a sheep-dog to herd them about the place. We now do that to ourselves. |
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Remnant
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 02, 2005
Posts: 2019
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Bullied don't much care where they get their tricks. They just like to use them.
I do not know if any nation has become so totally screwed about individual freedoms. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6131
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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[quote=psych]
Yes. thats exactly what i said Rolling Eyes
So what. are you saying my personal views on spirituality are worthless simply because i dont subscribe to one of the established/organised religions? Its a PERSONAL issue. People have used drugs including cannabis religiously for MILLENIA, long before your precious laws were cooked up.
I dont NEED to deal with your ignorance, authoritarian fixation and dictatorial rhetoric. I am doing so because i am a tolerant and respectful person. - by which i mean respectful of nature & PEOPLE, not arbitrary legislation. [/quote]
Well, considering that I consider the law extremely important I would not defy it for something so stupid as a discussion and a dare. I do think it is wrong for you to tell people to defy the institutes that be so pointlessly.
Yes, your views of religion/spirituallity can be considered to be worthless because you have no political power or even legitimate sounding claim to have these drugs. I can make up my own religion too and say that I need cocaine in order to practice my religion and simply do this for the desire to have cocaine. People have also practiced human sacrifice for a millenia before my laws were cooked up. However, human sacrifice is deemed illegal by my laws and cannot be allowed even for religious purposes. People have used drugs for religious ceremonies for years and this is simply because they probably smoked something and felt "oh I feel the holy being! when it was probably some delusion brought on by drug abuse". I really don't even support drug use for religion and would make the catholics use some form of non-alcoholic wine or grape juice or make sure consumption is controlled and heavily limited or something and I respect christianity and know that the purpose of the ritual has to do with the blood of Jesus.
You are right, you don't actually need to deal with any rhetoric. I don't even have to listen to your points either and your libertarian beliefs I am the one who chooses to stay though, you can do the same if you'd like. Legislation is to respected at least in the aspect of obeying it, you have the legal right to exert whatever political influence you have to repeal it but so do the forces that oppose you.
| Quote: | Unfortunately an expression of AS in many people seems to be stereotyping and rigid thinking. The ability to focus acutely becomes a disability when its allowed to develop unchecked into lazy stubborness.
I think this phenomena has become increasingly obvious on this topic. AS sufferers tend not to socialize widely, therefore many never get exposed to drug culture IRL. The predisposition to stubborness often means they cant (or wont) reconcile their media-based view with the reality-based one related by more experienced posters. |
Actually I have met some people who do use marijuana. They were some of the most irresponsible people I have ever met and would frequently brag about the stupid stuff they did. They would have problems passing many of their classes despite the fact that they seemed relatively capable if they had focused. I possibly could have tried out the drug but I remember this one guy insisted that I not do it so that I wouldn't mess up my life. Perhaps it is a situation where correlation does not mean causation but everyone I have ever met who used marijuana has been more irresponsible than average and they all seem to underperform in some manner. One person simply described marijuana as a replacement for beer because it lacks the hangover. Everyone I have known who has used marijuana probably could have been a better person if they had not used marijuana. However, it was not my place to fight the people I barely know without law or force backing me.
| Quote: | To paraphrase David Icke;
We laugh at a flock of sheep, but really we've managed to outsheep the sheep. At least they need a sheep-dog to herd them about the place. We now do that to ourselves. |
Well, not needing a sheep dog is cost effective at the very least.  However, it is only a sign of something if you are the sheep dog. Society always needs a sheep dog because no herd of sheep can perfectly run itself.
[quote=Remnant] The people who do this are more of the same people who murdered me when I was a child. They are murderers, by proxy, maybe by actual commission, and definitely by gathering in groups to destroy anyone who has the least bit of virtue in this world. [/quote]
I don't really know what you are talking about. It seems like a rant, however the last part seems odd because you have to technically be alive and therefore cannot be described as "murdered". I guess it could be figurative language but I don't know what it would refer to.
| Quote: | | So what kind of mental illness would it take to even entertain the thought that there might be hired guns who get on the Internet to interfere with productive discussion? |
Hired guns? Nobody would care about an Aspergers forum discussion. There are not very many people compared to the overall population and most of them do not have much power, especially considering all of the people that talk about being social outcasts and welfare recipients. We are not worth the effort to even consider much less hire somebody to do something especially considering the bigger forums out there. The idea sounds like some level of paranoia. You are not posting while high? No marijuana induced paranoia I hope? Yes, I am joking.
