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Nomaken
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 10, 2005
Posts: 2059
Location: 31726 Windsor, Garden City, Michigan, 48135
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: "Jesus dying for our sins." |
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Who thinks this was important? Or impressive? Or hard?
Because seriously, if me and a bunch of other people are all standing around thinking, "Hey, we need 1 guy to die for all of our sins, we got any volunteers?" I'd probably be pretty close to the front of the line. Doesn't seem like a big sacrifice knowing there is existance post death. I mean, yeah, crucifiction is extremely agonizing, but once its over you're set. Especially knowing it is for everybodys sins. Seems like a really good deal.
And if like in a couple of years we need a new guy to die for our sins, i'll volunteer, i got a lot of free time. People act like it was such a hard thing to do, and i'm just not seeing why it is.
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And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
My body is a channel that translates energy from the universe into happiness.
I either express information, or consume it. I am debating which to do right now.
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SB2
The Tufted Titmouse that could
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Besides, he was lucky to get to do it.
How many people search their whole lives for meaning. Always looking for the answers to the question; Why am i here.
Honestly, i feel like if i were able to live and be, exactly what my intended purpose is, i had then lived a rich full life.
How lucky was Jesus to be able to fullfill his purpace.
What a lucky Bastord.
I say that, only because he was born out of wedlock.
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i will not cease in my never ending pursuit of the truth...
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Nomaken
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 10, 2005
Posts: 2059
Location: 31726 Windsor, Garden City, Michigan, 48135
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Being the second guy to die for our sins is one thing, but if i were jesus himself, i'd be all like, "Woooohooo!" Then i'd collapse again because being crucified is very tiring.
_________________
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
My body is a channel that translates energy from the universe into happiness.
I either express information, or consume it. I am debating which to do right now.
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Emettman
Microferroequinologist
Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 1027
Location: Suffolk, UK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: "Jesus dying for our sins." |
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| Nomaken wrote: |
Because seriously, if me and a bunch of other people are all standing around thinking, "Hey, we need 1 guy to die for all of our sins, we got any volunteers?" I'd probably be pretty close to the front of the line... People act like it was such a hard thing to do, and i'm just not seeing why it is. |
I'm taking you at your word: seriously.
The problem with anyone else volunteering to take on sins is, from the Christian perspective, that they don't have the capacity. Their spiritual credit cards are maxed out dealing with their own sins: "The wages of sin is death", basically.
The deal is, that it needs someone who doesn't have to die, doesn't have to pay for sin, to take on the load. (Official term "substitutionary atonement", I believe. There are other ways of looking at the crucifixion)
Under most versions of Christian theology even martyrdom, though a powerful demonstration of commitment to faith, does not earn salvation.
(To avoid confusion, I would not describe myself as a Christian, though I have studied theology quite extensively) |
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jdbob
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Jan 05, 2006
Age: 52
Posts: 197
Location: John Day, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't pretend to be an expert on christian mythology but I'm pretty sure according to that mythology he died because he pissed-off the government. |
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three2camp
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Before Jesus, when you died, you were dead. That's it. Period, no heaven, no hell, just ashes to ashes.
Not only did Jesus volunteer to be the first one to try this whole life-after-death thing, but he died because his father told him to do it. That's sort of a rough one there too - hey guys, glad to know you but God, my old man, says it won't be much longer...
So, there's more to it than just entering the Kingdom Triumphant (as a church once put it when a member died). |
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Asparval
The Big Chicken
Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 1175
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Question: Where in the bible does Jesus say he was going to die for our sins?
Answer: Nowhere! |
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Nomaken
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 10, 2005
Posts: 2059
Location: 31726 Windsor, Garden City, Michigan, 48135
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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If you told me the deal was "You have to die and stop existing, or suffer in hell for all eternity" i would still do it. Really doesn't strike me as a very hard decision. Of course i am totally at peace with my eventual death, and i have this tentative belief that i will stop existing when i do die, and if it turns out there is an afterlife, i'll be cool with that too.
_________________
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
My body is a channel that translates energy from the universe into happiness.
I either express information, or consume it. I am debating which to do right now.
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monastic
Forum Moderator
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Posts: 723
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I just wanted to add my thoughts on this subject. Here it goes;
Jesus on the cross cries out in anguish, (Matthew 27:46) “My God, My God why hath thou forsaken me?” This one sentence used to really creep me out because I used to think that God had truly deserted His Son at the worst possible time in His life. But later in my life I read the same sentence, surprisingly, in the Old Testament of the Bible. In Psalms chapter 22 the same phrase is spoken.
As I read this chapter, it became apparent that Jesus was not crying out in anguish over His fathers apparent desertion in His time of need, but Jesus (in a last ditch effort) was still trying to inform & enlighten others of what was really going on.
The first verse in Psalms utters the same line “My God, My God….” But later goes on to tell of the Crucifixion of Jesus in detail.