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Destroying reality since the end of time. |
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psych
OTTer
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 1980
Location: w london
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | ...People have used drugs for religious ceremonies for years and this is simply because they probably smoked something and felt "oh I feel the holy being! when it was probably some delusion brought on by drug abuse"... |
You are obviously ignorant of ethnobotany, endogenous psychedelics and metaphysics (as are most people) If you are interested in learning something on the matter, you may find my comments on this thread enlightening;
http://www.wrongplanet.net/asperger.html?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=8980&highlight=endogenous
Even if you seek to confirm your own bias, id be very intested to see how you could possibly attempt to do so, seeing as how you already stated your respect for christianity! |
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Jetson
The Map Maker
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 1219
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Banning marijuana is not really that horrendous to human health. |
If we include the deaths of innocent people who are caught in the gun-fire when gangs raid grow-ops looking for cash or decide to do a drive-by to kill off some of the competition, then I'd say banning marijuana has a definite impact on human health and public safety.
As far as I'm concerned, the politicians, police and lawyers should try to create and enforce laws in favour of "the greater good". To automatically assume that a ban serves the greater good simply because marijuana is not neccessary for life is a very simplistic point of view. It doesn't balance the dangers of smoking marijuana against the dangers of a highly profitable black market. The dangers of smoking are pretty minor: some people will waste time and kill brain cells, and possibly injure themselves while under the effects. The dangers of a profitable black market is that it attracts a criminal element, and that money is generally reinvested in other criminal enterprises (including terrorism, no doubt). The black market is also a total loss from a taxation point of view, in spite of the occasional seizure of assets. Legalization, on the other hand, provides a distribution channel that is not controlled by criminals and which can be taxed. If properly supplied and regulated, the taxes on marijuana sales would most likely exceed the costs incurred in treatment of those who can't control themselves. My point here is that prohibition doesn't make sense if the goal is to reduce crime. As long as there is demand, any attempt to choke off the supply will only raise the profit margins on the remaining supplies -- the cash flow will remain constant no matter how many distributors are put in jail because the economics of scarcity will drive the prices up. Would you advocate lowering the use of oil by blowing up a few refineries? All that would do is cause prices at the pump to rise. If you want people to change their habits you need to offer incentives, not just punishment.
The argument keeps being made that "alcohol was illegal before, so there's nothing wrong with marijuana being illegal now", to which I would say "those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it." When you think about it, alcohol and marijuana are essentially identical in every respect. Both have a limited medical benefit. Both are abused. Prohibition of either leads to criminal activity. Legalization of either leads to control of the distribution channel and revenue for the government. The other thing to consider is quality control. We constantly hear warnings about the bad things (like crystal meth) that dealers are putting into their joints to try and get people hooked on stronger (more profitable) drugs. When's the last time you heard of someone going blind because their bottle of Smirnoff's was cut with wood alcohol? (Hint: Never.) Have you ever bought what you thought was beer, only to find the cans had antifreeze in them? (Answer: No.) If the government is concerned about kids moving from marijuana to harder drugs (which doesn't normally happen unless the dealer is surreptitiously hooking them without their knowledge) then the best solution is to legalize and regulate the production and put verifiable ingredients and quantity/dosage labels on the pack.
Some people worry that if marijuana was legal then kids would smoke it. Again, that assumption requires a non-regulated distribution channel controlled by criminals. The reason you don't see kids carrying a 6-pack of beer to school is because the demand for illegal beer from that age group doesn't justify the expense and risk of starting a criminal organization to provide it, and any such organization wouldn't be seriously interested in such a product because there's no profit in something that can be so easily purchased through a government-approved vendor. Just ask yourself how many bootleggers live in your city versus how many marijuana dealers.... The best way to keep marijuana out of the hands of kids is to put it on the shelf right next to the tobacco and alcohol. Yes, some kids will get their older brother to buy it for them. They do that with beer anyway. Right now, though, any 14-year-old with a few dollars can buy marijuana all by himself.
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Jetson
The Map Maker
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 1219
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Well, ok then, marijuana is linked to failures in education and in the job market. This can be seen in a typical high school because the stoner students are usually somewhere around the bottom of the academic rankings and such. |
Too bad you didn't make any argument as to which is the cause and which is the effect. You are implying that drug use leads to academic failure. It would be just as easy to say that those kids who are intellectually challenged and are not provided with an appropriate learning environment are the ones who are most likely to become demoralized and resort to marijuana to dull the pain of failure. Maybe the marijuana problem is caused by poor education and not the other way around.
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6131
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Well, one thing is that I never stated that I worshipped the Christian God or that I believed Christianity was true. I have not read the Bible, I do not go to Church. I just find that Christianity has a positive affect on virtue and find it useful for that reason. However, Christianity may very well be a bunch of filthy lies by a bunch of drunks/druggies. I do recognize the benefits of a faith though, it calms the soul and does many things. I could go further into my spirituality but I don't wish to at this moment.
Jetson does have some very good arguments. Hmm.... what if we legalized marijuana only under the condition that they had no marijuana content? That sounds good to me. Just joking. However, I think that part of the problem that we have with marijuana is the inconsistent message that we have sent about marijuana and perhaps the after effects of the 60s and 70s where marijuana was used to a great extent. I think it is possible that in the long run the amount of marijuana use can be decreased if more effort is put into fighting it. It wasn't economics that ended slavery, that fought discrimination or anything and a purely economic view usually is not perfect. I don't have a problem giving incentives to help people in a fight against drugs though. Marijuana legalization would help some issues but I think that in the long run it would be the one of the less good options. I won't kill myself if that is what it comes to but I think America can do better.
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Destroying reality since the end of time. |
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Jetson
The Map Maker
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 1219
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| sc wrote: | | If you sell it, its criminal, period. |
I think the point that people have been trying to make that you have ignored is that your reference to absolute criminality is simply circular reasoning. When people ask "is this a good law or a bad law" (as any citizen in a democracy is entitled to do), you tell them that THE LAW IS THE LAW, and therefore breaking the law is breaking the law. While it is normal for many aspies to be ruthlessly honest and blindly obedient, I'd like to think that we still have the right to disagree with the law even as we observe it. Perhaps THE LAW IS THE LAW AND THE LAW IS WRONG.
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6131
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Jetson wrote: |
Too bad you didn't make any argument as to which is the cause and which is the effect. You are implying that drug use leads to academic failure. It would be just as easy to say that those kids who are intellectually challenged and are not provided with an appropriate learning environment are the ones who are most likely to become demoralized and resort to marijuana to dull the pain of failure. Maybe the marijuana problem is caused by poor education and not the other way around. |
Right, well I think that the marijuana is to some extent the cause of this because of the fact that I have seen the kids who use marijuana. I believe that they are capable of the work, I also believe that one of their major problems is that they don't try as hard as they could. However, I did not say that one was cause and one was effect because it is not proven, there is a relationship though. I think that in order to solve this we need to attack the stoner culture to some extent. If a relationship could not be seen then I might not be so adamant, however, marijuana can affect the ability of people to think and such and to stay focused and it sedates them and all of this does bring up the idea that these qualities of marijuana cause undesirable effects in workers both academic and in the market.
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Remnant
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 02, 2005
Posts: 2019
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Why "attack the stoner culture"? It's a culture where people get together to sit back and relax and enjoy some food. There are rarely fights at these parties, whereas alcohol usually inspires at least one fist-fight. They don't bag on people for skin color because they see all colors of the rainbow while high. They don't get together while stoned to decide which gay man or lesbian woman to rape and leave bleeding in a ditch.
Amotivational syndrome? The stoners I knew had good jobs. I was someone who avoided most of the recreational drug use and no one would hire me. The stoners found it easy to get jobs and still do. |
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Remnant
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 02, 2005
Posts: 2019
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Jetson wrote: |
Too bad you didn't make any argument as to which is the cause and which is the effect. You are implying that drug use leads to academic failure. It would be just as easy to say that those kids who are intellectually challenged and are not provided with an appropriate learning environment are the ones who are most likely to become demoralized and resort to marijuana to dull the pain of failure. Maybe the marijuana problem is caused by poor education and not the other way around. |
Right, well I think that the marijuana is to some extent the cause of this because of the fact that I have seen the kids who use marijuana. I believe that they are capable of the work, I also believe that one of their major problems is that they don't try as hard as they could. However, I did not say that one was cause and one was effect because it is not proven, there is a relationship though. I think that in order to solve this we need to attack the stoner culture to some extent. If a relationship could not be seen then I might not be so adamant, however, marijuana can affect the ability of people to think and such and to stay focused and it sedates them and all of this does bring up the idea that these qualities of marijuana cause undesirable effects in workers both academic and in the market. |
It affects the competence and behavior of the observers. If you believe that a student cannot do the work because he is a "nigger", "kike", "wetback" or "wop" then your actions and attitude will affect his work. If you believe that a student is going to excel because he is a genius or an Asian, that student will find himself doing the work easily. It is hard to find a neutral observer just to determine if racial differences exist, not as hard as it used to be. I knew someone who had the highest grade point average who used a lot of pot. You will dismiss that as an exception, but that's part of the problem with the anti-marijuana people. They cook the evidence just that way. They pick and choose the evidence that they will allow to be evaluated.