In verse 7, it states, “All they that see me, laugh to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head.” In verse 14 it goes on to say, “I am poured out like water, and all of my bones are out of joint” (which is what crucifixion does to the body).
Verse 16 says, “For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.” Verse 18 even talks of another thing that happened to Jesus (remember, Jesus had no beforehand knowledge of what they were going to do with Him and His few meager possessions) verse 18 states, “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.”
It seems to me that Jesus knew all along what was to become of him especially when He spoke the sentence that probably put His fate in motion. In John 2:19 Jesus said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” This infuriated the High Priests but they misunderstood. Jesus was not speaking about a building but about His body.
Just something else to ponder on if you're interested 
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Compressing the most words into the smallest ideas possible.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act. - George Orwell |
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Asparval
The Big Chicken
Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Posts: 1175
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Again, nowhere in the bible does jesus state that he was going to die for our sins. |
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Emettman
Microferroequinologist
Joined: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 1027
Location: Suffolk, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Asparval wrote: | | Again, nowhere in the bible does jesus state that he was going to die for our sins. |
It takes some effort to read John 3:14-16 as implying anything else.
Taken with "The good shepherd lays down his life for the the sheep" passage in John 10
and "The Son of man... to give his life as a ransom for many" Mark 10:45
The idea is clearly there in the bible, without reference to the epistles. |
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chamoisee
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 28, 2004
Age: 37
Posts: 922
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. When someone says that Jesus died for my sins, I'm thinking two things:
I never asked him to die for my sins. It isn't my fault that he chose to do so. I don't see why I should feel obligated to sacrifice my whole life on account of a guy who lived 2,000 years ago and thought he was god in the flesh dying for my sins.
And, so what? It may sound irreverent, but seriously, where was the sacrifice here? A little pain? Big deal. I'm sure that many women go through a lot more pain than that during childbirth, and we go through that in exchange for one person's sins (Eve)! Moreover, he knew beforehand that he wasn't going to really die, he was just taking a 3 day vacation from life (hey, sometimes I'd really like to do that!). Exactly what kind of a sacrifice was it if he wasn't really going to die?
It just really turns me off to hear "Jesus died for you." It sounds like some kind of a guilt trip. |
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monastic
Forum Moderator
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Posts: 723
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It just really turns me off to hear "Jesus died for you." It sounds like some kind of a guilt trip |
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Again, nowhere in the bible does jesus state that he was going to die for our sins. |
True. I feel it’s all not so much about Jesus’ death as it is about Him conquering Death itself. Jesus must have said much about conquering Death and “Raising” from the dead because after His death on the cross, instead of breaking His legs (like they did with most crucified people) they stabbed Jesus straight through the heart, just to be sure He hadn’t just passed out and then later could say He rose from the dead. As an extra measure, they rolled a huge stone in front of the place that they laid Him and stationed guards there so that no one could steal Jesus’ body and then later claim He had risen.
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Compressing the most words into the smallest ideas possible.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act. - George Orwell |
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kevv729
Shai-Hulud
Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Posts: 2850
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Asparval wrote: | Question: Where in the bible does Jesus say he was going to die for our sins?
Answer: Nowhere! |
I hope this can answer You question in Romans 5:8 in the last part of it, it states: "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.". In Hebrews 10:12 it states: "But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right of God.". Then in 1 John 2:2 it states: "And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's."
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Come on My children lets All get Along Okay.
http://www.pearlsofwisdom.forumup.com |
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Postperson
The Daughter of Indifference
Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Age: 51
Posts: 2908
Location: Uz
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: "Jesus dying for our sins." |
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| Nomaken wrote: | Who thinks this was important? Or impressive? Or hard?
Because seriously, if me and a bunch of other people are all standing around thinking, "Hey, we need 1 guy to die for all of our sins, we got any volunteers?" I'd probably be pretty close to the front of the line. Doesn't seem like a big sacrifice knowing there is existance post death. I mean, yeah, crucifiction is extremely agonizing, but once its over you're set. Especially knowing it is for everybodys sins. Seems like a really good deal.
And if like in a couple of years we need a new guy to die for our sins, i'll volunteer, i got a lot of free time. People act like it was such a hard thing to do, and i'm just not seeing why it is. |
This is so aspie. You know that no NT would ever express these sentiments. They are too afraid of death and too selfish. No wonder Nietszche described christianity as 'autistic'.
"Who thinks this was important? Or impressive? Or hard?"
mmmyeah, I do. I think he was showing us that life is an illusion and that one has to believe/know that it is an illusion to enter into the 'real' world. Essentially he's saying hang on to your faith no matter what they do or say, and showing us that this is the way (the door) to the exit out of this illusion called life. In this context the suffering and doubt is just his humanness coming thru, at that stage of his life I think he was both human and divine, so of course he was 'torn'. There's an interesting portrayal of the crucifixion in the Nag Hammadi: Jesus is seen in two places, his body on the cross and he is also seen in a tree laughing at the whole thing. I like this picture. |
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