If a student was "performing" because he was motivated by fear, then the fear is removed by marijuana use, and he changes the way he acts and his grades drop, I think that we should not automatically decide that this is a bad effect. Think it through. A teenager has been forced into a situation, made to fear for his life, and his performance is directly related to how fearful he is that he will be punished for failure. Come on, put yourself in his position. You are threatened. You may very well be murdered if you come home with poor grades. Whether this is literally true or not, you have been deliberately made to feel as if you will die horribly. How many of us know how this feels? I do. Through most of my career at school I felt that way.
Then something comes along and relieves the person's mind of some of the fear. Bear in mind that his entire mental balance has included that fear for so long that he has to have it to maintain, well, his balance. If he had known for certain that this was wrong, it would have helped because he might have been able to do something about it. If he had been taught that the way he felt was right, and that this was the way he should feel, and even that this wasn’t fear he was feeling but “motivation”, then he’s going to have a lot more trouble. He thinks that the only thing that can move him to do anything for himself is that feeling, like a drug, that has been pushing his body into a fight-or-flight response most of his life, every waking hour and a lot of his sleeping hours. If he is relieved of the fear he doesn’t have what once motivated him. At the same time he feels new sensations that he isn’t used to, human sensations like actually feeling the warmth of his own skin. For a little while, he is just himself. Others will say that his behavior and his life have been degraded, and a vital part of him simply knows better.
Those who find themselves at peace with the new sensations do much better. I could not because my mother, every time she found me acting as if I was alive, would beat it out of me, if not with fists, with words and death threats. There was a lot of this going around. The awakening of sensation only made things worse for me because they motivated her to increase her abuse and drive me crazy. She also had the psychiatrist use drugs on me. At no point was she willing to give me a chance to attempt to define my own life. Any time she “allowed” this was just the lead-up to another opportunity to crush me.
To this day it was the street drugs that messed me up, not the manipulation, not the crushing and destruction of myself, not the death threats, and definitely not the psychiatric drugging. There is the result of attacking the “stoner lifestyle.” These attacks really are simply destroying people because you don’t like something they are doing, and they are criminally motivated. |
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Mithrandir
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 19, 2004
Age: 22
Posts: 608
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think I stated the same hypothesis way back in this thread:
The reason why marijuanna is illegal is because the tobacco companies wanted to lower their competition.
Many of us say "I believe" because on a personal level we despise or love a substance.
How can we possible make everyone content?
Easy, we have places where people can smoke marijuanna and places where they cant.
Lets have a regulated bonfire with marijuanna inside a large warehouse. People can drop in if they want.
Where I live, cigarettes are banned in all public places. Even someplaces in a park.
At first there was an outcry but eventially everyone loved it.
Its strange how fines affect people worse then jail.
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Remnant
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 02, 2005
Posts: 2019
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't be so sure. The tobacco companies would just start selling marijuana in prepackaged cigarettes if it were legal.
Hempseed oil has to be expensive if it is imported, but it would be literally dirt cheap if it were produced domestically. I could buy hempseed oil now and run an engine with it, but it would still be more expensive than using diesel fuel. If I were allowed to grow it and I had a small farm, I could satisfy all of my fuel needs with it if I had all diesel engines and an oil furnace. It may seem like sort of a lot of work to do that, but how many hours would I have to slave away in a factory to pay for home heat at $400 to $800 a month? The oil companies want that money from me and they would kill me, my family, and a lot of Iraqis to get it. |
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psych
OTTer
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 1980
Location: w london
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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These are quotes from Harry J. Anslinger, the man directly responsible for cannabis prohibition;
"You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother."
"marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."
"Marijuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing." - bit if a U-turn there!
"Marihuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."
"Marijuana is taken by ... musicians. And I'm not speaking about good musicians, but the jazz type." 
"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men."
"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others. The primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races." |
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Tekneek
Toucan
Joined: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 257
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Remnant wrote: | | I wouldn't be so sure. The tobacco companies would just start selling marijuana in prepackaged cigarettes if it were legal. |
At least it would generate tax revenue then, instead of spending tax revenue (on the War against drugs). |
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